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Cut Tickets--ethics - Page 3

post #61 of 403
telerod15, everyone is a scofflaw to some degree, I suppose, even if speeding on the highway unintentially. If you want to start another thread on another way to break the law, I'm sure it would be interesting. Speeding is definitely a law honored more in the breach than in the observance. To me - maybe not to others - there's a distinction between speeding on the highway and selling/buying/using a used lift ticket.

I suppose you could go to a food consession on the mountain and conveniently slip away without paying for the food you took. It's not murder, but it is theft.
post #62 of 403
Or you could eat the french frys that are left on a table in the cafeteria. Speed kills. I'd rather share a lift ticket, but yes we choose which laws to obey, that's called freedom. If you don't like it go to Iraq.
post #63 of 403
Also, you are using more gas when you speed which equals more pollution and more dependance on foreign oil in addition to greater chance of fatality if a collision occurs.
post #64 of 403
Tele - that's why there's a freakin law!
post #65 of 403
Great, a law against freakin? That's why there is civil disobedience!
post #66 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinn
This whole thread is pretty interesting with a lot of interesting tangents.

Regarding paying on federal lands, I believe you're right. It just comes down to material use and the fact that lift tickets fall under contract law. Ski areas can prevent you from accessing terrain, but that's another topic. The problem is, you really could get busted for it. I imagine if a ski area dispatches patrol to check on you to make sure everything is alright (are you hiking up hill for help? is your friend dead in the woods? etc) then that could be considered material use. YMMV and some areas are known to be friendlier than others. It's possible for them to restrict access, so play nice.
I really would like to understand some of the finer aspects of what a ski area can and can't do. For instance, if I hike up a trail not on the ski area, and then end up on a closed ski trail and run into ski patrol, what are they going to do? They can't take away a lift ticket I never bought. But could they call security? I dunno. I'll through another one out that I'm still trying to figure. You go to Killington mountain biking and if you choose not to use the lifts and climb, you still have to pay. Not sure I understand why (unless you actually cross some private land owned, but I doubt it). Anyone know how that works?
post #67 of 403
"we choose which laws to obey, that's called freedom. If you don't like it go to Iraq"

-telerod15

"Freedom's untidy, and free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things.

-Donald Rumsfeld
post #68 of 403
Dog, I can answer that one for you. If I were the Patroller and caught you on a closed trail, the first thing I would do is introduce myself to you and ask you if you realize that you are skiing a closed trail. After listening to your answer, I would then ask to see your lift pass. If you could not produce one I'd ask how you managed to get on the lifts without a lift ticket or pass. After hearing you answer of the hike I would call the security office to notify them of the situation and explain the situation. They would tell me that mountain patrol will be there in a few minutes to pick you up because skiing you to the office without a lift pass could be a liability to the Resort. They would take you to the office where the resort manager would be present along with other security and the dispatcher. You would probably be questioned and explained to the dangers of your actions to yourself and others and the consequences of theft of services and tresspassing. If you were cooperative and calm, you would be offered a settlement choice. Most likely, purchasing two all day passes. One would be attached to a violation report of the incedent with your personal I.D. address, phone, license and photo, etc. Usually, the other pass you purchased could be used to ski the resort for the remainder of the day. Some times it doesn't end that way and You would be held for the State Police and charged and arrained at the local J.P.

This is fact. I've done it before. It's not fun for any of us. I've had people ski away from me trying to escape. All it takes is a radio call to the mountain crew at the bottom of the hill and other patrollers with security personell and there's really no need to chase anyone. People whotry to escape or get beligerent are delt with in only way, the State Police.

Incidents like this were the down side of patrolling. One I don't miss.
post #69 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstraw
"we choose which laws to obey, that's called freedom. If you don't like it go to Iraq"

-telerod15

"Freedom's untidy, and free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things.

-Donald Rumsfeld
Freedom is having the choice to do right or wrong.

Confinement is wishing you had made the right choice when you were free.

Lars
post #70 of 403
Freedom isn't free. You gotta pay the price, you gotta sacrifice for your liberty.

-New Christie Minstrels
post #71 of 403
Find the cost of freedom, buried in the ground

-Graham Nash
post #72 of 403
Lars, you were hall monitor. If you had confronted real criminals, you might not be telling the story.
post #73 of 403
When you buy a lift ticket, you are buying the right for the ticket holder to use the services of the ski resort for the day. Selling or giving your lift ticket to someone else represents the exchange of your right to use these services for someone elses right to use them.

The fact that the ski pass is marked as non-transferable creates an inbalanced market. When you leave the ski resort you are choosing to no longer use the service of the resort, which you had paid to still be able too. You not selling your pass to someone else represents an inefficient deadweight loss of value.

If it is against the law and you do it, you are breaking the law or voilating the agreement you entered into. That unambiguous.

I think a more interesting question is should we accept the fact that passes are nontransferable.

A likely scenario if lift tickets were made transferable is that the cost of the lift ticket would initially rise because the number of lift tickets the resort can sell at full price would go from reasonably infinite to a limited quantity.

The upside would be you only pay for the skiing time you used and the ticket price would continually fall all day until it eventually hit 0. If you only wanted to pay $10 to ski, you could get a lift ticket, but you would probably only get the last hour or two of the day. The downside would be the cost would likely rise for people that ski the entire day.
post #74 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars
.... I've had people ski away from me trying to escape...
From "Things only a police officer can say"

#3. Can you run faster than 1,235 feet per second?

#9. Don't Run, you will only go to jail tired.:

#12. The handcuffs are tight because they are new. After you've worn them awhile they will get comfortable.
post #75 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15
Lars, you were hall monitor. If you had confronted real criminals, you might not be telling the story.
Real criminals don't ski.
post #76 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars
Dog, I can answer that one for you. If I were the Patroller and caught you on a closed trail, the first thing I would do is introduce myself to you and ask you if you realize that you are skiing a closed trail. After listening to your answer, I would then ask to see your lift pass. If you could not produce one I'd ask how you managed to get on the lifts without a lift ticket or pass. After hearing you answer of the hike I would call the security office to notify them of the situation and explain the situation. They would tell me that mountain patrol will be there in a few minutes to pick you up because skiing you to the office without a lift pass could be a liability to the Resort. They would take you to the office where the resort manager would be present along with other security and the dispatcher. You would probably be questioned and explained to the dangers of your actions to yourself and others and the consequences of theft of services and tresspassing. If you were cooperative and calm, you would be offered a settlement choice. Most likely, purchasing two all day passes. One would be attached to a violation report of the incedent with your personal I.D. address, phone, license and photo, etc. Usually, the other pass you purchased could be used to ski the resort for the remainder of the day. Some times it doesn't end that way and You would be held for the State Police and charged and arrained at the local J.P.

This is fact. I've done it before. It's not fun for any of us. I've had people ski away from me trying to escape. All it takes is a radio call to the mountain crew at the bottom of the hill and other patrollers with security personell and there's really no need to chase anyone. People whotry to escape or get beligerent are delt with in only way, the State Police.

Incidents like this were the down side of patrolling. One I don't miss.
I figured that would be the result, but how are the laws written? My understanding is that on federal land you can't keep people off it. Are there special laws written for ski areas that allow them to restrict people or actions (i.e. closed trails)?

BTW, I'm not condoning this kind of behavior, I'm just trying to understand that if you can't charge someone to be on federal land, how can you stop somebody from using it or in the case you described, actually put someone in the clink?
post #77 of 403
Hey Onyxjl,
At those areas that have limited ticket sales (to supposedly keep lift lines short) Are there scalpers in the parking lot selling $60 tickets for $90???
post #78 of 403
Recently, I took my kids to Seaworld. When we purchased the tickets for the day, our picture was taken and placed on the ticket. This is one way for the mountain to get around the non-transferable issue. At first, I didn't think that it would be practical. However, it took no extra time, at all.
post #79 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canyons
Recently, I took my kids to Seaworld. When we purchased the tickets for the day, our picture was taken and placed on the ticket. This is one way for the mountain to get around the non-transferable issue. At first, I didn't think that it would be practical. However, it took no extra time, at all.
To say nothing about how much niftier a souvenir the ticket is.
post #80 of 403
Yeah, well put Lars. I was speaking out of turn. I don't ski closed trails and borrowed lift ticket only once. A friend (cute girl) looked at me funny when I asked her how she can afford to snowboard, she doesn't buy lift ticket. She is very young and innocent looking and just gets on the lift!

I almost never break rules of the mountain. I buy my ticket.
post #81 of 403
Dog, I am not a Lawyer but I would say that any ski area on federal land would require the resort to lease the land for the amount of time the resort would be in operation. The reason ski areas like Steamboat close down at a certain date every year reguardless of the snow cover. Usually because of the start of Elk migration. By leasing the land, it becomes a private property issue controlled by the Resort for it's exclusive use for the period of the lease. This would alow them to put whatever restrictions on the property they want.
post #82 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstraw
What is the legal disposition of unused days on a multi-day ticket?
tough shyte.

who FORCED the multiday ticket on the buyer? the buyer him/herself.

what makes people try to get sneaky with this?

you should buy the ticket that represents what you intend to do. and you should arrange your availability and ability to suit the ticket you bought.

as Lars said, if something foul should happen -- illness, emergency calling you away from the mountain, an injury during skiing that forces you to get off the skis and off the slopes -- then take it up with the management, tell them your situation, and perhaps, if they value their good name, they'll make it right. I know that where I ski they would make it right, but I can't speak for every ski area in the world.

last season I was skiing at Club LT and hit a compression unexpectedly, whacking my chin against my kneecap. the chin burst open and bled all over. I went to the Patrol hut and got some butterfly stitch bandages, and the Patrollers told me that if I wanted to get a part-day refund (this was about 1pm) the mgmt would give it to me. I didn't feel too bad so I took a few more runs, went in for a late lunch, and then left after that lunch. I had my day's enjoyment and felt it would be unfair to try to get them to reimburse me for the "unused part."

honestly, what causes people to think they should chisel on the ski area?
post #83 of 403
You buy six days, ski four and sell two. Boo Hoo.
post #84 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogwonder
I figured that would be the result, but how are the laws written? My understanding is that on federal land you can't keep people off it. Are there special laws written for ski areas that allow them to restrict people or actions (i.e. closed trails)?

BTW, I'm not condoning this kind of behavior, I'm just trying to understand that if you can't charge someone to be on federal land, how can you stop somebody from using it or in the case you described, actually put someone in the clink?
most ski areas operating on USFS land are operating under a lease granted by the USFS. the lease typically gives the ski area operator a fair amount of leeway on how to allow skiing, whom to exclude, when passes may be pulled, etc.

the areas I know and ski wouldn't care if you hiked to the top and skied down for every run, and avoided a lift ticket that way.

but again, ski hills closer to more urbanized areas might treat this issue differently.
post #85 of 403
Absolutely Gonz, The resort where I worked will I know that for a fact. I also got a refund on two days of a four day pass at Steamboat a few years ago. I told them I was leaving two days early for Summit County because the conditions were much better there. They gave me a refund to my credit card. True story. There's no need to scam anyone just be truthful about the situation.
post #86 of 403
It had honestly never occured to me that a ski area would buy back unused portions of single or multi-day lift tickets. It sure never was brought to my attention either, when I broke my arm in Vail or when I blew my knee at Telluride. I would assume that if someone had two unused days on a 6 day ticket it was because something cut the trip short. Selling the unused days would only seem like an alternative in the absence of an awareness that the area operators would offer to buy back the remainder.

Even so, reselling an unused skier-day, the whole thing, not trying to get two skiers onto one day's lift access, seems no more like "chiseling" to me than reselling a concert ticket at face value. If the ski area serves a single skier on that day and was paid for a day's access, how are they being chiseled?
post #87 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
most ski areas operating on USFS land are operating under a lease granted by the USFS. the lease typically gives the ski area operator a fair amount of leeway on how to allow skiing, whom to exclude, when passes may be pulled, etc.
It would be interesting to know if this is explicitly called out in a lease or permit or if it is silent and the FS just looks the other way. When I spoke to the FS, they were clear on charging fees for access, but I never probed on the rules for access restriction. It completely makes sense, but not a lot of the government does. Maybe I'll drop a line to the USFS and see what they have to say...
post #88 of 403
Is it wrong? Definitely. Have I done it? You bet, every chance I get. There are many rationalizations. The best one is that my local area sells tickets cheaper in other markets so that there is no way I can legally get a lift ticket (without moving) for the price they are selling it to people in other cities to intice them to ski here. They are using the same lift, slopes and facilities for a cheaper ticket price. Is that ethical? In addition, the snow reports are outright lies that have enticed me to skip work to ski snow that is not there. I am only treating the area the same way they treat me. They are only interested in my money, not being ethical.

I may not go to heaven but I am going to do all the skiing I can as cheaply as possible.
post #89 of 403
1) It's amazing, just amazing. There are people on this board that are actually proud to know that they, themselves are dishonest. How can dishonest behavior make someone proud?

2) From the previous thread - If you don't like the resorts policies, all of a sudden it is OK to be dishonest. My mother must have led me astray.
WOW!
post #90 of 403
Mudfoot,

No wonder people like me give their ticket away to the poor boy on the street. That stinks, capitalist bastards!

Sounds like Killington.
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