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Duct tape boot shims

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
If you have had any experience experimenting with "ramp angle" or "delta" - by which I mean the angle of the boot sole relative to the ski - please share your experiences. I plan to use duct tape for starters, and sjjohnston has posted the thickness of shim needed for 1, 2 and 3 degrees here: http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...268#post345268
post #2 of 22
I wouldn't go thicker than 3mm when experimenting with the duct tape shims, if putting the shims between boot and binding.
post #3 of 22
post #4 of 22
Thread Starter 
Thanks, jstraw, that's what I'm talking about - and I have read the article previously.

I think that evaluating ramp angle on a skier just standing on the floor in ski boots may not give the same impression as the skier gets when actually skiing.
post #5 of 22
oboe,

Yesterday it was an important day for me. I modified my boots so that i am now balanced on my skis. It was the last step but it worked for me. I added 4mm home made lifters under the toe of my boots. I know it is not for the faint at heart because it was possible to ruin my boots (new boots, never skied in them). What you could do is use home made plastic lifters (3, 4, 5 mm) and put them under the sole of your boots (depending on your needs) and use duct tape to hold them. Then, try the new setup.
Keep in mind that the ramp of your bindings (delta angle) is important. In my case, the new stance the boots put me in felt amazing but when i put the skis on they did not feel quite as good. I had 0 delta (toe and heel at the same height). I removed one of the lifters from under the toe of the binding and voila! i felt balanced. One of the benefits (we all know how important it is to have a balanced stance so we can ski our best!) is that if you are balanced, you are also using the skeletal strangth more and this will result in more energy at the end of the day.

IMO, the delta angle, ramp angle and the height of the lifter are interrelated. Forward lean can also play an important role in this setup.

In my case, the new lifter under the toe put me in a great stance but, as i said, it did not do well with the delta angle and the forward lean so i had to remove one of the lifters.

So, my recommendation is that you use home made lifters which are not very thick because you want to avoid toepiece problems and then play with different setups.

I know it is not for the faint at heart and probably most people don't do the things i did (i also dropped the heel of my bootboard, cut the lower and put the rivets (which came in the box) in). Was it worth it? Every second.
post #6 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by oboe

I think that evaluating ramp angle on a skier just standing on the floor in ski boots may not give the same impression as the skier gets when actually skiing.
This is probably true for Diablo owners. I heard many people saying that the stance feels a bit weird at first but it seems to solve itself as one spends more time on snow. But in my case i wanted to be balanced!
post #7 of 22
Now i noticed you said in the other thread that your boots have interchangeable toe and heel lugs. this is good. Plugs do not have these lugs and you have to build them to suit your needs. I do not know how durable and how thick those lugs are. Do you have Lange?
post #8 of 22
Thread Starter 
Yes, Lange 120 Comp MF (medium fit) in a full size smaller than I've been using all these years.

The lugs are quite thick and look durable.
post #9 of 22
I'm pretty sure that Benny told me that you can't "lifterize" the Lange replaceable lugs. You can only change them for the other lang lugs such as the 1.5 degree canted lugs. For shims under the toe, you can use a material called Bontex which doesn't compress as mush as ducttape. Also, as a side note, last year, I did a binding test on my "ghetto cants" - duct tape canting shims on toe and heel of the bindings (markers, btw). I got the same release values with up to 12 strips of tape as with no tape at all, so I don't think we need to be too concerned about binding function. Not with Markers anyway.
post #10 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by oboe
If you have had any experience experimenting with "ramp angle" or "delta" - by which I mean the angle of the boot sole relative to the ski - please share your experiences. I plan to use duct tape for starters, and sjjohnston has posted the thickness of shim needed for 1, 2 and 3 degrees here: http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...268#post345268
I did this last year and it worked quite well. My fitter and I got close and then I played around on the slope. The duct tape will compress and sometimes doesn't stick well especially when cold, but it worked fine skiing for a few days and varying the angles. It was amazing the difference that even one layer of tape will have!! And also interesting to switch skis and see what happens when you exagerate misalignements (or explore different POVs w/ respect to wether the corrections should be inside or outside, but I won't start *that* thread again). It will interfere with the AFD, but I didn't have any significant problems. And I ended up with an angle that improved (IMO) my skiing dramatically. Personally the sign to me that I had dialed it in was that I am now able to ski one-legged throughout the turn when before I had a lot of trouble with this.
post #11 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic
I'm pretty sure that Benny told me that you can't "lifterize" the Lange replaceable lugs. You can only change them for the other lang lugs such as the 1.5 degree canted lugs. For shims under the toe, you can use a material called Bontex which doesn't compress as mush as ducttape. Also, as a side note, last year, I did a binding test on my "ghetto cants" - duct tape canting shims on toe and heel of the bindings (markers, btw). I got the same release values with up to 12 strips of tape as with no tape at all, so I don't think we need to be too concerned about binding function. Not with Markers anyway.
My Langes 120 MF came with 2 sets of lugs, I one that was flush with the boot sole and one that was about 4 mm higher..
post #12 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodro
My fitter and I got close and then I played around on the slope.
hmmmmmmmmmmm

:
post #13 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by oboe
Yes, Lange 120 Comp MF (medium fit) in a full size smaller than I've been using all these years.

The lugs are quite thick and look durable.
If you walk on them without Sno-cats they wear out quickly.

Not trying to be negative hear but I sold my 120 MF's after 1 season. they packed out quickly and dramatically & the flo liners leaked badly. Lange did replace the entire liner for me and I immediatley sold the boots and switched to Salomon X2 soft (iitsy-bitsy thin liner). 100 days on them NO PACKIN at all!
post #14 of 22
[quote=Atomicman]
they packed out quickly and dramatically & the flo liners leaked badly. Lange did replace the entire liner for me and I immediatley sold the boots QUOTE]

oboe, do not read this! If i had new boots and someone would tell me this i would not be happy. But it's the truth.
post #15 of 22
[quote=sywsyw]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
they packed out quickly and dramatically & the flo liners leaked badly. Lange did replace the entire liner for me and I immediatley sold the boots QUOTE]

oboe, do not read this! If i had new boots and someone would tell me this i would not be happy. But it's the truth.
sorry, to be the bearer of badnews but after 10 days the slop was ridiculous. Too cushy a liner! but damn warm & comfy!
post #16 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scalce
hmmmmmmmmmmm
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?
post #17 of 22
Thread Starter 
epic, that's not what the same Benny told me - he said I CAN get front and back lift lugs. What he did say was the cants come in only 1.5 degrees either side, so you get 1.5 or nothing. After a lot of looking, testing, and standing on some computerized gizmo showing my weight distribution on my feet, we agreed I need no cant (side cant) with these boots.

Guys, these boots are a full size smaller than what I've been using for all fourteen years of my skiing. Cushy they are not. I had them fitted while wearing a VERY, VERY THIN pair of socks. I have absolutely not a worry in the world about these packing out. In fact, I'm counting on at least some of that.

I do use cat tracks, for sure.

If Lange replaced liners that were obviously defective, that's encouraging. I also believe in Benny Wax's excellent reputation of thirty years. He will see that I'm in boots that can and do work for me.

I'll keep you guys posted.
post #18 of 22
Not to hijack this thread but I have a quick question.

Are Cat Tracks necessary for someone that does not walk a ton on the gravel and concrete?

Also my new boots have rubber type toe and heal lugs.
post #19 of 22
Thread Starter 
If you're walking on snow and don't slip a lot, who cares?

If you're walking from the locker room across a gravel parking lot to the slope, the cat tracks are great.
post #20 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by oboe
epic, that's not what the same Benny told me - he said I CAN get front and back lift lugs. What he did say was the cants come in only 1.5 degrees either side, so you get 1.5 or nothing.
Just to clarify, I meant that he said he cannot add lift to existing lugs. I hadn't heard of the prelifted lugs, but I'm glad to hear they exist. The question now is do they have lifted, canted lugs? Not that you'd need them, but it does make me wonder.
post #21 of 22
Oboe,
My experience all the way through LIII cert was "you're in the back seat". Adding 5mm of toe lift finally led to a "your stance is just right" from a demo team member.
The quick way to determine where you need adjustment is to drop a line (plumb bob) from your knee cap to the top of the boot. The knee cap should be over the space between the first 2 buckles. If the line is in front of the 1st buckle you need toe lift. If behind the second buckle add heal lift.

If your knee is to far forward, you probably compensate by moving hips farther back. (My case.)(Also, reduce forward lean of the cuff first if possable.)
If the knee is to far back, your stance will be to upright.
Monday evening I enjoyed a presentation from Jeannie Thoren (former D team member and a driving force for women specific equipment and how to adjust equipment for women.
One of the things Jeannie mentioned was that in a smaller boot, ie:womens smaller sizes,the effect of ramp angles is exagerated. To me this means your results will be more dramatic then it might be for a guy, although we almost all benefit from finding proper alignment. Jeannie is also a strong advocate of heal lifts in the boot for women. This is to compensate for a lower and rearward center of mass and provides for more flex at the ankle.
Good luck!
post #22 of 22
Oboe,
Sorry for the double post
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