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Waist steering and skiing cowboy. - Page 2

post #31 of 58

Simple

Someone PM'd me, and said my description
was far too complicated. Sorry all.

If you want to try Waist Steering, just
TURN YOUR WAIST.
post #32 of 58
Jasp, you can call me crazy too, because it makes sense to me. I was really viewing cowboy turns from an exercise perspective. What you describe as taking it further is how I view taking the new movements and blending them into our real world skiing.

On the issue of blending anchors, I feel this is nessasary to be an effective upper level skier. If I use cowboy turns as an exercise, it is to put new movements into the body so that the student, or myself, can get some new movements out of their body by blending and integrating those movements into their real world skiing. To me, one way this would show up is by being able to move between both ends of the body as anchor to blending in to varying degrees use of both at the same time, sequential or otherwise. To me this removes the either or, which allows the seamless integration of the two extremes into flowing versatile turns.

I guess I never thought of the cowboy turn as type of "turn", but as an exercise that can increase a skiers versatility and effectiveness by developing new and/or increasing the dynamics of movement patterns.

Not on the snow yet, so I can't test out the WS turn yet. Hopefully soon. Later, RicB.
post #33 of 58
Rick,
It seems the movements, and their purpose descriptions, are exactly those a skier would use to compensate for boots that have not been aligned properly, or are mis-aligned. If conflicting muscular pre-disposition is required to put the ski bases on the same plane, a balanced neutral stance is easilly not avaliable. All movements are then going to have some efficiency compromise due to the inside and outside legs working in conflict vs harmony.

Need to get on snow :
post #34 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
PS. Rick I will look for you At Loveland Saturday. Probably not before 8:30. I will PM my cell # to you, if you are there, give me a call.
We are thinking about driving up friday, will let you all know
post #35 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcmeister
Rick,
It seems the movements, and their purpose descriptions, are exactly those a skier would use to compensate for boots that have not been aligned properly, or are mis-aligned. If conflicting muscular pre-disposition is required to put the ski bases on the same plane, a balanced neutral stance is easilly not avaliable. All movements are then going to have some efficiency compromise due to the inside and outside legs working in conflict vs harmony.

Need to get on snow :
AM, when a racer is getting his canting checked the first thing the tech does is have the race stand on a plate and role the knees out to a sub-teylor NEUTRAL position (very similiar to the rooted stance). Then they take the measurments to see if the racer is right on or how many degrees each knee is off of TDC. The boots get ground and when done the skier when standing normally is zero or 1 degree out or whatever the racer/coach wants. This does not mean that once the skier gets on snow that they do not use knee angulation. Knee angulation is not the most efficient method of getting the skis on edge these days. Knee angulation can, however, adjust for boots that are not perfectly canted. In movement patterns where the outside knee is simply flexed, not angulated the cant becomes paramount for the racer to get the optimal edge engagement.

Skiing cowboy in the WS system is a beginning stage but the concept stays with the racer through higher level turns. Its all about edging, weight bias, edging the uphill/outside edge and how all the body parts work in harmony with the WS movment patterns.
post #36 of 58
Ric, I think we are on the same page with how that exercise introduces more activity in the lower body. Where does it go from there? For me it is important to remember that everything we introduce needs to lead back to everyday skiing and no exercise is a stand alone activity. Designing a progression that does this is what I am talking about. Again, I think we are on the same page and just saying it differently.
post #37 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcmeister
Hi Gary,
It would help me out, and maybe others as well, if you could clarify (or simplify), why we would want to stand on the outside of our feet, when our body's skeleton and muscles are so designed to most efficiently support our weight, and any additional loads we might encounter, by our sleletal structure naturally directing that pressure to the ball of the foot. Additionally, it seems both counter-intuitive (even counter-productive?) to have the muscles of both legs engaged to twist in opposite directions at the same time while skiing. Are you advocating engaging abductors of both legs at the same time (rotating both outward)? If so, where in a turn would you use this, and why, so as to accomplish what?
Am I missing that this is but an exercise leading to something else and not intended to be a way to ski?

If not please clarify what advantage you percieve to having both halves of the body (inside/outside) working in opposition and how that would be more efficient than both working together in the same direction, that of the intended turn?

Just curious about all this and interested in understanding the basis of this purportedly 'new' set of movements, where they are coming from, and why they would be percieved to be 'better' than what the best contemporary skiers are already doing?
Thanks,
Arc
thanks for asking that - I was just thinking the same thing - why do I WANT to stand on the outsides of both feet at once....
post #38 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Once a turn is initiated, yes, the cowboy stance is intended to supinate the inside foot to direct pressure to the engaged outside edge. However, on the outside foot the move is simply meant to eliminate non productive knee angulation and promote a stronger alignment that drives pressure to the inside edge of that ski through a more efficient structural alignment.

Many developing carvers are hampered by a knee angulated A-frame stance and a reluctance to move the CM laterally away from the vertical plane of the feet. Suggesting an image of skiing cowboy encourages a tipping of the inside shin which pulls the CM into the new turn, opens the kinetic gate for bigger edge angles, and eliminates much of the excessive and inefficient knee anglation.
OK - so this is like when my instructor would hammer me about remembering my inside foot? making sure I rolled it sufficiently to have it out of the way and the edge of ski engaged properly?
post #39 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
thanks for asking that - I was just thinking the same thing - why do I WANT to stand on the outsides of both feet at once....
I've already answered this but to help you understand think about what a boot fitter does when he is working on Canting. He has the skier stand on a level plate, he rolls the knees out over the outside of the big toes (sub-teylor neutral) and marks the centerline of the patella. He uses a plumb bob or other instrument to determine where in realationship to neutral the skier structure puts them (for instance 1 degree in on most women on at least one leg). When the boots are ground, the rise put on imagine the skier running straight down hill. If he knees are knocked in he will be up on the inside edges, slow. If he rolls his knees out so he is flat on his canted boots his skis will be dead flat on the snow (gliding and swiming).

Once we start turning everything changes because we are rolling our femurs in their hip sockets, using knee flexion, ankle flexion (supination or pronation) and moving our CoG to one side or the other in order to edge our skis.

We are not saying that in the context of, say a turn to the left, that we are rolling both legs outward, one is the other is rolling inward (outside femur). Let's take that right leg (the outside leg), eventhough we are rolling the femur to the left, creating some knee flexion while we put the ski on edge we do not need to pronate the ankle. We can accomplish great angles and still supinate the ankle in the boot. Why would we do this? To control how much load we want on the front of the outside turning ski.

Biomechanically, if one is simply standing in an athletic stance, one is in a more powerful position in a skeletal stacking sense with the knees rolled out and the weight being born on the outside of our feet. This does not mean that we have no weight on our big toes, we do, but we do not pronate our ankles to the inside as that is a weaker stance.

This is really ticky-tacky and really doesn't matter in the larger scheme of things - to be horribly honest.
post #40 of 58
I have had my canting checked repeatedly by surefoot after multiple requests from my instructor to recheck my alignment....

TOTAL WASTE OF TIME

My legs are > 1 cm different in length - have totally different weight distribution on them due to above etc etc etc.... so I could not even weight bear properly without having my pelvis rotate out of proper alignment...

but the gurus at Surefoot still swore I was perfectly aligned...

Oh & my rigth knee rolls in massively as soon as you make it bear a decent load - but I will always hold it straight (by pulling back through my hip to stabilise it) as I have spent a few years fencing with a french master of arms who HIT knees that tracked inwards on lunging....

I understand what they do when canting....

I still have no idea why you want me to stand on outside of both feet while I ski - especially as I spent a heap of time learning to stand on INSIDE of one of them
post #41 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow
ankle flexion (supination or pronation) .

ummm I thought I could flex ankle without supinating or pronating it....

in fact if I lie in bed & flex ankle it does not seem to make foot pronate or supinate
post #42 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow
Biomechanically, if one is simply standing in an athletic stance, one is in a more powerful position in a skeletal stacking sense with the knees rolled out and the weight being born on the outside of our feet. This does not mean that we have no weight on our big toes, we do, but we do not pronate our ankles to the inside as that is a weaker stance.

.
ummm - my right foot naturally weight bears SOLELY on the outside edge - it is my weakest foot balance wise despite that leg being my dominant side & much stronger from a muscular perpective also.....



Please explain
post #43 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcmeister
Rick,
It seems the movements, and their purpose descriptions, are exactly those a skier would use to compensate for boots that have not been aligned properly, or are mis-aligned. If conflicting muscular pre-disposition is required to put the ski bases on the same plane, a balanced neutral stance is easilly not avaliable. All movements are then going to have some efficiency compromise due to the inside and outside legs working in conflict vs harmony.

Need to get on snow :
Yes, Arc, the movement is similar, but the purpose and results are different. The misaligned skier must manipulate his structural alignment out of optimal to achieve a flat ski. The result is a rotated femur and projected knee, either in or out, standing on a flat ski.

Assuming a skier is well aligned, the above is not what skiing cowboy is about. Skiing cowboy actually promotes a structurally strong skiing position. Parallel shins do not necessarily translate to a strong position. We've all seen the heavily knee angulated skier making carved turns with parallel shins and his CM above his feet. Are his skis carving in harmony? Sure. Is he in a strong stance? Not on your life.

Skiing cowboy encourages that skier to drive his outside knee out of an angulated position, and toward a more structurally aligned position with the foot and hip and knee residing on the same linear plane. That change in structural alignment removes unhealthy torque from the knee, and requires the CM to be moved further inside to create similar edge angles, which in most cases creates a better balanced relationship between the CM and the Point of Pressure.

The outside driving of the outside knee is not intended to go beyond optimal structural alignment, it's intended to establish it in the overly outside knee angulated skier. It's not designed to direct pressure to the little toe side of the outside foot, that would only serve to drive the ski off its inside edge. What it's meant to do is eliminate unnecessary, counter productive knee angulation, and direct pressure to the inside edge of the outside ski through a nicely aligned outside leg.

The inside knee is cowboy driven inside to help pull the CM into the turn and keep the edge angle of the inside ski in relative harmony with the tipping outside ski. This prevents the inside leg from locking up further tipping of the outside leg and inward movement of the hips/CM, and it opens up the potential for the utilization of big edge angles.

This movement pattern does not subject the inside and outside legs to a contentious relationship. In contrast, it places the outside leg in optimal alignment, and moves the inside leg into a position that allows for (and promotes) the assumption of that optimal position in the outside leg. It also allows the inside ski to track in harmony to the outside ski.

For many skiers this harmonic relationship between inside and outside legs, and CM, is a very foreign concept and sensation. Skiing cowboy can provide an easy introduction to this important element of advanced skiing.
post #44 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
ummm I thought I could flex ankle without supinating or pronating it....

in fact if I lie in bed & flex ankle it does not seem to make foot pronate or supinate
Fore aft vs. lateral
post #45 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
ummm - my right foot naturally weight bears SOLELY on the outside edge - it is my weakest foot balance wise despite that leg being my dominant side & much stronger from a muscular perpective also.....



Please explain
take a photo of you standing on that leg and I'll be glad to comment. I can't see your alignment from the hip down to the leg nor what you are doing with your upper body. Give me something to work with
post #46 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
I have had my canting checked repeatedly by surefoot after multiple requests from my instructor to recheck my alignment....

TOTAL WASTE OF TIME

My legs are > 1 cm different in length - have totally different weight distribution on them due to above etc etc etc.... so I could not even weight bear properly without having my pelvis rotate out of proper alignment...

but the gurus at Surefoot still swore I was perfectly aligned...

Oh & my rigth knee rolls in massively as soon as you make it bear a decent load - but I will always hold it straight (by pulling back through my hip to stabilise it) as I have spent a few years fencing with a french master of arms who HIT knees that tracked inwards on lunging....

I understand what they do when canting....

I still have no idea why you want me to stand on outside of both feet while I ski - especially as I spent a heap of time learning to stand on INSIDE of one of them
I don't want you or anybody to stand in any particular way, I was discussing one issue and not something to be construed as the end all be all. I have no idea what level skier you are. Are you a racer, a master racer. Why do I ask this? Context on how I deal with your questions. Screw Surefoot. Sounds like you got chowdered over there. Why they (those "salesmen" at Surefoot) do canting may be for the right reasons but not done the right way - who knows. Hey, maybe you needed a taller riser on one boot than the other? I doubt it for 1 CM difference, that's pretty typical. I had mine done by them, my equipment worked well and now I've had the full World Cup treatment with tons of explanation of why we were doing each thing in relationship to how I ski and and what I ski in the Rossi Race Room. What's that? Where all the FIS Juniors go to get their boots fit and skis selected.

I suppose the only point I can possibly get across to you is, if you were a speed event racer, how would you stand when gliding in a deep tuck? How would you stand when you did not need to turn but run straight. Think that through and if it doesn't hit I simply don't have an answer that will satisify you within the context of the large picture I'm dealing with - Ski Racing Technique A - Z.

Also see Rick's Post above. He is right on the money. I will only add that at the top levels racers are playing with supinating the outside foot (roll towards little toe) while having knee flexion to fine tune their carve or to stop chatter. Its called feathering the edge.

No disrespect intended here. Some of the things that Rick, Ricb, JASP, Heluvaskier, BioWolf and others are discussing are cutting edge RACING related techniques and probably has very little interest to non-racing skiers. We should keep that in mind. That doesn't mean what we have been presenting should be ignored by the lower level skier, that's totally up to them, but it doesn't need to be scrutinized by skiers who have no context to apply the concepts that are being discussed. What's the point?
post #47 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
OK - so this is like when my instructor would hammer me about remembering my inside foot? making sure I rolled it sufficiently to have it out of the way and the edge of ski engaged properly?
Exactly, Disski.

Also, if the inside shin is not tipped in accompaniment with outside leg it can block the lateral inside movement of the CM, and require outside knee anglulation to achieve further increases in edge angle. This torques/stresses the knee, and on shape skis usually leaves the skier out of optimal balance. Yuk!!
post #48 of 58
Quote: Gary D
"When the boots are ground, the rise put on imagine the skier running straight down hill. If he knees are knocked in he will be up on the inside edges, slow. If he rolls his knees out so he is flat on his canted boots his skis will be dead flat on the snow (gliding and swiming)."

I'm not too clear on what this says. If the skier is aligned neutral (center of knee over center of boot/ski) and they stand knock kneed, the skis will go together because ther're on their inside edges. On the other hand if the skier relaxes in a straight run (flat skis) and the knees are together and the skis apart, that means the knee is inside center. Conversley if the skier is bowlegged the skis will usually go together because the knees are outside center. At least that's what I've found in the last 25 years of boot grinding.

As far as "cowboy" goes Arc got me playing with it almost 20 years ago and I've been teaching some variation ever since.
post #49 of 58
Slatz, I think it has been around a long too. Longer than 20 years.

For me, the most important reason to use cowboy turns as an exercise is for the movements that happen. Just skiing with feet wider than the hips forces most of us out of our natural stance. We make adjustments to our stance so our skis will work effectively. We break out of our preffered muscle memeory patterns and venture into new patterns and/or greater range of motion in our movements.

For most of us our range of motion in skiing is defined by the movements we make in our everyday skiinig. Just like everything else we do. It is very hard to increase our range outside of this range simply by asking our body to give us more while we are in the thick of actual skiing. Cowboy turns effectively take us out of normal range in stance and movements when done effectively introducing and forcing multiplanar hip and leg movements through a range of motion while skiing in a controled enviroment. We increase the range of motion effectively available to us by forcing the body to work at it's eextreme.

Disski, I think this is the real point of Rick and Gary's use of this exercise. For me, the CoM movement is but an outcome of the increase of the range motion one can use effectively after they have expanded it by this exercise. The real meat of this to me is the increase in real world multiplanar movement we realize beyond our normal muscle memeory range. Ski enough of these turns in a controled practice setting, and it becomes easy to take it into our real world skiing.

The movements we get out of the body are the movements we put into the body.

In tai chi like in skiiing knee alignment is huge. a common mistake made is that as the feet seperate futher apart, the knees drop more to the inside. This is a weak alignment as Gary said. It is not about standing on the outside of the foot, but more about keeping the knee perpendicular to bottom of the feet so the load is spread out on the entire foot, not just the ball of the foot, and the knee is not stressed by medial torque. Opening of the hips (kua) is required for a structural effective stance. Not so hard while standing still, but introduce movement like rotation and lateral ab/aduction, and things become harder, simply because it is outside of our normal range of movement.

Maintaining open hips while moving in multi planes in the hips/leg joints effectively takes much effective practice. Introduce knee and ankle movements into the equation, and it becomes even harder. It is all worth it though and does give us a greater effective range of motion to opperate in. It is very hard to opperate out to 100% range of our motion, which is why we need to increase our range out beyond what is normaly needed so we have more usable range. We expand our muscle memory and soft tissue limits. In my oppinion, cowboy turns are one effective way to introduce this in our skiing. In this particular area, there is also huge transfer from tai chi to skiing also. later, RicB.
post #50 of 58
Once again saved by one of my buddies. RicB's comments are excellent. I apologize that I got frustrated to Disski.

RicB's explanation as to why we developed "skiing cowboy" is correct. The big difference between our skiing cowboy and the existing cowboy turns exercise is what Rick said in his eariler post, we do not use a exessively wide stance (and of course the WS movement pattern).

Good comment RicB and thanks!
post #51 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Exactly, Disski.

Also, if the inside shin is not tipped in accompaniment with outside leg it can block the lateral inside movement of the CM, and require outside knee anglulation to achieve further increases in edge angle. This torques/stresses the knee, and on shape skis usually leaves the skier out of optimal balance. Yuk!!
OK - got that image (feeling) down pat.... not so much of an issue these days - but yes was a BIG problem for me.... leaving inside leg means I can't get where I want to be balance wise....

I can imagine it being more of a problem as I would get even further in - not a problem last 2 years as we have more stuff to work on than getting my butt to snow for no other reason than to be there.

Trouble is that feels like 1 leg pronated & other supinated to me - not like 2 feet on outside edges....


OUTSIDE KNEE ANGULATION - blah! Every so often one of the non-regular instructors (usually older) tries to get me to do this more - feels like a weak position for that leg to be in & I do not enjoy it very much.... (Feels like I am getting pushed backwards too??? - maybe cannot get hips in right position)
post #52 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB

Disski, I think this is the real point of Rick and Gary's use of this exercise. For me, the CoM movement is but an outcome of the increase of the range motion one can use effectively after they have expanded it by this exercise. The real meat of this to me is the increase in real world multiplanar movement we realize beyond our normal muscle memeory range. Ski enough of these turns in a controled practice setting, and it becomes easy to take it into our real world skiing.

The movements we get out of the body are the movements we put into the body.

In tai chi like in skiiing knee alignment is huge. a common mistake made is that as the feet seperate futher apart, the knees drop more to the inside. This is a weak alignment as Gary said. It is not about standing on the outside of the foot, but more about keeping the knee perpendicular to bottom of the feet so the load is spread out on the entire foot, not just the ball of the foot, and the knee is not stressed by medial torque. Opening of the hips (kua) is required for a structural effective stance. Not so hard while standing still, but introduce movement like rotation and lateral ab/aduction, and things become harder, simply because it is outside of our normal range of movement.

Maintaining open hips while moving in multi planes in the hips/leg joints effectively takes much effective practice. Introduce knee and ankle movements into the equation, and it becomes even harder. It is all worth it though and does give us a greater effective range of motion to opperate in. It is very hard to opperate out to 100% range of our motion, which is why we need to increase our range out beyond what is normaly needed so we have more usable range. We expand our muscle memory and soft tissue limits. In my oppinion, cowboy turns are one effective way to introduce this in our skiing. In this particular area, there is also huge transfer from tai chi to skiing also. later, RicB.
Thanks Ric

Just the way Gary wrote it sounds like how he wanted us to ski doing WS turns not like an exercise to do....
I understand doing range of movement drills - it is one way I have been taught how to move - I just did not get that from gary's posts

I am thinking maybe I tend to stand more this way anyway.... I have VERY loose groin muscles & quite tight hamstrings... so if you ask me to stand "balanced" I am likely to stand quite wide with knees& toes OUT rather than in... also my comfy position to reach the ground is a deep squat on my toes (poor range dorsiflexion means heels do not reach ground) - I will happily cook etc like this when camping...

Maybe teh fencing promoted this also - allowing knee out of alignment with foot was a BIG no-no for us....

If I want balance I tend to be feeling for my soles - so this would match with your stance.... I know the surfing coach in Canaries was surprised at the amount of stabilty I have when we do "pushing practice" - trying to shove each other over after we have jumped to riding stance. My balance is so poor - but I suddenly gain compared to the others in this sort of stuff.... My biggest problem is to overcome my panic mechanisms(flail arms & stand) - then my body resorts to the learned movements & stance that work quite well due to the training
post #53 of 58
I must admit I am lapped by both RicB and Rick "Fast man" in how they express their constructs compared to my attempts. Though I know what I am trying to say very well - having invented a good part of it, my communication skills still needs honing. I will continue to work on getting my posts across in plain terms. Sorry for the confusion.

Your comment about outside leg knee angulation is right on. As the knee bends forward so must the hips move back. As the bent knee rolls in so must the upper body lean out. Not optimal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
Thanks Ric

Just the way Gary wrote it sounds like how he wanted us to ski doing WS turns not like an exercise to do....
I understand doing range of movement drills - it is one way I have been taught how to move - I just did not get that from gary's posts

I am thinking maybe I tend to stand more this way anyway.... I have VERY loose groin muscles & quite tight hamstrings... so if you ask me to stand "balanced" I am likely to stand quite wide with knees& toes OUT rather than in... also my comfy position to reach the ground is a deep squat on my toes (poor range dorsiflexion means heels do not reach ground) - I will happily cook etc like this when camping...

Maybe teh fencing promoted this also - allowing knee out of alignment with foot was a BIG no-no for us....

If I want balance I tend to be feeling for my soles - so this would match with your stance.... I know the surfing coach in Canaries was surprised at the amount of stabilty I have when we do "pushing practice" - trying to shove each other over after we have jumped to riding stance. My balance is so poor - but I suddenly gain compared to the others in this sort of stuff.... My biggest problem is to overcome my panic mechanisms(flail arms & stand) - then my body resorts to the learned movements & stance that work quite well due to the training
post #54 of 58
yes also feels like pelvis cannot be rotated to correct position with that leg so bent in???? (Maybe - I need to try on snow to be more sure)

I just feel really BAD about the concept having been taught to ski otherwise...
post #55 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
yes also feels like pelvis cannot be rotated to correct position with that leg so bent in????
That's a good question. With the knee bent and rolled in the femur is at a forward orientation to the hip socket, it pretty much locks the pelvis in a slightly open position. In WS the femur is aligned more on the vertical plane of the skier and allows one to do two things, tip the pelvis up and forward (very hard to do from a knee angulated position) and square up the pelvis with the turn after the APEX.

Also with the knee angulated turn we are putting a lot of stress not just on the knee but also on the quads, hamstrings and Psoas muscles. This leads to fatigue of the muscles more rapidily and makes adjusting for snow conditions, terrain or other environmental obstacles more difficult.

This is what I believe without playing with it on snow, some of you guys that are already out there check this for accuracy.

As of right now Dr. Liz and I are planning on being at Loveland for some early season traiining. Let us know who wants to meet us there. We will know for sure by tomorrow if we can get out of here. Also, what are the current conditions at Loveland, can we bring good skis?
post #56 of 58
G-man,
The snow was firm but grippy. Wet and warm snow that got pounded into the man-made. It cooled off a lot in the afternoon so the overnight snow should have a chance to set up and cover the slick spots. I liked the snow because it is keep you honest stuff. We worked on some thing I want to share with you next week when you are up here. BTW nice direction for this thread. I would suggest to some of the participants to go out and play with the maneuvers we have been talking about.
Exploring and guided discovery activities will help them understand it because the theory runs counter to a lot of what they have learned over the years. My daughter described it as tasting the cake instead of reading the recipe. See ya next week, if you make it over this way....
post #57 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
G-man,
The snow was firm but grippy. Wet and warm snow that got pounded into the man-made. It cooled off a lot in the afternoon so the overnight snow should have a chance to set up and cover the slick spots. I liked the snow because it is keep you honest stuff. We worked on some thing I want to share with you next week when you are up here. BTW nice direction for this thread. I would suggest to some of the participants to go out and play with the maneuvers we have been talking about.
Exploring and guided discovery activities will help them understand it because the theory runs counter to a lot of what they have learned over the years. My daughter described it as tasting the cake instead of reading the recipe. See ya next week, if you make it over this way....
We're coming, will be there Friday through Sunday. Fastman should be with us as well. We will be at the upstairs cafeteria 10am each day. Can't wait!!!
post #58 of 58
FastMan will be there too.
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