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post #1 of 278
Thread Starter 
I am very passionate about skiing. It is my life it always has been, and it is the sole thing that drives me. It makes me stoked to wake at an un-Godly hour and drive to for hours. My parents met on a ski trip, I was conceived on another. They put me in a pack and took me skiing before I could walk. As soon as I learned to walk they put me on skis. My entire life has been based around this sport. It has brought me un-paralleled happiness and joy from being in the mountains and constantly being challenged by the mountains and nature and learning new things. This is why I shoot ski photos, hopefully they will convey my stoke on the sport to others, and help others to realize there is more important things to life than making a ton of money, a successful career, a big house and new cars.

Unfortunately, it seems that the majority of skiers have forgotten why they got into this sport. They have forgotten that skiing is supposed to be a fun, energetic way to be out in the mountains and to enjoy the great outdoors. It pisses me off to see what has happened to our sport in the last 25 years. It should piss you off even more if you are older than me. It is horrible that people think new gear; ski technique, on-mountain lodges etc. is the key to happiness while skiing. Instead of buying that 5th pair of new race skis, why not use the money for a ski trip to a new exciting place. Instead of analyzing teaching style and ski technique in internet chat room why not work on finding new ways to get you out of your office in the city, and on the snow skiing more. Instead of asking where Freeskiers come from, ask your self why am I not skiing more and working less. Instead of a clinic on new ski techniques why not take a class on backcountry skiing and avalanche safety. Make it a point to ride a long slow double chair everyday, relish the change of pace, take time to watch fat juicy snowflakes fill in your tracks on the way back up.

It is horrible that ski areas now advertise how many on mountain restaurants they have and not their number of powder days. On mountain billboards should be torn down and replaced with signs listing the current avy danger and forecast. Closed areas should be replaced with new runs. Backcountry ropes should turn into gates. Terrain parks should be expanded to be full runs top to bottom of the mountain, not relegated to an unwanted under skied trail. Racecourses should utilize more natural terrain, and less groomed runs.

It is FU(ked that real-estate developers create new ski areas solely to sell more on-mountain condos. It is horrible that ski areas think that skiing is just an amenity to sell more multi-million dollar second homes. If your buying a vacation home that you only use a few times a winter you are part of the problem. Why not buy a place in town instead. Get to know the ski area locals instead of looking down on them. That guy in jeans with duct-taped gear and old straight skis is probably having more fun that you. The guy driving a 1982 station wagon with 300K miles, old duct taped gear, and working two jobs just to be able to take his kids skiing every weekend should deserve more respect that your new $60K SUV. Instead of buying a new $500.00 ski outfit, why not donate some money to take an intercity kid skiing?

The PSIA and its affiliates are DETREMENTIAL to skiing. The PSIA was created in order to standardize the level of ski instruction; instead it has made this sport stale. It has served to drive more people to want to snowboard instead of ski. The idea that skiers on the east cost, in the Rockies and in the Sierras and Cascades should learn to ski the same, and use similar techniques is idiotic. The idea that skiers should all look the same way is horrible it would totally defeat the purpose of individuality of style. Look at the sports top skiers, every one of them have a completely different style. Ski instruction and the PSIA should lean towards individual style not conformity. The PSIA and ski school directors need to remember that there purpose is make it easier for new people to learn to ski, not to increase the profit margins for the resort management. Instead of analyzing the amount of ski angulations try determining more ways to make the sport fun. Ski instruction should involve introducing a client to more types of terrain and teaching them to safely challenge there comfort level, not running drills. Success should be measured in the size of the clients smile, not the amount of improvement to there technique. The top ski racer’s, freeskiers, and jibbers should be looked at as the sports experts in ski techniques not veteran ski instructors. Veteran ski instructors should analyze the style of the pros for why it works for them, and figure out how it could affect the average skier. If you want proof that the current form of ski instruction is wrong just look at snowboarding’s numbers, and the fact that the majority of new snowboarders only take a few lessons, and then develop on there own, look at how many snowboarders there are now compared to skiers.

Hatred and hostility towards snowboarding is no different than racism. Anyone that bitches about snowboarders or newschool skiers should not be allowed the pleasure of skiing. Those that start threads on internet ski message boards about why they don’t like snowboarders, or stating that jibbers cant ski etc, are no different than the people that think it is ok to sue ski areas due to there own inability to think for them selves and take responsibility for there own actions. People need to realize that these two aspects of snow-sliding saved skiing. They keep ski areas open.

If my posts piss you off and make you angry, than good, because that means that you are part of the problem with our sport, and hopefully it will at the very least make you sit back and question your self, your actions, and your take on the sport. Remember with age comes wisdom, but also comes the increased amount of preconceived notions.
post #2 of 278
Pretty well said, MBS--- I don't agree with all of it, but thats OK!

Pretty well said.
post #3 of 278
Didn't read it all, I don't have that much time, have to surf the net...

I think must of us here on EPIC understand what your saying and agree. Skiing is still and will alway's be my reason for enjoying life. I do other things but skiing is what it is all about. Everything else is just fill in until the next time I'm on skis.

I will also add, the greatest part of skiing is, watching my son enjoy skiing. He's 18y/o and has been doing this since he was 3. I've had lots of enjoyment doing this.
post #4 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbakerskier
Hatred and hostility towards snowboarding is no different than racism.
That is a really questionable assertion to say the least. To compare a dislike of snowboarding to racism is to profoundly belittle the very real problem of racism. It is rather like saying "so and so is behaving just like a nazi" everytime you disagree with someone's politics. Wether I snowboard or not is a *choice*, the color of my skin is *not*.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbakerskier
If my posts piss you off and make you angry, than good, because that means that you are part of the problem with our sport...
Nice rhetorical mode there..not. If you piss me off it means that I am the problem. OK, whatever...

Otherwise, some good points.
post #5 of 278
I agree with much of what you said, especially about the passion of skiing. What also impresses me is that this thoughtful entry has improved spelling, which makes it more enjoyable to read. Is this an editorial written prior to this entry?
post #6 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbakerskier
Hatred and hostility towards snowboarding is no different than racism. Anyone that bitches about snowboarders or newschool skiers should not be allowed the pleasure of skiing. .
Nor is it different than hatred and hostility to those that like the lessons they get from PSIA instructors, those that like a standardized technique, those that like new gear, those that like groomed trails, those that have money, those companies that try to provide the widest array of services for their customers, those that are afraid of being run over by riders who haven't really learned the etiquette, and on and on. Should anyone who bitches about them, therefore not be allowed the pleasure of skiing?

I like snowboarders. I am one. Sort of.
post #7 of 278
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems
Nor is it different than hatred and hostility to those that like the lessons they get from PSIA instructors, those that like a standardized technique, those that like new gear, those that like groomed trails, those that have money, those companies that try to provide the widest array of services for their customers, those that are afraid of being run over by riders who haven't really learned the etiquette, and on and on. Should anyone who bitches about them, therefore not be allowed the pleasure of skiing?

I like snowboarders. I am one. Sort of.
I am willing to bet that if skiers had a choice that would choose against the standardised techniques of the PSIA. The freskiing program at Baker is a very good example of this. There is nothing wrong with good gear, inovative equipment allows the sport to progress, but we shouldnt put gear above the actual experiance of skiing. Groomed trails are fun, but many resorts forget that skiing takes palce in the mountians. More terrain should be left for people to enjoy it the way it was meant to be. Take freeways for example, sure there fun to drive fast on ocasionally, and they serve to move a lot of people efficancy, but those backroads are a hell of a lot more fun and enjoyable. There is nothing wrong with making a lot of money, Hell I love Money! However it should never be the top priority. Trying to provide a wide array of services is one thing, turning the mountians into a FU(king strip mall is another. Billboards belong in the city, not the mountians. Sure there are a lot of shity skiers / boarders out there that are out of control, but there is even more shitty drivers on the road. People should learn to ski definsively and deal with it. If your going to bitch about anothers type of skiing / snowboarding than you deserve to get your ass handed to you by them.
post #8 of 278
I realize that was a long post, so I'll give a summary for those of you don't read it all:
Because every ski area doesn't operate exactly how I would like it, they all suck. So rather than give you a vague statement to refute, here's some bullet points you can argue:
  • Anyone can now ski at the resort I work at for $17 a day and have access to some of the best skiing in the country. Part of the reason for that are the amenities you expect are paid for by real estate. You want even a single chairlift? Better pay for the electricity some how, because $17 a day sure won't do it. Hey, at least the guy with duct-taped pants can take his family of four skiing for about $8 an hour. Find a better entertainment value than that.
  • Ski areas should coddle to the ability of the top 1% of skiers by spending 50% more on mountain operations to support backcountry/advanced terrain access.
  • Without standardization of certification in any industry the level of professionalism goes down. It would be like you asking me to build your house or me having you design a multi-homed fiber backbone with ATM riding on meshed DS3's.

I'll be the first to admit the ski industry has problems, but its fundamental to the nature of skiing to understand different people have different abilities and interests when it comes to skiing. There's nothing wrong with that. Except the fur-hooded one-piece fag bags.
post #9 of 278
Quote:
posted by mtbakerskier:If your [sic]going to bitch about anothers type of skiing / snowboarding than [sic] you deserve to get your ass handed to you by them.
Get ready.
post #10 of 278
MTBakerskier: It is wonderful that you love
skiing and that you are passionate about the sport.

Your 2nd paragraph of your initial post seems to be
directed to the greed that is rampant in our society.
I know plenty of people who have done exactly what
you suggest. Given up the high paying, high stress
job and moved to the mountains to have a more
simple life in line with their priorities.

There are plenty of people who are convinced
that money, cars, big homes and fancy ski vacations
is what will make them happy. I don't think you
are going to change their beliefs. Many of these
people ski not because they love it but
because they believe it is the cool thing to do and
they can brag to others about their skiing trip.

Many of the mountain resorts have cruise ship
mentalities. Just look at the summer activities
at many of the mountains. They do not encourage
people to take advantage of the beautiful hiking
trails or bike paths, they encourage people to
pay $$ for the chance to bungee jump or ride
the alpine slide or play miniature golf at the
mountain base. This is corporate America
at its best. Do you have to take advantage of it?
No. Is it a sad statement about our culture? Yes.

I disagree that PSIA is detrimental to skiing. I see
many people who take lessons at the mountain
where I teach and look at the expressions on their
faces when they ride the chairlift for the first time,
ski all the way down the mountain for the first time,
know that they can turn their skis where they want
to go. I do not see how PSIA has made people
want to snowboard. What a baseless statement.


I do not hate snowboarders. I dislike people who
do not respect others or the mountain and
increase the risk of injury for others. I dislike
people who ski at mach speed down a green
run scaring the heck out of people who are
new to a sport. I dislike the profane language
I hear coming from the mouths of some of
the people on the mountain. I dislike the people
who smoke in lift lines and insert their garbage
and poison into the air.

There are so many wonderful activities
to take advantage of where I live.
I wake up and can ski, snowshoe, cross
country ski, run, hike, bike or a variety
of other activities. There are many
who never take advantage of the
opportunities that are there. Their loss.
post #11 of 278
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinn
I realize that was a long post, so I'll give a summary for those of you don't read it all:
Because every ski area doesn't operate exactly how I would like it, they all suck. So rather than give you a vague statement to refute, here's some bullet points you can argue:
  • Anyone can now ski at the resort I work at for $17 a day and have access to some of the best skiing in the country. Part of the reason for that are the amenities you expect are paid for by real estate. You want even a single chairlift? Better pay for the electricity some how, because $17 a day sure won't do it. Hey, at least the guy with duct-taped pants can take his family of four skiing for about $8 an hour. Find a better entertainment value than that.
  • Ski areas should coddle to the ability of the top 1% of skiers by spending 50% more on mountain operations to support backcountry/advanced terrain access.
  • Without standardization of certification in any industry the level of professionalism goes down. It would be like you asking me to build your house or me having you design a multi-homed fiber backbone with ATM riding on meshed DS3's.
I'll be the first to admit the ski industry has problems, but its fundamental to the nature of skiing to understand different people have different abilities and interests when it comes to skiing. There's nothing wrong with that. Except the fur-hooded one-piece fag bags.
Attitudes like your are exactly whats wrong with this industry, Open your ******* ears and look at the other side for once.
post #12 of 278
Oh Lord, please let it snow.........
post #13 of 278
A ski resort that I despise, at least their management style, is Mount Hood Meadows.

they have no clue other than to advertise and fill the parking lot.

They suck.

But heather canyon does not.
post #14 of 278
The connection of skiing and skiers ...the arousal of joy and happiness after the thrill of falling with gravity and then the swoosh of a turn out of gravity's pull...

...has nothing to do with any aspect of the ski industry's commercialization.

Unfortunately, the later is often blamed for the decay of the former. This is simply not true.

I dare any resort to kill the skier's passion in me. It will never happen.
post #15 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven
The connection of skiing and skiers ...the arousal of joy and happiness after the thrill of falling with gravity and then the swoosh of a turn out of gravity's pull...

...has nothing to do with any aspect of the ski industry's commercialization.

Unfortunately, the later is often blamed for the decay of the former. This is simply not true.

I dare any resort to kill the skier's passion in me. It will never happen.

Try waiting in line for 45 minutes at meadows only to ski less than 1000 vertical feet. half of which is runout. An hour in line or on the lift and less than ten on the mountain. Blech. I'd rather randonee.
post #16 of 278

I appreciate your comment ...but I stand firm

I cut my teeth 38 years ago skiing at Charnita ...now Ski Liberty. I spend the next 19 years waiting in those 45 minute lines to ski 900 vertical feet ...then I moved.

I'll say it again:
I dare any resort to kill the skier's passion in me. It will never happen.

Although, I do love a good BC tour.
post #17 of 278
my passion for skiing will never die. I will spend my money where I think I'll get the best skiing experience. If I can it will be sans condos, billboards,liftlines, gapers, etc...
post #18 of 278
Well, the sentiments put forward by MBS are idyllic but alas, only wishfull thinking. In my 60+ years of skiing and teaching the French, Austrian and American techniques I have found that instructors for the most part take in consideration a skiers talents and limitation and instead of fighting that to drumm them into a standard mold, PSIA or otherwise, they encourage what works and discourage what doesn't, and that is different for each skier.

Also, though many Americans go on a ski vacation to ski, many more go on a ski vacation to have a whole rounded VACATION experience, including nice lodging, good nightlife and excellent food and some skiing. Having a hot tub that is too cold, expensive food that isn't good and long walks to the lift can spoil a vacation as much as ski conditions which are not enjoyable. With Europeans the whole vacation package is mandatory and most will not go to a great ski mountain if any of the above is lacking.

To died-in-the wool hardcore skiers the skiing is the most important, but they are in the monority,methinks, after spending $6000 to $10,000 for a family of four in Aspen, that is $1500 to $2500 a person including flight, lifts, food and lodging, folks expect more than sliding down the hill for six hours or so.

But all in all, MBS, your post puts your preferences as a lifelong skier forward and from that perspective I understand you well.

....Ott
post #19 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbakerskier
Attitudes like your are exactly whats wrong with this industry, Open your ******* ears and look at the other side for once.
Ahh.. is that lame ass way of saying you can't intelligently argue those points?

By far my favorite place to ski is Silverton for all the reasons you listed. I've sat and drank beer with Aaron Brill a couple of times and had those exact discussions. You offer boatloads of problems without offering any solutions. Why don't you try to do what Aaron did and open your own area. Don't complain about money, he didn't have it either. At the very least, give him a call and find out just how hard it is to do everything right. His number is (970) 387-5706.
post #20 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog
Oh Lord, please let it snow.........
Amen!
post #21 of 278
MBS Manifesto commentary follows.

First, I don't think that anyone on this board has lost their passion for skiing.

On some levels I agree with MBS - I have always felt that one of the beautiful things, if not the most beauteous thing about our sport is the freedom of individual expression it allows. We are basically playing with gravity on snow and our hereoes are those who show us new ways to do that. Partial list: Killy, Stein, Wong, Schmidt, Coombs, Bode, Ingemar... I don't believe the PSIA is an evil empire, but I don't appreciate the standardization of skiing they promote and think their demo teams are a joke.

I ski and board and I don't believe that anything PSIA has done has had any effect on the popularity of skiing vs. boarding. It's just a newer sport that's been gaining momentum. It looks cooler to kids so it's going to attract them. So what? If it gets them out and active and into the mountains and fosters a love for the sport, I say good.

Real Estate - My feeling is that the people who develop and run ski ares are in it to make some money. They are people who are drawn to the mountains, the sport and the lifestyle. And if they are selling that to people who can afford a slopeside condo/Mcmansion and that pays some salaries and keeps the snowmaking on and the lifts running then so be it.

Did I like Okemo better 30 years ago then I do now? Maybe. But, while my screen name is Crank, I am not an old coot, and can accept that the world is going to change. Besides I can always go ski at Mad River where nothing ever changes.

I am a long time skier, like you MBS, who was always one to spend my hard earned cash on gas to get to the mountains and lift tickets, staying in cheaper lodgings, skiing on older equipment. No your post does not piss me off not at all. I guess I have changed. Now I can afford more than one paiir of skis. I like being able to enjoy a decent meal at a good on-hill restaurant. I like staying slopeside and soaking in a heated pool after a day on the slopes. I like carrying everything I need in my backback and skinning up an empty mountain and finding lines through the trees. I like paying way too much for a burger that's been sitting in the warming tray for hours. I even like freezing my ass off on a slow lift in Vermont in January. It's a big, damn tent.
post #22 of 278

Whew...

MBS:

Damn that's a whole lot of bitterness.

I'm probably one of those guys you hate. By good fortune of working for the right company at the right time I ended up with stock options that were worth something. By another stroke of good fortune we took a SUMMER vacation to Telluride. We fell in love with Telluride and the San Juans. Being East Coaster I had never visited the Rockies before and wasnt much of a skier because of horrible East Coast ski experience.

Anyway, we ended buying a condo in Mountain Village (one of those despised resort communities) with my options. I'm ashamed to admit but it is a great place. Ski-in/ski-out, awe-inspiring views of the 13,000 ft San Sophia Ridge, with every burgoius convenience (jacuzzi, steam showers, etc).

Because I owned a place in a ski resort I thought to myself, "hey, you should go skiing". So I went, took lessons and fell in love with skiing. Became passionate about it. Drive my wife crazy talking about it. I started skiing @ 46 and have been about 20 days a year for the last 5 years. I'm not an expert skiier but love being outdoors in an environment that is as close to "God" as I've ever been. It has also provided a common experience with my two teenagers that I would have never acheived without skiing.

So am I supposed to apologize for my good forturne and love of skiing. F- NO !! I'll just go out in January with my brothers and bomb up and down the mountain in my $700 jacket and enjoy my condo.
post #23 of 278
good post mbs. Vinn I'm not sure if you intended it that way but boy was your post condescending
post #24 of 278

post count...

i read your entire post.

just a thought:

you have over 90 posts in just one month...

(to partially quote you)
"instead of... in an internet chat room..."

you spend an awful lot of time here posting away for someone who is criticizing people for spending time in a chat room.:

you should maybe take up mountain biking or something - it will help you get your downhill fix in. winter is almost here anyway.
post #25 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski nose popsicle
A ski resort that I despise, at least their management style, is Mount Hood Meadows.

they have no clue other than to advertise and fill the parking lot.

They suck.

But heather canyon does not.
Sounds like Meadows is the same as it was in the late seventies and early eighties.
post #26 of 278
The ski area that doesn't help the skiing sport is Mt. Baker.

Have you ever skied there? They hardly groom any of the runs. It’s all big piles of snow that grab my skis and throw me over. If they’d groom a few more trails I could go much faster without having to turn or slow down and fall a lot. Glad I have these handy sticks for me to pull myself up again. Oh well, it gives me and my friends a chance to sit on the hill and talk a while.

And what’s up with those chairlifts? Why are they so slow and sit only two people? I usually get stuck with someone blowing green smoke in my face. One time I sat next to this guy that just couldn’t sit still…like he had something stuck up his a**. Whatever. I like the modern high-speed quads and six-packs much better. They get me to the top of the mountain zippity quick so I can take one more run before hitting the lodge. (sometimes literally…stick doesn’t work worth a darn. Hmmm, maybe that’s where I lost that other stick?).

Of course there’s not much to the lodge...doesn’t really lend itself to any après ski activities. Might as well just down a few quick ones before I slide my SUV down that road. I usually take the shortcut because if you miss the turn a little or slide a bit off the road, there are no guard rails on this steep windy road and whichever way you’re going, you’re going down a shortcut! Therefore my shortcuts always get me home the quickest. And with the few drinks I had just before I left and riding those chairs with all that smoke around, I never feel the pain. Not so sure about anybody else…of course I never see anybody else on that road….hmm, now that I think about it, that’s kinda strange. Maybe if they built a nice safe freeway to the ski area, I could get there much quicker. Wouldn’t have to take anymore shortcuts! All my friends might ride with me in my big Suburban again. Had to get a new one…you know, with the price of gas going up so much I thought I’d better try and save a few bucks with something that gets better gas mileage. At least there's lots of signs along the road so when I do get back on the road I know where the next gas station is.

We have to be conscious about the environment too. If people would drive bigger cars, they could fit more in and there wouldn’t be so many small cars clogging up the road and polluting the air! The quicker I get there the less gas I'll use too!

Oh well, I love skiing. I’ll still go there, just wish they’d get with the program a bit more and make things better. They’re always making skis better every year so why can’t they make improvements with the ski trails, the roads and the resort? I buy new skis and gear every year, why can’t Mt. Baker buy new stuff every year too?

Happy Trails,
Alice
post #27 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by volantaddict
Sounds like Meadows is the same as it was in the late seventies and early eighties.

It's worse imho. Except for the canyon, yoda, god's wall, jacks woods, and a couple other places.

I am happy to be touring this year so I can access the goods without the help of the meadows management crew.

And, not to gloat but I've skied all over north america both countries, both coasts and know how a good resort is run, big or small, base village or not.
post #28 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbakerskier
Sure there are a lot of shity skiers / boarders out there that are out of control, but there is even more shitty drivers on the road. People should learn to ski definsively and deal with it. If your going to bitch about anothers type of skiing / snowboarding than you deserve to get your ass handed to you by them.
Up to a point, I agree; everyone should have the freedom to ski/ride in whatever style they want. But also, shouldn't slope users have the freedom not to be hit by a faster, out-of-control skier/rider? It's the age-old liberal question: at what point do invidividual freedoms conflict with the rights of others?
post #29 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski nose popsicle
Try waiting in line for 45 minutes at meadows only to ski less than 1000 vertical feet. half of which is runout. An hour in line or on the lift and less than ten on the mountain. Blech. I'd rather randonee.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven
... I dare any resort to kill the skier's passion in me. It will never happen.
When you have hiked (much more than 45 mins) for the vertical then you know the passion and the pleasure and the value of every foot and turn. Tuckermans, The top 400' of Nose Dive, Whistler Bowl before they put in the Peak chair (1985??)
Next time you are at Keystone ask Lowell Hart about hiking up Mt. Mansfield with his board on his back before they allowed riders on the lifts.
post #30 of 278
Unfortunately, I think this argument comes down to one of the main arguments in sports (specifically baseball of late). All of us who play the sport and don't get paid, do it for the love of the sport. Unfortunately we do not realize that those who get paid to play the sport may not be in the same boat... entirely. Sports is a business, and we fail to realize that. In much the same manner, I think skiing is the same way- we all go to the mtns because we love skiing... but the people who own and run the places are in it to make money. Its something that we don't want to remember, but unfortunately its something we must accept.
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