New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

History of the phantom move

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 
Harald Harb gives an interesting explanation of how he came upon it.
http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?t=628&sid=afaea1728a052b50362b5d39a7 0e0d1b
Note to all you "guests", if you want to post there, you now have to register.
post #2 of 16

Rick and HH agree

Actually what HH said is that Rick and I were talking about 2 sides of the same movement pattern. It's turning into quite an interesting thread.

I started one on ILE which from what I understand so far their positions are different. But come on by and check it out.
post #3 of 16

Where's the garbage?

Well thank goodness we know what HH really thinks about the quality of our forum. Come on people, don't let Harald down. Please pile on the trash!

Quote:
You have to remember this was a time when PSIA instructors, even examiners, did not notice or identify skiers who stemmed to begin turns.
I wonder what time this was? A long time ago, we used to have a "Stem Christy". Hmm - can't imagine PSIA people not noticing stem initiation back then. Ever since I joined PSIA (1994), a stem was not "current" and definitely was not something you could get away with in a "proper" parallel turn. This was before shaped skis. Harb's book was written in 1997. He has stated that PMTS was born of the shaped ski technology.

Trash item: At last year's Pro Jam, a demo team member encouraged us to make wedge turns with a stem initiation and mentioned that this might be a useful move to be able to do under certain circumstances. Oh the horror!

Quote:
developed the Phantom Move as the backbone of my Direct Parallel system
Now where's that other thread where someone said "the phantom move is not something I would point to as "the" basic premise " (Si's post is #24). I guess we can throw that one on the trash heap too.


Quote:
but again I came from the race community, where we have higher standards.
....
I believe this is the case for most ski racers. They really don’t realize what they do, they just go out and do it.
Now there's a high standard for you. Maybe we'll just recycle this instead of throwing it in with the rest of the garbage?

Back in the beginning of shaped ski time, I took a clinic from an Elan sponsored PSIA-E examiner when our resort bought Elan SCXs specifically so that we could teach shaped ski specific lessons. Although we were not taught the Phantom Move, we were not taught stemming or "wedge steering outside ski initiation" either. Harald's perceptions of the state of instruction back then make a legitimate case for creating PMTS and the Phantom Move. Although my perceptions of those days are totally different, I was far from Harald's world and my standards are much lower.

Thanks for the link. Perspective and history are alway educational. Now where's that horrible smell coming from?
post #4 of 16

My Harb Story

TheRusty,

I'm gonna put you down as a PMTS doubter. scribbling note therusty is not a harold harb fan got it.

I gotta tell this story again. True story. Really!

I met Harb and Diane once at Loveland. Very good skiers, BTW. I was with SCSA and he was just creaming his knickers to introduce them to me. Or is it the other way around? No matter... For those who don't know SCSA, he is a fanatical PMTS supporter. Fanatical is not an overstatement. I have heard it all. "Ski with your feet closer together." "Do a phantom move, Nick." "You can do it." "Paul", I said... "I've been doing that phantom thingy since the phantom was lil' Casper the flickin' Ghost. "Leave me alone."

So we siddle up to Harold and Diane. SCSA says "Hey guys, how's it going. Blah, blah, blah... Oh, by the way this is my friend Nick." They take one look at my tele gear and nod ever so slightly with obvious distain.

SCSA is dying to strut his stuff. "Hey guys, watch me and tell me what you think." SCSA takes off and makes a few turns and then stops at the bottom. Harold looks at Diane and mumbles something. I pretend not to care. I really don't care. Then Harold says to me "Tell Paul his feet are too close together".
I laughed and spit at the same time. They looked a little disgusted at my epilleptic reaction and skied away without a word.

Now I should say that SCSA has really come a long way in his skiing ability... IMVHO. In fact, I would say that there are many would be level III PSIA instructors who wish that they could ski as well as SCSA. He has really found his mojo.
post #5 of 16
Seven, Diane is a very good tele skier from what I understand. Tell Paul to take the corn cob out of is ars and his feet will move appart a bit.
post #6 of 16
This whole PMTS/PSIA thing has become so old...

HH is a good marketer who feeds on creating conflict. His main attraction is to those who need an "us vs. them" tension and dynamic. I enjoyed the above-mentioned discussion on the Real Skiers forum very much. Why? Because Fastman made it an actual DISCUSSION. No name calling or snide comments. Then HH starts in about the "garbage" over here and I start to remember his unending and untrue dogma about what PSIA teachs (stemming, skidded tails, twisting and skidding to turn, etc.). For the umteenth time, when he cites that straw man as PSIA "teaching," ridicules it, and then offers his more attractive alternative, OF COURSE students will follow. The problem is that PSIA DOES NOT TEACH THAT! I have no problem with HH presenting his own ideas of what constitutes good skiing. Let him attract followers and test out his theories on the hill. Let him make a fortune! Fine! Just don't propagate lies to do it!

The move that Fastman, John, HH, etc. are discussing is something I have played with in PSIA and independent clinics for years. Collapsing and tipping the old support foot to help move the CM down the hill as pressure moves to the new support foot has a lot of validity. PSIA instructors use it, or a variation of it, all the time. I've had it presented in PSIA clinics for years. Perhaps HH needs to try to convince his acolytes that he is the only one using it because if they found out plenty of dreaded PSIA instructors also do, and have for years, he would lose them. There is nothing wrong with HH trying to present a structured, coherent progression that leads to good skiing. Many students yearn for that. Many PSIA instructors answer that need and present a similar progression. They may also digress from that progression if a particular student needs it. Some lessons start the teaching of good skiing movements using the security of a wedge. Not a braking wedge, a gliding wedge. The difference is critical. Every expert skiing movemrent can be initiated from a wedge. (A brief digression: Tell someone to make the best parallel turn he/she can on a gentle green run. Then tell that person to make that same parallel turn AS SLOWLY AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE. If they do, a wedge will form. It's an inevitable result. Try it.) PSIA teaches a gliding wedge and suggests instructors use it as needed. If we get an ex-hockey player, we often will skip the wedge stage because it's not needed IN THAT INDIVIDUAL CASE. PSIA has a concept called Guest-Centered Teaching. Boiled down, it means make the lesson fit the needs and goals of each individual guest. A good instructor has the knowlege and ability to do this.

It just bugs the hell out me that HH presents his progression as a jihad against the unenlightened infidels. Open-minded, constructive discussion and testing of different approaches, in my opinion, is a hell of a lot more fun.

End of rant. I'm skiing with SCSA at Loveland this week. (We get along just fine!) All infidels and acolytes welcome.
post #7 of 16
Eh Pierre... That's why he's always grinning that million dollar smile!

Mike M... I like Paul too ...in very small doses. Jus' joshin' buddy.
post #8 of 16
Hi Seven,

Well I've stated my position about HH in the past. Simply put, I believe that there is stuff of merit in what he preaches. It's his denigrating approach to PSIA that makes me cautious of joining the cult. I tried merely to point out obvious inconsistencies without being directly insulting. Mike_m has more eloquently pointed out the example of how HH's perceptions are inaccurate. It's one thing to be wrong about something. It's quite another thing when you are wrong and insulting about it. And when your points can't hold water, you can't admit it and you can't even accept that reasonable people can hold a different opinion, then it calls into question the validity of everything you are trying to say. Trust is hard to earn and easy to lose.

Yes, I'm a doubter. Per Ott's and Mike_m's observation, there is a wealth of success waiting to be tapped, if only the jihad could be called off. I want PMTS to succeed beyond a small niche. PSIA needs a healthy competitor. It's true that one mans garbage is another mans treasure. HH's approach only makes it more fun to poke holes in it. As I've poked holes into PMTS I've discovered a little garbage and a little treasure. The only difference about PSIA is that I've discovered a lot of both instead of a little.
post #9 of 16
Just cruisin' by. Don't think I know any of you cats. First time I heard of the "Phantom foot" was in 1993-4 by a cool dude called Gootz. PSIA-E guru. We were on Elan 123 cm's and carving down Sheer Bliss at Snowmass during an event called Profest. Anyway, it is for sure a classic movement pattern in effective skiing and really has great application in the bumps...Greg
post #10 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by GR8TRN
Just cruisin' by. Don't think I know any of you cats. First time I heard of the "Phantom foot" was in 1993-4 by a cool dude called Gootz. PSIA-E guru. We were on Elan 123 cm's and carving down Sheer Bliss at Snowmass during an event called Profest. Anyway, it is for sure a classic movement pattern in effective skiing and really has great application in the bumps...Greg
hmmmm........must be harald's cousin
post #11 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason
I started one on ILE which from what I understand so far their positions are different. But come on by and check it out.
I'm fairly sure that HH does not undestand ILE
post #12 of 16
Nice post Mike M,

Quote:
The move that Fastman, John, HH, etc. are discussing is something I have played with in PSIA and independent clinics for years. Collapsing and tipping the old support foot to help move the CM down the hill as pressure moves to the new support foot has a lot of validity. PSIA instructors use it, or a variation of it, all the time. I've had it presented in PSIA clinics for years.
First encountered it skiing with a PSIA-E eximaner about 1986 or "87. She explained it is something like standing on the 2 sides of a canoe and tipping it from side to side. Hmmmmmm maybe it has been around a lot longer than some people think.

gr8trn, I have skied with "gootz" a few times. We had a blast.
RW
post #13 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White
Hmmmmmm maybe it has been around a lot longer than some people think.
It has been. I can assure it was known of in 1984.
post #14 of 16
The following was posted at realskiers;

I find it as usual, fascinating that few discussions are based on the beginning releasing moments, ( Si discusses) from the old stance ski to the little toe edge tipping movements of that ski, and how new outside ski balance is established.

Why are we cruising around that issue? It is fundamental to modern skiing, most skiers don’t have it and PSIA still doesn’t teach it. It is opposite of all TTS teaching and it is as dramatic a shift in understanding and movement as right brain to left brain thinking.


does PSIA still not teach it?

is it the opposite of all TTS teaching?

how would the author know?

if not true why would the author write such things?
post #15 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
The following was posted at realskiers;

I find it as usual, fascinating that few discussions are based on the beginning releasing moments, ( Si discusses) from the old stance ski to the little toe edge tipping movements of that ski, and how new outside ski balance is established.

Why are we cruising around that issue? It is fundamental to modern skiing, most skiers don’t have it and PSIA still doesn’t teach it. It is opposite of all TTS teaching and it is as dramatic a shift in understanding and movement as right brain to left brain thinking.
From my perspective, this post at Realskiers is a straw man argument. I've got a Real Answer.

I've taken lessons over the years from PSIA guys and gals, and from instructors in Europe. Each instructor explained, demonstrated and went over with me various release moves, transfering from old to new edges, foot pressure, weight transfer, body position, etc. The PSIA can be faulted, in part because it's a large organization, in part because the pedagogy of skiing has changed over the decades and all instructors are not on the same exact page. But, the array of instructors I had here with the PSIA and over in Europe could not be faulted for not teaching various releases, a wide array of tipping moves, and setting up a new outside ski that you are balanced on.

The Phantom Move seems like "the answer" for intermediate skiers who are instantly helped with their poor body mechanics by the simplicty of lifting the inside heel, keeping it in the same plane as the outside heel, and tipping it to the outside. It's a good alignment move as one of many to find your center. A European race coach told me it's been around at least 40 years, widely used by the Austrians a long time ago. But skiing has progressed. There are are other ways to get better results for both on snow feel and better ski techniques. Turning by solely relying on the Phantom Move will get your turned, but not as precisely and efficiently as advanced skiing requires. Asserting something through marketing doesn't make it real, you know.
post #16 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcat
The Phantom Move seems like "the answer" for intermediate skiers who are instantly helped with their poor body mechanics by the simplicty of lifting the inside heel, keeping it in the same plane as the outside heel, and tipping it to the outside. It's a good alignment move as one of many to find your center. A European race coach told me it's been around at least 40 years, widely used by the Austrians a long time ago. But skiing has progressed. There are are other ways to get better results for both on snow feel and better ski techniques. Turning by solely relying on the Phantom Move will get your turned, but not as precisely and efficiently as advanced skiing requires. Asserting something through marketing doesn't make it real, you know.
I completely agree, this makes a lot of sense. My experience is quite similar. The Phantom Move is a techinque for intermediate skiers. PMTS is clever marketing, nothing more.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching