Cut Tickets--ethics - Page 6

False analogy. You own the fries when you buy them, they're a good, not a service. And if the proprietor doesn't limit how much you can put on your burger, then they don't.

How about two people sharing a salad bar plate?

Boy, this is a hot topic. To me, there really isn't too much of a dispute that Non-transferable tickets are exactly that. That is the letter of the law. However,
for most people, they live by what they think is fair (whether it is legal or not).

Going a few miles over the speed limit is illegal, but in most situations the cops won't ticket you. Everyone sort of lives with "a few extra miles" is fair.

For most, stealing a ski pass is unethical, but buying a half used full day ticket maybe OK. (I have never done that mind you) For me, my sense of fairness is influenced by whether I feel I am being ripped off. I will always willingly pay full fare at Alta. At Vail, I wish there was a way to save money, esp. with the food. Their prices are "unfair" in my opinon.

Out of curiosity, I don't have a ticket to check, but does the fine print say, non-transferable only after being punched? Once before the lifts opened, someone offered to sell me a ticket they bought the day before that was going to go unused (last day of the season). Is it legal to buy an unused ticket? Technically, that is a transfer.

I do understand that my thinking is flawed. But really a clipped ticket is not that big of a deal, especially at Vail. Please don't get me started on that place. They should have scholarships for the destitute college kids and other ner-do-wells! And we should pay for it in the form of a buck surcharge. Oh yeah, we do!

I do think off track about things like this. One day I gave a lady a $5 and she gave me change plus a $20.00 bill. She wasn't too good with math. Before I knew it I fessed up and told her she had given me too much change. I could hardly sleep that night.

The way I see it, the fraud at Vail has little to do with clipping tickets in the parking lot. It's the counterfit season passes and the like that really bugs them.

I know all of this stuff is wrong no matter how you spin it. But it's wrong including the husband and wife with the sick kid. I just think that there are varying degrees of bad behavior and a clipped ticket or a poached run is all part of owning a business. Especially if it's a Corp like Vail or one of the other larger operations. I do make a distinction between those places and the smaller more down to earth mountains.

You know, if you pull that crap at one of the big ones they are more likely to throw the book at you.

Give me a freaking break

Flawed, flawed, flawed. By your logic, it's OK to steal an apple from Wal-Mart but unacceptable to steal that same apple from the Mom & Pop operation on the corner.

As far as scholarships for the destitute college kids, well, they do have them. Aside from ACTUAL college scholarships given to employees and their dependents as well as local high-school kids, they also offer COLLEGE PASSES at dirt cheap rates. I couldn't find their college pass price online, but they offer a pass to college age people for $699 (good for Vail, Breck, A-Basin and Keystone), as well as a pass for $359 that's available to anyone (Keystone, Breck & A-Basin only).

I'd imagine you're right on this one.

Again, horribly flawed thinking. Taking that notion to it's logical extreme, I shouldn't feel bad about robbing Bank of America as long as I leave the local Credit Union alone.

Unfortunately, life isn't fair. CT just instituted a law requiring drivers to use a hands-free headset while talking on a cell phone. I think this is stupid, b/c I maintain that it's not the act of holding the phone but rather the conversation itself (as well as dialing) that distracts drivers. I've yet to purchase a hands-free unit, so if I get pulled over for talking on the phone while driving, I'll be looking at a $100 fine EVEN THOUGH I WAS NO MORE OR LESS DISTRACTED than the guy blathering away hands free next to me. That's not fair! Unfortunately, the legislature, police, prosecution, and judge don't care. Now that I've dispensed with the patronizing cliche...There is a way to save money on food at Vail: Bring your own. Some of the best food I've ever had at Vail was eaten miles from any on-mountain eatery (out at the camp area in Blue Sky).

While the price of food at Vail may be "unfair" in your opinion, that's how free markets work. When enough people decide to vote with their wallets & NOT purchase food from Vail, the prices will be adjusted.

To be honest, I didn't think the food prices at MidVail were any worse than most other areas I've seen...Two Elk was a different story.

This is easy.

The question you are asking is "do you respect the resort enough to follow their rules, and not rip them off"?

Easy answer for me. Yes. I am not interested in ripping anyone off. Megaresort or a Ma pa place.

When I was 16-22 and skiing out west with friends, I would do it all the time. It was my only way to get on the slopes and I did what I needed to do.

Once I got a job and could buy my own beer I bought my own tickets also. I don't get mad at those who play the game (OK, I must admit I laughed at a guy in a hummer last year when he was trying this at a resort I liked) but I don't think the Karma will flow if I did it myself.

As for the mega resorts. No soul. It is as simple as never going back.

I agree life isn't fair, but some of us try to live with a sense of fairness. I think it fair to pay some taxes so a government can function. I think people who can successfully shelter all their income so they don't pay taxes, are being unfair. It may be legal, but unfair to the rest of us taxpayers. (Of course, I know in a court of law, fairness means squat. Who wins the case means everything.)

IMHO, The Two Elks lodge food prices are "unfair" because VAIL has a monopoly, and they have chosen to exploit that. There is no competition in that location on the mt. I can choose not to eat there, but it doesn't change my perception of price gouging.

In general people will happily pay for fair value, but reluctantly pay for unfair value (and grouse about it when they do).

God you are presumptuous! I just got a raise, now I'm up to a staggering $8.44/hr (the highest paying job of my life), and you want me to buy lift tickets for "unfortunates". Hey, if I had a dollar for every time in my life I gave away my LAST dime I could buy some people some lift tickets (I'm not exaggerating either). I lived on the streets for years and literally gave the clothes off my back to someone who was colder than I was, I gave my sleeping bag to someone who had theirs stolen, because I knew a friend would let me crash in his couch that night. I lived without income and ate out of the garbage. It was a hard thing getting to where I could ski again, but I did so. I know what being really unfortunate (down on your luck so to speak) is, and someone who wants to hang out in a ski area parking lot looking for a cheap ticket doesn't qualify.

I used to go to Grateful Dead shows and sold beadwork until I could buy a ticket to get in, sometimes it didn't happen. I even gave away the tickets that I earned this way to others sometimes. There were those who made counterfit tickets to cheat their way in. I was very poor then, and I thought cheating to get in sucked. My feelings haven't changed.

Absolutely. Different story entirely. I'd do that even if I wasn't working for the resort. #1- It's probably a more serious offense, and possibly very much so.
#2 - Hunting instinct . No time to think about it - he's already getting away. #3 - A likely innocent victim probably needs somebody to do this since he can't. #5 - Anybody who'd flee from an injured victim is needs a severe beating, which he won't get if he escapes.

Sorry there if I read a little too much into it. I don't think I stated that you actually physically grabbed anybody, I was just concerned that some resorts may encourage over-zealous actions in similar situations. You would probably agree that that has happened at times.

It seems that in your case, you're well informed on how these scenarios are best played out. I understand the closed trail thing. I got a bit lost though when you spoke about the guy hiking up, and then stated "...mountain patrol will be there in a few minutes to pick you up because skiing you to the office without a lift pass could be a liability to the Resort." - Sounded like you were "taking him in" for not having a lift pass, as opposed to preventing him from skiing in a potentially dangerous closed area. :

NYS General Obligations 18.105
Modern ticketing systems will make it easier to prove. Think photo-id/RFID cards like my old Park City Pass.

As to the "ethics" of buying a clipped ticket, I think paul summed it up pretty well. The experience of what is/isn't moral has quite a bit to do with how much cash you have in your pocket. The wealthy love to chide the poor for their lousy moral character. I for one am not offended by the kids that ask if I can sell them my ticket in the lots. I can't, because I usually didn't buy the ticket, but if I did I would have no qualms selling it/giving it to them.

When the resorts decide they'd rather have skiers at the mountain and reasonable ticket prices, this won't be as big of an issue. High ticket prices are used as a carrot to convince the correct demographic that the three day ski and stay is the best deal. For all of us who don't live in NJ, thats a bit annoying.

The smaller operations are a different story. I once saw a kid pay for his 28 dollar lift ticket in quarters. I saw a well-liked "upstanding" local racer freak out when someone realized she had the next day's ticket. She had mistakenly printed off a fake ticket at home for the wrong date. I never would have imagined she was thieving services. She certainly wasn't doing it out of need.

Volant,

I think your ethics are great. The Dead Heads I knew and loved played by different rules. If your values tell you to not clip a ticket, then "to thyn own self be true".

Someone mentioned Walmart!

if an "unfortunate" wants to ski badly enough, he/she will earn the $$ to buy a ticket. that's how it works. it's really that simple.

I can't believe the people who think, i.e. "when I was 20 and in college" is an excuse to steal from a ski area, or that being "unfortunate" is an excuse to steal from a ski area.

situation ethics is boolshyte, never was valid, never will be. whining about being "unfortunate" is silly. go get some work, earn some money, or DO NOT EXPECT TO BE A SKIER.

this is nonsense.

1) nobody has an innate right to be an alpine skier

2) nobody who has imagined that he/she will become an alpine skier automatically gets the right to ski

3) being "poor" or "rich" is totally relative. do you have a particular income bright line test? maybe a net worth test? perhaps a "parental conduit" amendment?

4) if you want some item or a particular service, you have to be able to pay for it, unless the item/service is provided for free.

5) if you can convince the maker of the item or provider of the service to do an in-kind or quid pro quo barter you might be able to reduce or avoid the monetary cost of the item/service

6) the reason people get "self-righteous" about this subject is because many of us have made HUGE sacrifices to be able to ski and buy ski equipment, and we have not taken illegal shortcuts to do so. we are living proof that being "poor" doesn't mean you are forced to break the law, whether that be to ski or to do any other activity.

7) I haven't yet heard a valid explanation or rationale for theft of goods or services from any ski area. you don't like the prices, go somewhere else. the fact that the ski area is a posh, pretentious, snobbish place like Vail or Deer Valley doesn't justify theft.

Yes, yes, yes.

Count me in as another 'elitist' that thinks that it's ok for recreational goods and services to cost money and they're for people that can pay for them, trade for them, or get comped for them but not for people that scam or steal for them.

Exactly. This is what I was trying to demonstrate via the Bank of America/Credit Union & Walmart/Mom & Pop shop examples.

Volunteering as a gatekeeper on race days is a perfect example of this -- the only compensation afforded is a free ticket.

I'm willing to bet a hefty % of Bears fall into the above category. I could come up with a list as long as I am tall that names all of the instructors, patrollers, mtn. ambassadors, etc. that work at the mountain MAINLY for the free pass(es), pro-form or bro deal opportunities, etc. Even many people that would be considered well off take this approach, whether it be for the pure cost savings or something else.

Let's face it guys (and this shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone here), we're addicted to an expensive sport! To allow a family of 4 to enjoy 35+ days on snow with lessons/daycare, equipment for adults and growing children, lodging, meals, travel expenses and everything else I've forgotten is one hell of an expensive endeavor. The last year my parents bought a seasons pass for me was my freshmen year in high school. Between my pass, my sister, and mom & dad they were looking at a $3,000+ bill. They are fortunate enough to be able to afford such an expense, BUT if they couldn't, I have no doubts that mom would be teaching the kiddies, dad would be patrolling or ambassador'ing (lol), etc.

Granted the rest of the expenses associated with the season are still likely out of reach for the truly poor, but for those that are teetering on the line there are many ways to lower costs. 99% of those ways require SACRIFICES. The other 1% requires screwing your fellow skier as well as sacrificing your own values (assuming they existed in the first place).

Gadzooks! You got me. Good find.
Hey maybe while we're charging him with that, we can also throw in something like this one as well:

NYS General Obligations Section 18-106.2.a:

Skiers shall have the following additional duties to enable them to make informed decisions as to the advisability of their participation in
the sport:
a. To seek out, read, review and understand, in advance of skiing, a
"Warning to Skiers" as shall be defined pursuant to subdivision five of
section eight hundred sixty-seven of the labor law, which shall be
displayed and provided pursuant to paragraph a of subdivision one of
this section.

Seek it out skiers! Understand it, or face the consequences (including, but not limited to a possible warrant for your arrest)! :

Carvemeister,

You got it. If you get caught and procecuted don't be surprised. That's why more people don't give their ticket away. That is aside from the moral aspect.

I think it's weak to try to justify this as not breaking the law. But some do it because they feel it is ok to do. I don't blame them.

The whole discussion reminds me of a line uttered by Jeff Goldblums character in "The Big Chill" that went something like:

"Rationalizations---they are more important than sex. You can't get through a day without 2 or 3 juicy rationalizations---you can go days without sex"

Heck it has been so long since I've had sex, I forgot who gets tied up.

I apologize if this has been addressed already, I didn't have time to read thru 170+ well-versed replies. Someone answer me this- how does it hurt the ski area if someone were to use a cut ticket (assuming the original user actually paid for it)? When they sell the ticket, the ski area is assuming that they will have one skier on their slopes for the 8 hrs, approximately. Therefore, if that skier leaves and sells it to another person, there is still only one skier using the resort's ammenities, albeit a different person. I see the ethics problem with re-selling the ticket- but that's another issue on the skier side of things. I'm just wondering about the resort side... they don't get hurt here.

Maybe instead of the rip-off that is a half day ticket (in my experience, with those prices usually being about 80% of a full-day ticket instead of actually being half price), the resorts should offer a "last hour or two hours" ticket good from 2:00 on?

And speaking of the half-day ticket... maybe if the resorts would actually charge half price for this ticket, they'd see more sales for these and less cut tickets.

don't remember where it was, but several years I was stuck in the midwest for a job for 2 Winters. But there was a resort in Michigan (lp) that offered a 4 hour lift ticket, good for any 4 hrs of operation on that day. With so many resorts using bar code scanners at the lift, why would this not be possible?

I am sure the resort is NOT assuming the ticket will be used all day. They know how long people generally ski. Giving the ticket to someone else just adds to the utilization rate at the resort and deprives them of some of their PM revenue.

It wouldn't surprise me if the late arriving skier stays to the end of the ticket and the all day holder doesn't (for the most part, not talking about us here). Perhaps the PM skier DOES get 80% of the skiing done ON AVERAGE as the "all day" skier.

I have a confession to make:
Several years ago I Ignored the FBI warning on a VHS rental of "The Little Rascals, Vol. 1 & 2" and made myself a copy. I probably hurt the movie industry, and now, after reading all of this, I'm truly sorry.

Who wants to buy it off me, anybody?

I think they had this at Loveland a couple years ago, if not last year as well. Great idea... you can get there at 10 and ski til 2- and not have to buy a full day ticket, or wait until 12:00 to buy a half day ticket.

As I mentioned in my previous post... if the ski resort expects the skier to be honest with the ticket, then the ski resort should be honest with their prices. Since when is it OK to charge 80% of the ticket price, but only allow them 50% of the access? The skier's view of this is probably one of the reasons no one cares if they rip off the resort.

In the retail business, "shrinkage" is a cost of doing business and that cost is passed on to honest consumers.

Yes, but in many cultures "shrinkage" isn't even discussed.

Jiminy Peak has a four hour. Seems like you can buy at 10:00 am and ski for the whole day.

It is a nice feature,though. It also makes money for them as well. Probably reduces the number of clipped tickets that get resold, but not all.

What did I say that had anything to do with this?

I merely pointed out that its more than a little typical for the wealthy to sit around bashing the poor for their lousy morals.

I don't actually care one way or another about the morals of cutting a lift-ticket. In the grand scheme of things, its such a meaningless crime that its discussion only serves to reinforce point a: wealthy people love to blame the poor for just about anything.
Oh really? Gee, I didn't know that.
Gee, perhaps you didn't read the part where I mentioned I don't sell my ticket because I didn't pay for it.
Right. Of course, none of you "huge sacrifice" makers are anywhere close to "poor", but thats a different story entirely. I kind of find it hard to classify people with internet access and skiing habits as "poor". Its a bit of a slap in the face to people who are truly poor. There is such a big difference between people that have "made sacrifices" so they can have the cool ski gear and ski all the time and POOR people that I can't believe you'd bring it up.

If the widely available statistics on income tax didn't nearly guarantee many of those on the "moral high ground" in this thread are tax cheats, I might find it less ironic. Of course, cheating on your taxes is different. Thats acceptable to the wealthy conservative skiing population. :

Whether or not the kid asking me for a ticket in the parking lot is "poor" is kind of irrelevant. I couldn't care less. I'm not his mommy. So long as the resorts continue to not offer ticket prices those people are either willing or able to pay, I'm not going to complain about them looking for a cheaper way out. Its human nature. Only a fat wallet or supposed moral superiority can let you claim otherwise.
My local hill sells 2, 4, and 8 hour tickets. They've done this for decades. I've never seen someone selling/buying clipped tickets. I've probably skied there 1000 days or more. I've seen a few tickets given away.

At shitholes like Killington, its more the rule. Everyone is buying clipped tickets it sometimes seems in the parking lot on my way out. You see, I have to be at work at noon on Sunday. So I have to leave at 10:45.

I can guarantee you the local people aren't more "moral" than the people at Killington. Economics drives people to buy "illicit" tickets at a shithole like that.

And as far as "justifying theft", you first have to justify non-transferrable tickets. I find almost any non-transferrable consumer good to not be justifiable. Lets see who sticks up for the carmakers when they start selling non-transferrable automobiles.

For all that are confused by the apparently lax enforcement of these rules EVEN ON THE RESORT PROPERTY, let me explain in simple terms:

Four ticket cutters show up. Three will not ski if they can't find a cut ticket. They will turn around and go back to their local digs.
a) The resort keeps everyone in line and no cut tickets are sold. They make 58 dollars on a young adult ticket. That guy spends 40 bucks elsewhere in the resort through the course of the day.
b) They let the practice go on in the lot. Four more people come and enjoy the skiing. These people spend 40 bucks a piece through the course of the day. Likely being young, probably on silly high profit items like alcohol.

Which one is more profitable?

Yep, still do. $40 for four hours versus $50 for a full day, so not a big discount (and you can get $40 full-day tickets with the free Colorado Gems Card anyway).

On the subject of Loveland and flexible lift-ticket rules enforcement...

18 months ago we were skiing at Loveland, and at lunchtime I found that my lift ticket had vanished (due to my own negligence in attaching it poorly). After discussing it and giving my best hurt-puppy-dog imitation to the ticket window lady, she gave me a new ticket for the rest of the day, thus saving my trip. Two weeks later I bought season passes for myself and my family, and we also bought passes for this year. So a little kindness by the resort can go a long way toward public relations and future revenue enhancement...somehow I can't imagine Vail replacing a lost ticket without the stub, frankly.

On the other hand, I'm decidedly against letting others use your ticket. It just violates the agreement you have with the resort, end of story (for me, anyway). The kids asking for clipped tickets in the parking lot all have better equipment than me anyway...