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Most Important skis of the decades - Page 7

post #181 of 332
9/4/08 at 9:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
I find it especially interesting that the Spatula was not a simple incremental evolutionary step, but a disruptive leap based on someone getting out of the box and thinking about design basics from the ground up.
I call it "the recycling of old ideas that finally hit the right combination of publicity and supporting circumstances to spark a trend".

If boot development hadn't been far enough along to catch the end of the Spatulas' production life, they would have spiraled into oblivion like Nishizawa or Gauer to name two brands sharing those design features. (And having patents to show for it).
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post #182 of 332
9/5/08 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

Here's the two Dynamic VR's from my list;
525x525px-LL-vbattach3744.jpg
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post #183 of 332
9/5/08 at 7:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
I call it "the recycling of old ideas that finally hit the right combination of publicity and supporting circumstances to spark a trend".

If boot development hadn't been far enough along to catch the end of the Spatulas' production life, they would have spiraled into oblivion like Nishizawa or Gauer to name two brands sharing those design features. (And having patents to show for it).
You may be more steeped in some of these designs than I am. But having read a couple of the patents mentioned + the spat application, I disagree with you. The Nishizawa and Gauer patents share some of the Spatula's characteristics, but they were aimed in a different direction. In my quick read, I did not see where either addressed edge vs surface based skiing in soft snow or the relationship of camber to behavior in powder that the spat application did (does). Hence they were conceptually limited in ways which the spat application was not. And it was the extraordinary handling of the spat in powder, slush, etc. that has been driving more recent hybridized designs. I do not think either of those other skis could have ever evolved in the directions where descendants of the spat will go. If you think otherwise, I'd be genuinely interested in knowing why.

To top it off, both the Nishizawa and Gauer patents were drafted in unusually obtuse language. And some of the claims struck me as oddly cluttered - even for the land of patents.

So, as much as the others are interesting historical footnotes, I'm sticking with the spat as the ski that moved the needle.

The discussion of "timing" in innovation is an interesting one though...
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post #184 of 332
9/6/08 at 8:35am
Best Ski?...Dynamic VR17..enough said!!!!!
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post #185 of 332
9/6/08 at 8:57am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by H20allyear View Post
Best Ski?...Dynamic VR17..enough said!!!!!
Nahh, there are some other fine skis that can claim that crown.
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post #186 of 332
9/6/08 at 10:25am
Spindrift ,can you tell me who created the first rocker shaped ski ?
You have explored many of these shapes and might know.

This design thought should be very high on anyone's list of important ski designs of this era .
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post #187 of 332
9/6/08 at 11:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
Spindrift ,can you tell me who created the first rocker shaped ski ?
You have explored many of these shapes and might know.

This design thought should be very high on anyone's list of important ski designs of this era .
Probably the first person to decamber a ski from some hospital air, then had to ski back in.

I recall the stories of Shane McConkey mounting up some water skis and using them as a prototype.
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post #188 of 332
9/6/08 at 11:23am
I get the feeling that comprex knows the actual history way better than I do. Maybe some other folks here as well. The Gauer & Nishizawa patents were issued long, long ago - think eighties....

I also tripped on an interesting patent for a "reverse camber ski" issued to a couple of Johnstons in that timeframe.

It is fascinating that besides the odd little hint of bigger thinking, all of these seem at a quick read to be focused on easy &/or quick to turn on-piste skis whose mission is either teaching or ballet.

I'm guessing that some of the designs we'll end up with will be somewhat reminiscent of the skis described by these old patents. Which brings us back to the fun question: is comprex right and did the evolution of the newer designs we are seeing require a magic confluence of boot/binding tech, manufacturing, media, etc.? Or did McConkey put a novel enough stake in the ground in a place where the newer evolved designs essentially became inevitable?
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post #189 of 332
9/6/08 at 11:30am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
It is fascinating that besides the odd little hint of bigger thinking, all of these seem at a quick read to be focused on easy &/or quick to turn on-piste skis whose mission is either teaching or ballet.
I think the Olin Ballet was a camberless ski, I don't recall any of the Ballet skis being reverse camber.
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post #190 of 332
9/6/08 at 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
I recall the stories of Shane McConkey mounting up some water skis and using them as a prototype.





Quote from freeskier magazine:

MCCONKEY WATERSNOW SKIS AND BASE-SKIS IN THE SAME YEAR

Shane McConkey must have been pretty bored when the 2003 season rolled around because he decided to try two new and crazy things that no one had ever tried, if the thought had even crossed their minds. The first: mounting up water skis and “side” lining a 2,000-foot face in Bella Cool. “He always said he was going to do it,” says Flip McCririck who was on hand to shoot both “firsts”. “I mean, he slid the whole spine sideways! The bindings were all loose in the skis afterwords, so it was a one-run deal. I was glad to have the skis out of the heli basket because they were cluttering up our whole show,” Flip jokes...”

I think this idea later became the spatula, and then the pontoon when K2 bought Volant... but I could be wrong.
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post #191 of 332
9/6/08 at 11:46am
First Fat Skis.
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post #192 of 332
9/6/08 at 11:48am
Knock yourself out Phil!

http://www.google.com/patents?q=gaue...Search+Patents

I believe these are all part of a string of continuations, and the trail of breadcrumbs leads back into the eighties...

http://www.google.com/patents?q=gaue...Search+Patents

Note that just because someone has patented the invention(s), that does not mean the designs were manufactured or, if they were, that they ever attained any degree of market visibility.
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post #193 of 332
9/6/08 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by H20allyear View Post
Best Ski?...Dynamic VR17..enough said!!!!!
Welcome to Epic!

I wouldn't disagree....I still use them in various forms and bought a new pair for a retro gift for a friend turning 40 last week.

I started thread on VR17's one time:


http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=55155
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post #194 of 332
9/6/08 at 2:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPowHound View Post
[/i]I think this idea later became the spatula, and then the pontoon when K2 bought Volant... but I could be wrong.
Amer (Atomic) bought Volant, not K2.
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post #195 of 332
9/7/08 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
Amer (Atomic) bought Volant, not K2.
My bad. I think that McConkey moved to K2 and brought his waterski/spatula design with him, which was turned into the pontoon?
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post #196 of 332
1/7/10 at 2:30am
Thread Starter 
 With this thread being started at the beginning of this decade, what were the most important skis of the 2000-09 decade?
 Wow, an almost 10 year old thread. 
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post #197 of 332
1/7/10 at 3:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
I am thinking the Spatula, a ski way before its time. Not a "rocker" but convex. Discuss.
Without a doubt the most significant innovation of the past 10 years. Or maybe it is simpler to say since the first shaped ski shipped. Nothing else comes close. Look at the number of reverse camber and rockered skis this year. And it is a reasonably safe bet that number will double again next year -- with new designs extending the comfort zone of those skis.

I find it especially interesting that the Spatula was not a simple incremental evolutionary step, but a disruptive leap based on someone getting out of the box and thinking about design basics from the ground up.


important skis to come 

magne camber - a ski built to be skied on hard pack that has a wavy camber profile to put pressure points on ice before the entire ski is decambered into one continuous curve. The ski would give you more ice grip when the skis is loaded softly due to the pressure points created by the wavy camber profile and would just decamber to a normal ski when ever it was pressed really hard. could also be combined with magne traction to have to wider points at the point where the camber profile is down. and could be used to bring in the next generation of fun shape all mountain skis by creating a continously wavy but overall rockered profile.




 
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post #198 of 332
1/25/10 at 5:48am
 Phil,

Right on. I'd have to say the Atomic Beta construction lead the way in the late 90s. The Carve series, especially the 918 and the Ride series were extremely successful. After that, every other manufacturer came out with a different version.

If my brake hadn't broken, I'd still be skiing my 918s.

Doug
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post #199 of 332
1/25/10 at 8:35am
To me, the Beta series, although very profitable for Atomic (mass produced cap construction), lacked as a versatile ski. I skied a few of them, lastly the R-Ex, and never warmed to the uneven flex: stiff under foot and getting more soft toward the tip or tail. It never really skied well, IMO.

If it was a significant ski historically, it was because it was suitable to making in huge quantity at good profit.
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post #200 of 332
1/25/10 at 6:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post

Spindrift ,can you tell me who created the first rocker shaped ski ?

The guy who first put barrel staves on his feet.
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post #201 of 332
1/25/10 at 9:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

To me, the Beta series, although very profitable for Atomic (mass produced cap construction), lacked as a versatile ski. I skied a few of them, lastly the R-Ex, and never warmed to the uneven flex: stiff under foot and getting more soft toward the tip or tail. It never really skied well, IMO.

If it was a significant ski historically, it was because it was suitable to making in huge quantity at good profit.

I'm not sure what I think about those.  I remember watching a world cup race where you could pick out the Atomic skiers by the fact the skis weren't skittering all over.  Some of them still ski great, some feel like crap.  I think they break down like a lithium battery---one day great, the next day shot.

The R:EX was popular, but skied like crap from the beginning.  The 9:26 -22 -18 were the real deal though.
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post #202 of 332
1/25/10 at 10:53pm
from what I remember seeing, the herminator never skied on a beta ski. they just had graphics to mimic the consumer model
The beta is just another marketing gimic, like most ski technologies. Not to say the metron's aren't good though
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post #203 of 332
1/26/10 at 2:53am
From a guy called 'energyrail'
Quote:
Originally Posted by energyrail View Post

The beta is just another marketing gimic,


Well played irony, sir. 
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post #204 of 332
1/26/10 at 6:32am
Volkl P9 SL for sheer edge grip on hardpack.
Volant PowerKarve Steel Cap, beauty and versatility a big shame they do not make those anymore.

Who started integrated bindings like those Markers on the new Volkls? At least they are a bit more skishopidiot proof. But i am pretty sure someone did that before.

Who made the first true plug boot?
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post #205 of 332
1/26/10 at 9:23am
Originally Posted by energyrail View Post

from what I remember seeing, the herminator never skied on a beta ski. they just had graphics to mimic the consumer model
The beta is just another marketing gimic, like most ski technologies. Not to say the metron's aren't good though

We had a whole thread on that once.  I think the outcome was that their were indeed beta skis on the world cup, as well as some cosmetic fakes.  I've used some that were USST skis. Herman didn't post what he used.

In the end, they went back to a conventional flat design, so how revolutionary could it have been
 
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post #206 of 332
1/29/10 at 7:01am
I would add to this list Keith O'Meara's Praxis powder skis.  He was probably the first "garage-builder-turned-into-a-real-business" ski designer of this decade in the U.S.A. who really invented a hand-built, specialty ski different than most others you could buy, who created a really loyal, cult following that survived several years of "me-too" companies, big and small.  He demonstrated that some unusual designs (for the time he started), combined with heavy-duty construction and fanatical customer support, could flourish in the industry, and he's an inspiration to a whole new collection of independent ski builders who have cropped-up in the last 5 years or so.....
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post #207 of 332
1/29/10 at 7:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim from Idaho View Post

My votes for skis of the decade though not sure if I have the decades right.

1960's Head Standard
1970's K2 Comp & Miller Soft, Rossi Strato
1980's Rossi 4S and 4SK; VR-17's;
1990's Volant Power Karve & Cubb, Salomon X- Scream Series, Volkl Snow Rangers
2000's Atomic 10.ex (10.ex's Rule)

Just a few of my pic's. I'm sure there are some more great skis.
This is a great thread. Wasn't the Rossi Strato the biggest selling ski of all time, until the 4S came out.
What about the K2 710s and 810. I skied the Atomic Red Sleds until they just fell apart but kept them for years in the garage. Finally took the bindings off several years ago and threw them on a fire at a ski buring party. The place went nuts, everyone it seemed had skied them at one time or another.

The first time I saw a pair of Volke Snow Rangers was in Estelle Bowl at Alpine Meadows. The guy slayed a line and skied up next to me at the bottom. I bought a pair that day, I could see they would be a game changer for deep heavy snow. Awesome ski. Also loved the 10EX, the 10 RX not so much seemed to fall apart.  

This makes me rememeber how much money I have spent on skis over the years, don't tell the wife. LOL.
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post #208 of 332
1/29/10 at 9:17am
Originally Posted by comprex View Post

From a guy called 'energyrail'
Quote:
Originally Posted by energyrail View Post

The beta is just another marketing gimic,

Well played irony, sir. 
Actually, I think the original "Energy Rail" - that big plastic plate that Volkl had was awesome. It brought the concept of plates to the masses. It was heavy, but way better than the "Motion" system. I guess the Motion started the current binding system thing, or is that the ghastly Solomon Pilot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ske-Bum View Post



This is a great thread. Wasn't the Rossi Strato the biggest selling ski of all time, until the 4S came out.
What about the K2 710s and 810. I skied the Atomic Red Sleds until they just fell apart but kept them for years in the garage. Finally took the bindings off several years ago and threw them on a fire at a ski burning party. The place went nuts, everyone it seemed had skied them at one time or another.

The first time I saw a pair of Volke Snow Rangers was in Estelle Bowl at Alpine Meadows. The guy slayed a line and skied up next to me at the bottom. I bought a pair that day, I could see they would be a game changer for deep heavy snow. Awesome ski. Also loved the 10EX, the 10 RX not so much seemed to fall apart.  

This makes me rememeber how much money I have spent on skis over the years, don't tell the wife. LOL.

Don't make me post this over on the "More Retro Memories???" thread.
- or some green site!
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post #209 of 332
9/17/11 at 7:00am

At 70´s it was Fischer C4, I really liked it, then Dynamic VR 17 and Dynastar MV2. In 80´s Kaestle RX and Voelkl Expolsiv. 

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post #210 of 332
9/17/11 at 2:32pm



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by riverc0il View Post

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yuki:
Is there a ski "museum" that would be worth a visit to (other than Phil's basement) somewhere in the east?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i don't know if they have older skis or not, but the only ski related museum i know of in the north east is the N.E. Ski Museum at the base of Cannon, NH. i've never been in the museum despite numerous trips to one of my favorite NH mountains, so i can't speak on whether or not they have older skis on exhibit or not.


The NESM is on a par with the Ski Museum in Vail. They are both packed with lots of stuff from the old days.

 

My benchmark skis would be:

 

Early wood skis with camber and side cut (1800s)

First wood skis with metal edges (1930s?)

Head skis (1950s)

Dynamic VR17 (late 60s early 70s)

Fischer C4, Rossi ST (mid 70s)

Atomic Powder Plus (early 90s)

K2 Four (early 90s)

Atomic Beta series (late 90s)
Volant Spatula (early 00s)

 

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