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what's wrong with the tune?

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
I got my skis tuned at a place that's not my usual shop. Skis are grabby, hooky, squirrely, and have minds of their own. I can't get them up on edge without catching an edge. I asked for 1 degree base, 1.5 side. What did they do wrong or not do right? (I am taking them back for a re-do)
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post #2 of 24
Could be any one or any number of things. Hopefully they will be able to show you what they did wrong. I used to get a season tune for about 4 years. I only had two bad tunes in that time. for the past three years I have been tuning my own skis as well as some close friends. I have not had a bad tune in the past three years. I let you know that I have some pretty picky friends when it comes to there skis. I'm not the greatest but I enjoy tuning are skis. About one time a year the skis get stone ground just to get the bases flat. Even after the stone grind I still do the edges before we ski on them.
post #3 of 24
sounds to me like the skis either aren't beveled as you requested (flatter than 1/1.5 on the base and the edge), OR they are railed at the tips & tails.
post #4 of 24
Dunno for sure.

Does your old shop detune the tips/tails and this shop leave them untouched? Are your skiis shaped? The rule is no detune for shapes, detune for pencil skis. That is according to the head of the racing program at my home hill. Your old shop may detune everything, and the new one might not.

Did the new shop leave burrs from the sharpening? They are supposed to polish the edges after sharpening to remove these burrs, and make a super sharp and smooth edge.

Perhaps they changed the base bevel to less than 1 degree? The side bevel won't make them hook up, a lesser base bevel than your used to will make the edges hook up easier.
post #5 of 24
Dunno for sure.

Does your old shop detune the tips/tails and this shop leave them untouched? Are your skiis shaped? The rule is no detune for shapes, detune for pencil skis. That is according to the head of the racing program at my home hill. Your old shop may detune everything, and the new one might not.

Did the new shop leave burrs from the sharpening? They are supposed to polish the edges after sharpening to remove these burrs, and make a super sharp and smooth edge.

Perhaps they changed the base bevel to less than 1 degree? The side bevel won't make them hook up, a lesser base bevel than your used to will make the edges hook up easier.
post #6 of 24
Quote:
The side bevel won't make them hook up,
Not entirely true, BigE. The side bevel indicates WHERE in edge angle the ski hooks up. Greater bevel requires greater edge angle and generally getting the skis out from under you. Less bevel = can set on edge with feet underneath you.

Otherwise, I agree with you.
post #7 of 24
I think that the shop did not deburr the edges and/or has the base bevel wrong or the base is not flat at the tips, I always use a bevel meter to check the bevels at the tips, tail and waist when I tune. Also I would detune the tips very slightly,
post #8 of 24
My best guess would be that the edges were not polished.
post #9 of 24
I have exactly the same problem at the moment but do not know what to ask for at the shop. Do I need to adapt and live with it?

I have stiffer boots now too but am unsure whats going on but something is dramatically different from 4 weeks ago. I go away in two weeks and would appreciate some advice here.

Thanks
Simon
post #10 of 24
Apologies gonzostrike -- I was pretty unclear. As I understand, a smaller base bevel, say .5 degrees as opposed to one degree will allow the edges to bite with less tilting of the ski. That may make them feel "squirrely". A deeper side bevel will make them bite, well, deeper...

As for the detuning, yiikes! I was just told in a seminar last weekend delivered by the head of the kids racing programs at our home hill that shape skis are no longer detuned. Sharp tip to tail makes them work better.

Cheers!
post #11 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BootDude:
I think that the shop did not deburr the edges and/or has the base bevel wrong or the base is not flat at the tips, I always use a bevel meter to check the bevels at the tips, tail and waist when I tune. Also I would detune the tips very slightly,
I took them back, and besides the guy saying "I have been tuning skis for blah blah years out west blah blah", "the machines are always set at blah, blah" "you'll be shortening the life of your skis if I redo them blah blah"...who cares? They're WRONG.

So, he re-did them at my insistence because he doesn't want to see unhappy customers : Turns out that the bottoms were done on a belt with no accurate way to set the edge (not going back to this shop, if they don't have accurate machinery). After the re-do, he ran his stone along the edges because he thought maybe they were too sharp, and then I had him detune the tips and tails (he had only detuned the tips before, apparently). They're much better, good enough for this round, but still not perfect.

Anyhoo for what it's worth, I prefer my skis detuned at the tips/tails, doesn't matter if it's old school or new (I'm not a racer). Shouldn't a shop do as you request if you tell them exactly what you like?

[ February 04, 2004, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: marta ]
post #12 of 24
I tuned my Atomic R11s from tip to tail without detuning and it would catch on very hard flat surfaces such as a windblown summit.

When you mean tip to tail do you mean the contact surface or literally tip to tail?

I still use a gummi very lightly on the very tips and tails.
post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by gonzostrike:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The side bevel won't make them hook up,
Not entirely true, BigE. The side bevel indicates WHERE in edge angle the ski hooks up. Greater bevel requires greater edge angle and generally getting the skis out from under you. Less bevel = can set on edge with feet underneath you.

Otherwise, I agree with you.
</font>[/quote]Gonz ... don't you mean Base bevel here! Isn't it the base bevel that determines how near or far under you the ski hooks up?
post #14 of 24
hmmm... maybe so, Chris! I could've sworn that the edge bevel controls how far the ski is out from under you / how large the edge angle must be before it engages. have I confused myself?

:
post #15 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by gonzostrike:
hmmm... maybe so, Chris! I could've sworn that the edge bevel controls how far the ski is out from under you / how large the edge angle must be before it engages. have I confused myself?

:
Gonz, I think you have. The side bevel determines the angle of the actual edge (a 1 degree base and 2 degree side means that the edge is an 89 degree edge). The base bevel determines how far you have to tip to get the edge to bite. With 0 degrees, it bites right away on a flat surface. At 1 degree, you need to tip 1 degree to get it to bite on that same surface. And so on.

Of course, when moving at speed, we need Tom/PM to tell us what the angles are, but I think you can get the point there.
post #16 of 24
[quote]Originally posted by marta:
Quote:
Shouldn't a shop do as you request if you tell them exactly what you like?
Yes they should, if they don't go find another shop. However as a ski tech I run across alot of people who do things to their skis I do not agree with, I might suggest what I feel they should do, but if they insist I do as they ask.
post #17 of 24
Sure you should be able to dictate what you desire.
You should have seen them write it down.
I'm with Betaracer, doubt they were stoned,probably burred.
post #18 of 24
I keep my edges sharp from tip to tail on my race and performance skis. On skis where there intent is more often to skid than carve, I detune the tail a little to the point of snow contact. I run 1 degree base bevels on all of my skis.
post #19 of 24
Just to clarify a point. Yes it's true that the head of the race group said don't detune, but his remarks were not limited to a race setup.

He made the comment that today's shorter ski lengths are the reason why detuning is no longer needed.

IMO, that makes good sense, since the length of my shape ski's are equal or less than the length of the sharp edges of my old boards.

He also said that carving works better when the ski's don't slip. So if your intent is to carve you should not detune.

Of course, you are free to detune all you want; they are your skis! I'm just the messenger!
post #20 of 24
Yes, you should not detune a shaped ski. I have not detuned since the early to mid 90's. For some people it may take some getting used to. But detuning is old school.

I'm not a racer but I like high performance skis. I feel "I paid for the whole ski, why not use". Shaped skis will not perform like they were ment to if you detune.

marta, you may want to start tuning your own skis. When you figure out how to do it you will not let a shop tune your skis. I use the shop's only for stone grinding only when the skis need it. Which is not that often.
post #21 of 24
You don't need to detune tips & tail, but must make sure the tip and tail are beveled properly.

Sounds like possible uneven base bevel and Betaracer is probably correct, needs more polishing of the base edge. sounds like a hanging burr from sharpening the side edges. You can knock this off by using a hard stone and polishing the base edge.

What ski is this on?
post #22 of 24
Thread Starter 
They're Volants. So far, the only time I get a tune that I like, is at one particular shop. It's always a mixed bag when I go anywhere else.

A hanging burred edge was part of the problem here.

Funny, I never noticed anything before I got shaped skis. Perhaps it's because I know more now about how good gear should feel, or I'm just more sensitive to it now that I'm a better skier than I was on my old straight skis...

I just might start tuning my own. :
post #23 of 24
Marta,

Are these the current model Volants, or one of the pre '02/'03 design cap skis? The Volant cap skis were pretty tune sensitive. They feel really grabby if the edge is too sharp or has a burr left from the grinding or filing process. I carry a gummi stone to make on-mountain adjustments to the tune on my wife's Volants after a fresh tune. I haven't had to use it on her new skis, so maybe the new designs are less sensitive to being overly sharp.

Accurate and consistent edge bevels are a must with shaped skis. There aren't many shops that I trust with this work, particularly if they are doing it on a machine instead of by hand. One problem I have seen with machine tuned skis is that the base is not flat. If the edges are then beveled by hand using a bevel guide, the bevel will not be accurate because the guide uses the base as a reference.

Volant's factory edge bevels are 1 degree side and base. That extra 1/2 degree on the side makes them grip better on hard snow, but it may cause them to be more sensitive to being too sharp.

Jim
post #24 of 24
Thread Starter 
Hi Jim
These are the cap design (01-02). Very tune sensitive, I too carry a gummy stone. I've been very happy with the 1/1.5 tune, 'cuz I'm east coast.

It's so frustrating when the more convenient local shops cant give me as good of a tune as the shop 1/2 hour out of the way. Worth the extra trip I suppose just to get quality, until I learn to do it myself
m
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