EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Completing the turn on the inside ski... HELP!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Completing the turn on the inside ski... HELP! - Page 8

post #211 of 239
Rick, thanks for the montage illustration! Looking at it though, I fail to see any contridiction in what I have been saying?? Please tell me again the difference in what you see and what I see?

Max flexion (though not alot) is at or near "neutral"/flat skis and extension occurring to the fall line in general. You said something about using OLR when you didn't really care about the quality of your transition?? Could you expound on that for me? Because I think the "floating" phase is a split second occurance that has to happen for the microsecond it takes the cm to change edges no matter how passively or aggressively we transition. How is OLR a less accurate movement? What is more accurate?
post #212 of 239
Yup, post was longer than I’d like but I wanted enough descriptive information in there to gel the idea.

Still, I left out a key component that cgeib picked up on pretty quick: Potential issues late in the turn near transition. Hope Rick’s pondering what I do that makes these potential failings …irrelevant.

Cgeib also got the image right - the key is the parallelogram nature of our legs and pelvis. Also remember that our spine is essentially a ‘single segment’ that comes in from the middle of the top cross bar. The top bar can tilt either way, taking the legs with it. Now incline the whole image - a stick figure ‘standing straight’ but at a 30-degree angle with both leg segments still on the ground while the pelvic bar remains horizontal to the floor. Adding Waist Angulation allows the upper body segment to tip upright from its pelvic pivot point without moving anything else.

In Epic debates on ‘presure control’ and ‘weight shifting’ one of the working concepts which goes unnoticed is that we don’t really need leg adjustments in order to shift weight or pressure from side to side. For instance, when walking all of us (knowingly or not) implement pelvic tilt to apply an immediate and forceful pressure change with every step we take.

With each step, we lift one side of our pelvis (sometimes a lot) to help the foot clear the floor. But on the other side we're actually using a downward-thrust to lift our whole body. This is an incredibly useful pressure mechanism that never seems to come up related to skiing.

We also use our waist muscles to rotate the pelvis which helps drive the moving leg forward (nope, Not gonna call it that …just pelvic-rotation ). Very important to me when I'm trying to keep my skis working precisely together.

I’d always used pelvic-tilt unconsciously until a particular Prep Clinic leader asked me to explore the full range of possibility in using it. Experimenting with all the range and power applications just blew me away. All this time I had that much power available to me -and did so little with it.

Tdk6, perhaps the ‘pulling’ example you mention will clear up once you’ve read Ricks’ interpretation.

Also, the Inside-Tip-Lead is not an issue in this. You can implement any degree of tip lead you desire when doing this. I’m NOT trying to ‘minimize’ my tip-lead, I’m just trying to align the carving-arcs of the inside and outside ski to be concentric so that my skis don’t fight each other - quite detrimental to this technique. It just happens that my arc-control-mechanizm results in a reduced tip-lead.

I started a thread a while back on Inside-Ski activity exploring methods and outcomes. They’re all doable but we’ve still got to select the one that is color-coordinated with the rest of our applied ensemble.

Please, suspend your disbelief for a bit. Try not to fold any single idea into some other pre-existing technique you might use every day - it wont fit in. But applied as the 'set' described earlier and taken as its own unique collection of movements it works pretty well.

PS: Again, not decrying any existing technique here. Just submitting another way of executing a turn. And yes, in doing this I Do end up with extra pressure on my Inside-Ski late in the turn - and I want it there…
post #213 of 239

I'm ok with everything in your post except this:

This works well to lever pressure onto the front of the Inside-Ski thereby adjusting its turn radius to be more concentric with the Outside-Ski’s turn radius. It’s still a minimal movement though - driving the Outside-Leg around with pelvic rotation (about the Inside-Leg) keeps the Inside-Leg in a rather constant relationship with the Outside-Leg so once the basic form is established, both skis track nicely without the need for tip-lead adjustment throughout the turn.
Pelvic rotation like your describing would cause your outside hip and possibly upper body to rotate toward the hill after the fall line is passed (rotation). Rotating your femor in the hip socket is more controlable and would allow the inside half to move with the equipment rather than rotating your outside leg around a pivit point of the inside leg (if I'm understanding your post correctally). That type of hip rotation could be a snag in a L2 exam and certinally in a L3 exam. The amount of F & E you use sounds like it is right for the situation (as it always should be). Work on moving your inside hip both up and forward progressivly through the turn.

post #214 of 239
Originally Posted by tdk6
Originally Posted by cgeib
I was keying in on the bold below ....

I know, but I cannot see how this would adapt efficiently to skiing? I was just aiming at your comment: Not sure I can see it as you cut back across the hill though, seems the inside leg needs to get shorter to accomadate the hill somewhat.

And look at this pickture: http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/la...2004-gs-1.html
Correct me if Im wrong but IMHO Danes inside leg is shorter so to speak. But I bet there are some "experts" out there who would argue that Dane has his weight on his inside ski as well.....
Ah, I see! Thanks for clarifying.

I don't know about that inside ski theory you have, though I guess you could argue the weight is on the tail you can't see
post #215 of 239
Bummer no evisceration from Rick yet. Well, I gotta go nap out for a while so…

RW, yes you did understand my text. You also noticed what would be a flaw for regular turns - the apparent ‘over rotation’ of the pelvis about the Inside-Hip.

Degree and timing of counter-rotation matters but I never establish a ‘right’ amount of counter because it’s a continuum for me. ‘Too Much’ is when other mechanical things start to suffer, not a visual appearance as compared to a standard. If I ski the L2 or L3 Skiing Module and an Examiner says, “Hey, can you show me a little more/less counter…?” then I can adapt instantly.

What I’m describing here is just a more fully active transition, spread higher up the Old Turn which leaves me well oriented for the New Turn by the time I get there.

Two turn descriptions to differentiate this turn:
Both begin at Turn Apex in the fall line. At Apex we’ve already got some ‘counter’ established - some is between shoulders & pelvis and a little more exists between pelvis & each leg. Let’s also assume Edge-Change occurs right at perpendicular to the fall line.

So, For a typical turn…

Traveling from Apex to Edge-Change we maintain strong counter right up to Edge-Change. After Edge-Change we rotate our upper body and pelvis (establishing our New ‘strong inside half’) while we also ‘Ski Into’ our New counter.

At Edge-Change in such a turn our upper body and pelvis are still facing ‘largely’ or ‘somewhat’ downhill - so our legs are either ‘largely’ or ‘somewhat’ twisted up in our hip sockets. For Open Parallel this is fine because it helps to twist the skis into our new direction. For Dynamic Parallel it can be downright annoying. I’m ‘facing’ one way while my skis are largely pointed another.

Yes - I

know there are lots of ways to describe this ‘the right way’ - adjusting when and where counter comes and goes and to what degree. I’m just using this sequence as a backdrop to exaggerate differences in Intent and Mechanics. And, For a ‘Flex less’ turn…

In this turn we chose to keep both legs as ‘straight’ as is reasonable (safety/comfort et al) throughout the turn. We use pelvic tilt to accommodate ‘inclination issues’ that would otherwise manifest themselves at our feet.

As we travel from Apex to Edge-Change our relative inclination to slope surface increases so we permit our pelvis to tilt as needed. At some preferential point we … firmly restrict further pelvic tilt.

What happens? Pressure increases on the Inside-Ski and that whole CM/Base-of-Support ‘imbalance’ thing from the Ankle-Power thread ensues. Our CM begins its migration toward the New turn. Transition has begun early and weight can transfer quickly (or more slowly) to the Old Inside-Ski as dictated by our degree of resistance to further pelvic tilt.

Since our legs are straight and our waist muscles are so strong, we can precisely control pressure at each foot via pelvic tilt. Our rate of CM transition is therefore highly controllable. Hopefully this explains why the Inside-Leg doesn’t really need to ‘get shorter’ late in the turn. Pelvic tilt can accommodate a lot of inclination, but it doesn’t have to since we need to begin migrating our CM to the other side anyway. -And- we can still bend that Inside-Knee if we want to.

Finally, as we travel from Apex to Edge-Change we also rotate the Outside of our pelvis around the Inside-Femur - called “Arc-ing the Outside leg” by the person I learned it from a few years back. Doing this gradually eliminates all of our pelvic counter by the time our Body reaches ‘Vertical to Gravity’. (Just before edge-change on a mild slope and a bit earlier on a steep slope.)

This loss of all (or nearly all - again, it’s preferential) pelvis-counter leaves us in the perfect position to initiate the New turn be it a gradual new carved turn, a sharp new carved turn, a pivot turn, whatever. We’re left in the ideal position to decide at will and execute quickly.

I’m not sure I’d agree that rotating my femur in my hip socket is ‘more controllable’ than using my waist muscles to rotate my pelvis about my Inside Femur. The power of a ski to wrench my leg in its hip socket is well known to me. The power of both my skis even twisting fiercely isn’t sufficient to wrench my waist.

Once Again: Not saying we should throw out counter, discard the status quo or decry the existence of Short-Swing Turns. This is just another workable means to execute a turn. One that works well for me and seems to be OK with all the Examiners I’ve skied with the last couple of years. At least, they’ve not harped to me about it. Come to think of it, it was an Examiner who showed me most of it.

post #216 of 239
Thanks for clarifing.

post #217 of 239
Very interesting, MichaelA. The way I understand this new type of turn is similar to your explanation, and I was taught it too by someone in the Northwest, not an examiner, however. The reason we start the transition earlier in the old turn is to anchor the pelvis to the new outside leg. The pelvis has to anchor to one leg or the other to swing from that pin. This "opens the gate" so the "flow of the joints" is channeled to the new turn. It's cool stuff to think about, but 100 times cooler when you get it on skis. Smooth, slinky, fast, and as disski said, sooo secure.
post #218 of 239
Originally Posted by michaelA
Oddly, back in the past when all I could do was Open Parallel everyone griped at me to increase my degree of flex & extend. Now that I ski mostly Dynamic Parallel and have largely thrown out flex & extend, nobody says anything about it being missing from my skiing. Guess if you can deliver the 'outcomes' they're looking for without it, you're good to go.

I had to get my canadians to agree I could do "long/short" for "flex/extend"..... otherwise I was going in circles.... "flex/extend more" "stop bobbing up & down like a canuck" grrrr

Now we ALL agree that longer & shorter legs are OK.... so we do that! (or in my case TRY to do that!)
post #219 of 239
Originally Posted by nolo
It's cool stuff to think about, but 100 times cooler when you get it on skis. Smooth, slinky, fast, and as disski said, sooo secure.
Yes - so secure that I don't mind going faster so much.... I'd rather do these than ski slower but a different turn .... & I am a super chicken that LIKES to feel safe....
post #220 of 239
Nolo, I'm curious as to when you saw something along these lines.

I'd heard (third-hand) that the person who came up with the basics in this did so in the early 90’s to make maximal use of the new ‘Shaped Skis’ and stiffer boots (laterally) that were just beginning to appear. Rumor has it he was specifically trying to develop a more knee-friendly way to ski.

One of our local Go-To clinicians skis with steel knee braces on both knees due to injuries from old technique. He now skis the more contemporary technique that I’ve tried (perhaps poorly) to describe above. Despite the knee hardware he skis circles around all us mere mortals.

Disski we must know at least one of the same ‘Canadians’… I too have heard the continuous reversal of Flex More! / Hey, You’re Flexing Too Much! Often, I heard both perspectives from the same person on the same day. Took me a long time to figure out what the heck was really going on and why they couldn’t get their act together.

Old, classic technique depends largely on a considerable flex and extension of both legs at the same time - that whole weighting & un-weighting thing. Slightly newer technique has reduced much of it but continues to require extension of one (outside) or both legs early in the turn to help bend the skis into the new arc. Of ourse, to be able to Extend we need to be Flexed in the first place.

But if we misapply extension at turn-entry things just don’t work well - especially on stiffer, longer skis. A clinician sees our poor edge engagement with minimal ski-bend and assumes we need more extension to get things working. To get us to extend more they ask us to flex more. Eventually we’re kneeling on our skis and it still doesn’t work. Then they (or the next instructor) gripe at us to stop flexing so much.

All the while it was never the degree of flex & extend we were mismanaging. It was the direction and purpose of the Extension alone that was really at issue. I was scarred for life.

Say, …going faster… using this… Techni…? Oops. Just realized I left something important out. A ‘technical amendment’ that should be applied to it when speed or slope angle exceed a certain degree or when turn radius shrinks more than the sidecut & softness of the ski can accommodate. Amendment to follow.

post #221 of 239
Originally Posted by disski
Bud - I'm wired a bit wrong... but I FEEL things heaps better with my leg extended than flexed.... also control balance better when I have ANY part of my body in a state that puts tendons in tensioned state. Hence hands hyperextended(I push the knuckles down & stretch the fingers out with palms down) with no poles would be my preferred position for skiing when learning something new with my feet/legs....

guess I am a bit lost here?... what exactly do you mean when you say you can FEEL better? what is it you are feeling? snow texture, edge hold, soles of your feet? Does feeling cease when we flex cause I haven't gone numb before?

I can understand this long leg short leg stuff an agree to a point but to keep the CofM quiet, straight legs don't work very well. So it would seem that at the transition, as evident to me in the photo montage, that there is flexion to aid in a smooth transition of the CoM.
post #222 of 239
Originally Posted by michaelA
Old, classic technique depends largely on a considerable flex and extension of both legs at the same time - that whole weighting & un-weighting thing. Slightly newer technique has reduced much of it but continues to require extension of one (outside) or both legs early in the turn to help bend the skis into the new arc. Of ourse, to be able to Extend we need to be Flexed in the first place.
May I make a broad statement here?...

The wider the stance, the more apparent long leg/short leg will apply.

I don't know that the movement timing or degree is substantially different from "the old days" however the wider stances in voque today elicit more long leg/short leg.
post #223 of 239
I'm in complete agreement with that Bud! And yep, I frequently use a wide stance for all manner of things. Any stance wider than hip width automatically adjusts the leg-length equation.

post #224 of 239
This is getting pretty far away from the “Completing a turn on the Inside-Ski” relevance I’d originally intended it about. Dang. Guess that happens a lot around here doesn’t it? Sorry for the long-windedness. Pictures and demos may be worth a thousand words but just try typing an ‘image’ in words sometime.


Amendments for speed, steeps & tight turns All are probably familiar with the ‘Virtual Bump’ idea. The perceived rise-up and fall-away of the snow surface beneath us as we move through transition? It’s the thing forcing these amendments.

In a high-speed turn we feel lighter right after edge-change for a number of reasons. First, our CM ‘falls’ from its highpoint over the skis at edge-change because we’re increasing inclination for the new turn. This is true even on ‘flat’ terrain. Second, on steeper slopes our whole body structure goes from a highpoint while traversing across the hill to ‘dropping’ into the new turn down the hill (a downward acceleration).

At lower speeds this isn’t much of a problem because gravity is pulling our CM downward more than active inclination is permitting our CM to drop.

Flexing while we reduce Old-Turn inclination allows our CM to avoid rising vertically from the snow surface as our upper-body moves laterally. Extending as we increase inclination in the New turn maintains the height of our CM in the same manner.
So without Flex & Extend what happens?

Straighter legs means our CM has further to rise and fall over our skis.

The CM not only has further to rise, its

rate of rise might not be linear - it might be exponential. This happens if we allow our skis to continue on the Old turn track and we don’t moderate the rapidly increasing imbalance. (See that recent ‘Pop-Under’ weirdness I slipped into the Transitions thread)

A very rapid rise of our CM can (and has for me) launch us completely up off the snow even on Blue runs at moderate speeds if we suddenly implement a shorter turn radius. So much for Early Edge Engagement.

Visualizing this you’ll quickly realize the rate of CM rise & fall must be managed any time our CM needs to be inclined (dropped) faster than gravity can accommodate.

On steeps the problems above are inherited and exacerbated. Steeps deliver more distance for the CM to drop when moving from traverse into the fall-line. Translation: Substantial edge pressure might not occur until further down the hill. If your visualization of this has the CM moving up & over the skis sideways then you can see the problem. You might also see potential solutions. Obviously one is that we could just Flex & Extend to some minimal degree and reduce the issues above. That works fine.

A better solution is to execute our crossover a bit differently. Scrap the directly sideways image - what if we move our CM around an arc over the front of our skis instead?

After turn Apex we move our CM progressively forward (Aka: Pull the Feet back, Drive the Hips forward, Morph the Waist, yada, yada, yada). However we do it, an Imbalance results as was described in the Ankle-Power thread - but this time in the Fore/Aft plane.

Releasing our Old-Turn inclination directly over our straight legs would vault our CM upward but since our feet are behind our CM, our CM moves forward as well as upward. This creates a sense of compression between our feet and our CM. Because our feet are not directly under the CM, there is also the sensation of our upper-body being pulled toward our ski tips. (Pretty cool huh? - No need to make an effort to 'get forward' for the new turn)

Skiboot stiffness translates this forward thrust of our CM into a levering action against the tongue of our ski boots - and into downward pressure on the front of our skis.

Dual result: Our CM needn’t travel quite so high over the skis - negating some of that upward launch effect… And we now have the 'missing pressure' back on the front of our skis to help us initiate the new turn properly.

An obvious visual effect of this is seen in a skiers Fore/Aft stance at moment of crossover. The skier will exhibit more forward lean (from the ankle) than a skier using standard Flex & Extend mechanics.

Heh, heh, heh, get all that? Dang, probably burned everyone out on all this weirdness. Maybe should'a started a new thread.

OK, I’ll just shut up and go take another nap. Eviscerate at will.

post #225 of 239
MichaelA, I learned it from a Canuck who used to post here 2-3 years ago.
post #226 of 239
Originally Posted by bud heishman
guess I am a bit lost here?... what exactly do you mean when you say you can FEEL better? what is it you are feeling? snow texture, edge hold, soles of your feet? Does feeling cease when we flex cause I haven't gone numb before?
YES.... all the above & more I would guess.....

Sorry - Rick probably understood my cryptic answer better..... I have NO sensation of body positioning or movement from my proprioceptors....

So I ski using my sense of touch - both deep pressure and light touch - to fill in the blanks (so to speak).... My only useful awareness of what my whole body is doing (except for perhaps my clothes moving across my skin or the wind against my skin) is from the skis through my feet & legs.....

The skis talk to me - they tell me when my weight is not where they want - then I must try to work out which bits are out of place & how they can be readjusted.... all using the sense of touch & some visual....

My ears can only tell me if I am falling or accelerating & then only my head is being monitored....

Feeling does not CEASE when I flex.... any more than it CEASES in soft snow.... Yet I have been known to cry to my instructors that I can no longer feel my feet in fresh snow (Yes I prefer ice still! - it is a mean master but gives definite messages).....

When flexed the input is less certain & it is more difficult to determine what will/is happening when I move.... the extended leg has a MUCH stronger sense of what movement I am performing & how the skis & snow are reacting to that movement....

It is like the difference in my balance ability when I hyperflex my hands as described above(a trick I was taught at the gym when I was trying to learn to stand on 1 leg).... i can BALANCE ON 1 LEG without the trick -btu it is FAR easier when I hyperextend those fingers)
post #227 of 239
Guess I am going to have to tune into some WCup racing on the tube and see if I can see this "new" technigue happening. I don't see it in the aforeposted montage, I just see good technical skiing absorbing the virtual bump (I like that) in balance and moving appropriately across the skis.
post #228 of 239
stand on the inside ski, let gravity and the centripetal force take care of the rest.  No weight transfer, steer the inside ski, don't think to much
post #229 of 239
8 pages so far to explain how and when to transfer weight from one ski to the next and at what position!!! I think this is one of those things when you say a picture is worth a thousand words ( or more ).Ive actually read alot of it and it seems most people have the exact same idea of how to accomplish it but the terms very slightly,Im really surprised that I havent seen anyone mentioning where the pole signals the turn to start the transfer lol
post #230 of 239

I stumbled on this thread searching "techni ski" trying to find the best place to post what I just purchased and got to thinking that this might actually be somewhat appropriate.  Anyway, I came across this on eBay in the vintage skateboards section.  A friend of mine had one back int he 70s. It is essentially a skateboard with the deck set up for feet facing forward instead of across the hill like a traditional board.   It wasn't anywhere near the hit it looked to be on paper because the way it works turning is done py pressure on the uphill foot instead of the downhill foot. 


Anyway, I bid on it because nobody else was and I was thinking it might help me become more comfortable on the inside/uphill ski.  I've been noticing that the less I ski the more I revert to old school motions.  I'm willing to risk the $30.00 to try this thing out and see if I can have a little fun with it.  Regardless it will be a cool addition to my skateboard collection even if I only end up trying it once or twice.  Anyone else out there have one of these or try it lately.  I'm pretty sure it will replicate inside foot/uphill ski drills on dryland to some degree.  But, that wasn't what folks wanted at the time it came out.  These days it might just be more pertinant.







post #231 of 239

I remember seeing an ad for these - I wanted one but it was pretty costly.

post #232 of 239

Slick.  A set of downhill roller skates you can bail off off. wink.gif

post #233 of 239
Originally Posted by MidwestPete View Post

I remember seeing an ad for these - I wanted one but it was pretty costly.

Crgildart - I bid on the one you e-mailed me about, but I didn't make the minimum bid (nobody did). Top bid was $56.

post #234 of 239

Back in the day, I rode a soft fiberglass skate deck that I could ride with my feet side to side ski style. The deck had to flex in order for this to work. It was cool because it was sort of like skiing, but it was not as cool or as efficient as riding normal style. I did do some ski style riding for cross training, but most of my riding was for getting around campus faster than walking. This looks like a great add to a collection.

post #235 of 239

Oh excellent.   A dryland monoski trainer.


Lateral pressure!  Lateral pressure!

post #236 of 239

Here's someone using it with poles and a SAIL!





post #237 of 239

And I found this video.....



I never thought of that.  But now I think of using the H#rb Carvers in a parking garage.  Use the elevators as a "ski lift."  Endless fun in the summer,

post #238 of 239
Originally Posted by T-Square View Post


I never thought of that.  But now I think of using the H#rb Carvers in a parking garage.  Use the elevators as a "ski lift."  Endless fun in the summer,


2 things:


oil and antifreeze slicks + polyurethane =  instant zero edge grip


cars using the ramps tend to PANIC when they see you.


post #239 of 239
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post


2 things:


oil and antifreeze slicks + polyurethane =  instant zero edge grip


cars using the ramps tend to PANIC when they see you.


Hmmm, sounds like "concrete ice" conditions.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Completing the turn on the inside ski... HELP!