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New Rossi Scratch and violence against women - Page 2

post #31 of 57
Quote:
I don't think you give nearly enough credit to 16 year-olds. First of all (speaking as a 16 year-old) we're not nearly impressionable enough to go out and kill women just because of the inkblot graphics on our skis.

Second, "Rad" went out with big hair and techno.
Zacman: I think you misread things.
A)I think most teens are way smarter than most adults give credit for. The fact is, though, if adults are offended - alot of kids will buy on that, you don't sound like one of them. Likely why you're here and not at newschoolers.com. Actually, I totally agree with you on the part about the inkblot not making you want to slash your gf - kind of my point.
b) "Rad" was used because it is so dated.
post #32 of 57
Is it possible that this is a huge deal because the ski is targeted at adolescent males? I mean, when all the horror movies came out, no one was making a huge deal about women getting their throats slashed.

I don't think it's good, but I don't think it's that big of a deal either. I wouldn't cry about it if I saw it in an art store, but it is indeed troubling that something like a ski, not exactly a canvas (how many skis are really artistic; most are uggggly) needs this type of artwork.

One issue is that it's public. When I listen to rap music that's violent I'm not exposing it to people that don't want to hear it. I'm not on the chairlift with a boombox blasting NWA, with a middle aged woman next to me. No one on the lift or at the mountain has the option of not looking at it.
post #33 of 57
Rossi was smart. This was not a good choice of battlefields.
post #34 of 57
We are approaching a dangerous time in this country. One where some people would have government legislate bans on obsenities, depiction of violence, porn, shock jocks, boobs exposed at the Super Bowl, magazines and books that are deemed not suitable to all of the consumer public.

There is a fine line between between our rights that are guaranteed in the Constitution of our great country, and what some think we should be reading, watching and doing.

Sounds to me like most of you would gather up all the Scratch BC's and burn em like the Nazi's did with the books.

Blown out of proportion people!

Are not ever going to watch the Super Bowl again just because J.J. exposed her Boob?

Are we going to Boycott CBS for not stopping in in Tape Delay?
post #35 of 57
This is a little bit different than that. If you don't get that, it would be impossible to try to explain it to you
post #36 of 57
hey Zacman, on my demo trailer i have the TM eyes as a graphic and one of my neighbors came up and asked me if i worked for Alice Cooper, after i stopped laughing i told him i worshipped satan. Just Kidding, abut the satan, not the neighbor.
post #37 of 57
If you don't like the ski, they prob were not ment to be marketed to you anyways. I bet 93.782% of you people who dont like it never set foot on a twin tip.
post #38 of 57
Quote:
Originally posted by Lars:

Blown out of proportion people!

Are not ever going to watch the Super Bowl again just because J.J. exposed her Boob?

Are we going to Boycott CBS for not stopping in in Tape Delay?
I LOVE IT, great point!
post #39 of 57
Sorry Jeff. Maybe I was feeling a little too serious. I can defintly see where you're coming from. If my Dad said that, I defintly wouldn't buy the ski. Heh. Does it make me a depraved Satan worshiper that I could build that much into the TM graphics? Hum.......

Hey ejc,
Can you hook up a demo date at Obergatlinburg? That would be so sweet.... Make sure that you get all Dyna's new Twins in there. But seriously, if you're in the slightest iota interested, the hill's website is www.obergatlinburg.com .
post #40 of 57
Lars, I do understand where you're coming from. If the government banned this, I'd be pi$$ed. However, it is a free country, and people can and may "vote with their feet". Rossi knows this, of course, and chose wisely. The "General Motors of skiing" serves a really broad market and has a lot of not-pi$$ing-off to do. What they'll do about the jerk who offered the description of the graphic remains to be seen. Without that, we'd have no story here.

By the way, Lars - GLAD TO HAVE YOU BACK IN A SPIRITED DISCUSSION! Reminds me of the old days when we really knocked heads over things like (gasp!) RAMP ANGLE!!! HA!
post #41 of 57
[quote]Originally posted by JeffW:
Quote:
I too would prefer a world where violence of all types was unacceptable, but focusing on something like this isn't the way to that end.
The best way to keep a 16 year-old off of the new Scratch (assuming you're over 30): slide up beside him in the ski shop and say "Rad graphics on the new BC, might have to grab a pair myself"
Actually, this is way to that end, as demonstrably proven by the fact that Rossignol is no longer going to market the ski in question. Point settled. Moral virtue, when acted upon, produces results, especiall when it coincides with the bottom line .

Benjamin
post #42 of 57
Since Lars hasn't bothered to respond to my earlier critique of his post, I have to comment on his latest statement.

1. We are approaching a dangerous time in this country. One where some people would have government legislate bans on obsenities, depiction of violence, porn, shock jocks, boobs exposed at the Super Bowl, magazines and books that are deemed not suitable to all of the consumer public.

A: No one has suggested a governmental ban -- that would be inconsistent with the liberties afforded under the First Amendment. Rather, we have discussed using our pocket books to postively affect our culture. In this case, citizen concern worked and the offensive graphics were pulled. Don't dramatize that which hasn't been suggested. Also, please remember that the First Amendment does not protect obscene speech and only offers marginal protection to indecent communication. So, JJ's breast exposure and other such acts receive limited, if any, protection under the Constitution. Our Framers drafted the protection to establish the freedom to discuss political issues without fear of governmental reprise.

2. There is a fine line between between our rights that are guaranteed in the Constitution of our great country, and what some think we should be reading, watching and doing.

A: Again, you confuse the issue by suggesting governmental action. We are discussing private citizens acting here with no implications as to rights conferred under the Constitution.

3. Sounds to me like most of you would gather up all the Scratch BC's and burn em like the Nazi's did with the books.

A: Again, an appeal to an extreme argument that is not supported by our discussion. This demonstrates a propensity to personally attack individuals rather than address their substantive issues. This is perhaps because the position you maintain is untenable.

4. Blown out of proportion people!

A: Simple catch phrases do little to persuade, Lars. Rather, substantive comment on the issues presented would be suggested. How can one reasonably favor the depicition of murdering women as a recreational sport like skiing? I have failed to see how this view is upheld.

In the end, Lars, your basic contention is refuted. Graphics and images do carry and express meaning. For example, most people would object to skis with pictures of child pornography or dead American soldiers on them. Under your view, these are "just graphics" and we have no right to judge them. But we do have a right to a shared moral consensus and we can value, for example, the dignity of women in our society, the value of life, etc. We throw ourselves, our morals, and our culture into a veritable trash can when we ignore these warning signs and fail to stand up for basic notions of decency and moral virtue. By failing to stand up to depictions that are objectively evil, we consent to the depiction and their acceptance in society.

In the end, consumers and decency won. Acting upon our morals proved effective.

Cheers,

Benjamin
post #43 of 57
I hope that the reason why some people find this acceptable is because the graphics are still somewhat subliminal. Should the graphics depict clear images of violence, then hopefully there will be no argument. Still, defending these graphics makes no sense to me.

Sadly this shows just how important graphics are for the young and impressionable bozos out there. There seems to be no limit to the crap they will put on a ski to differentiate themselves from the rest.
post #44 of 57
Wait a minute! I thougt everyone here skis on K2 XP's, 724 Pro's, or B2's? I thought the Pocket Rocket was the only 90-mm + waist ski folks paid attention to on this board?

Okay, enough sarcasm...bad choice of graphics...even worse idea to attempt to explain it on tape!

As a result, I will not buy Rossi's next year. (I want a Gotama anyhow...)
post #45 of 57
Isn't this great Oboe, just like the old days yes! Actually, you know how fond I am of the Bandit series. My Son has the Scratch BC and they are super fun. Anyone who boycotts Rossi is only hurting themselves. But, you know me I just like to rile things a bit. If someone hadn't explained the graphics, I wouldn't have been able to tell.

I've argued with people like Ben while on patrol. Must be a Philadelphia Lawyer. No offense Oboe.

Anyway Ben, don't try to explain my feelings about the whole matter. You don't know what's inside my head. Nor do I care about your explanation either.
post #46 of 57
No offense taken, Lars. I'm not from Philadelphia!
post #47 of 57
Quote:
Originally posted by Lars:
Isn't this great Oboe, just like the old days yes! Actually, you know how fond I am of the Bandit series. My Son has the Scratch BC and they are super fun. Anyone who boycotts Rossi is only hurting themselves. But, you know me I just like to rile things a bit. If someone hadn't explained the graphics, I wouldn't have been able to tell.

I've argued with people like Ben while on patrol. Must be a Philadelphia Lawyer. No offense Oboe.

Anyway Ben, don't try to explain my feelings about the whole matter. You don't know what's inside my head. Nor do I care about your explanation either.
I'm just making sense of your ramblings, Lars, since you will not. I'm trying to find the point at which you agree a certain graphic is offensive and why. But you fail to otherwise engage in dialogue, preferring instead to issue monologues non-responsive to issues raised in this forum.

I think we've reached an end of this topic. I've enjoyed the contributions of members of Epic.

And, by the way, I'm an attorney based in Chicago, not Philly. [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]

Benjamin
post #48 of 57
Lars: Is there anywhere that I can go where I don't have to be subjected to your values?

Do I have to be on my guard at all times ... and yes I have small kids ... where your beliefs won't be in my face?

You wanna get funny in the back of the adult book shop ... that's fine by me! But, why do I have to pur filters on my life so you can have "full expression"?

All "Id" .... no brain or what?
post #49 of 57
yuki, I suppose if you hung out at Pouter you could escape my ramblings. That would be up to you.

I go to Church most Sundays and have values and cherish my freedoms. No I don't hang out in porn shops. But enjoy my freedoms.

I just think that there was an over reaction of the graphics on the Scratch. I don't think the intention of Rossi was to promote violence against women or instill violence in the minds of our youth. If there wasn't an explaination of the graphics, how many of us would have noticed.

Bad taste on behalf of Rossi, Damn French anyhow!

Over-reaction by the members of this forum but that's your right to do that.

I think the lack of snow in wisconsin has got Benji a little into the mood to try to read my mind.

I knew you were a Lawyer, Psych Major no doubt!

I'm a little testy too but I'm off to Colorado in the morning to ski what's left of Steamboat and the Sumwhat areas.

I'll do some turns for you Oboe.
post #50 of 57
Lars and I have clashed, argued, and laughed for a long, long time. For those of you who don't know him, he LOVES to stir the pot - and in this case stimulated further development of the topic. That's just his nature, like it or not. He really is a very decent person, and he, together with Pierre, are the reasons I was persuaded not to quit skiing (I was extremely frustrated by my own level of performance) - and this after we'd all fought like cats and dogs.

I see he hasn't changed since some years ago - but now that I understand him better, he doesn't have any irritating affect on me. Whether or not we agree on any particular subject has become irrelevant to our friendship.

But, jeezum, Lars! Damn French?! Both of my wives (no, not at the same time) are from French families, and so my boys carry that blood. And what's this about "Lawyer, Psych Major no doubt!" You remembered!

Enjoy those Colorado turns, old friend. Wish I were there.
post #51 of 57
Quote:
Originally posted by oboe:
Lars and I have clashed, argued, and laughed for a long, long time. For those of you who don't know him, he LOVES to stir the pot - and in this case stimulated further development of the topic. That's just his nature, like it or not. He really is a very decent person, and he, together with Pierre, are the reasons I was persuaded not to quit skiing (I was extremely frustrated by my own level of performance) - and this after we'd all fought like cats and dogs.

I see he hasn't changed since some years ago - but now that I understand him better, he doesn't have any irritating affect on me. Whether or not we agree on any particular subject has become irrelevant to our friendship.

But, jeezum, Lars! Damn French?! Both of my wives (no, not at the same time) are from French families, and so my boys carry that blood. And what's this about "Lawyer, Psych Major no doubt!" You remembered!

Enjoy those Colorado turns, old friend. Wish I were there.
Perhaps Lars does "stir the pot." Unfortunately, he does not support his reasoning, thoughts, or comments on the subject with any backup discourse. Nor does he answer questions about his unsupported positions. I had hoped for more reasoned discourse from him but he has ignored my questions and thoughts -- not too much pot stirring going on there.

As to Lars' thoughts that Rossignol did not "intend" for the graphic to mean that then why was there a Rossignol Rep. saying exactly what it represented? Again, as I've pointed out so many times before, Lars' position simply is not supported by the facts.

Benjamin
post #52 of 57
My brother attorney Benjamin, there are more ways than ours for people to express their thoughts. You're very skillful and succint, and some others are not as skillful or succint or trained in our discipline, and some just prefer other ways.

With regard to gratuitous violence, if I may, let's not beat a dead horse. You've made your point, counselor. I've made mine.

Peace.
post #53 of 57
Once again we place blame on corprate marketing instead of common sense and moral values being taught to todays impressionable youth.There are a hell of a lot more kids being shot in school today than there was back when toy guns were cool and not politicaly incorrect.Of course you could argue that its because of the glorification of gun violence in todays movies and music,but if you really look back at old westerns and country music not alot has changed.I watched some Tom+Jerry in my youth and never once thought that if I smacked my brother in the face with a frying pan that his face would assume the shape of the pan and then upon shaking his head would resume back to normal.Ricochete rabbit had special bullets that would turn corners and such in order to reach there target.Yosemeti Sam was very well armed and pulled his gun often,did I ever think this anything more than humor even at ages 7-10.NO.So what has changed?
post #54 of 57
I have simply enough of this benjamin givin lessons to everyone.
post #55 of 57
Lars
EpicSki Supporter
Member # 92 - Advantage Lars
Posts: 1600 - Advantage Lars
Registered: Dec 1999 - Advantage Lars

VS.

Benjamin
Member # 5571
Posts: 40
Registered: Feb 2004


My money on Lars...Like his input and enjoyed him from the beginning. After all...it is just a pair of skis!!!
post #56 of 57
Ben is well spoken but this ain't no courthouse.
I vote Lars
post #57 of 57
Ben,
You make excelent and orderly points, but they're presented in a somewhat "courtroom" manner that isn't really appropriate for here. It just sounds kind of condescending. Also, if your points are truly solid enough to be conversation-ending, then they'll speak for themselves. You shouldn't have to.
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