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Hurricane (Again) & the two sides of the USA? - Page 5

post #121 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbgarrett
BTW, if you respected all those people down in the gulf, you would not make fun of their religious views, or their calling out for everyone to pray for them.
You brought up praying, not me. You said I would be offended, I'm not. I am just saying the constant appeals for prayers, which by all evidence does not do a damn thing, is not particularly useful for people up to their necks in raw sewage.

And why all the calls to delete this thread? What happened to those freedoms we are fighting for? If you are offended don't read the thread.
post #122 of 171
Many of the international poster's today have served to show just how low our country's image has fallen in the eyes of the world. I love my country dearly, but the response to this crisis makes me want to bang my head against a wall repeatedly.

Check out this comparison done by CNN in regards to what Federal Officials were saying vs. what was really going on...it's astonishing the level of arrogance, cheap political opportunism, and just plain lack of compassion our "leadership" has managed to show over the past few days.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/kat...nse/index.html
post #123 of 171
I just had a clarifying thought. There are actually 3 sides to America.

The very very rich 5-8% of the country (world) who are removed from the daily struggles of making a living and can sustain multiple losses while maintaining a high standard of living.

The majority middle class, who could be snatched from their tenuous hold on resources by losing any two factors that can destablized them income, home, business, health or disaster, but have the means to avoid single factor problems. These people are considered rich in 3rd world countries and it is the ability to attain this 'class' in America that lures immigrants from around the world to this country.

Then there are the poor, who are most vulnerable to destabilizing factors and any one of those mentioned above would be a major problem that could lead to loss of quality of life and in this case with Katrina, death.

Now, most other countries have only 2 classes very very rich or poor. Yes, race plays a role in all of this, but it's not just a black and white issue here and to say that is to simplify the complex issues underlying this.

Off to enjoy my Friday!
post #124 of 171
We are pretty amazed here, too. Today's headlines in the major papers say it all. Check out www.smh.com.au for onesuch. Someone over there has dropped their bundle, big-time. It's anarchy in New Orleans, and who knows what's happening in other areas?

We offered to send experts over as soon as it happened, but apparently didn't get a reply to the offer. Meanwhile, we're giving you $10 million in aid money. Some of your states have bigger economies than our country, but oh well.
post #125 of 171
How generous of Australia! I'm speechless (and everyone else is glad).
Thank you, ant, and your compassionate countrymen.:
post #126 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant
We are pretty amazed here, too. Today's headlines in the major papers say it all. Check out www.smh.com.au for onesuch. Someone over there has dropped their bundle, big-time. It's anarchy in New Orleans, and who knows what's happening in other areas?

We offered to send experts over as soon as it happened, but apparently didn't get a reply to the offer. Meanwhile, we're giving you $10 million in aid money. Some of your states have bigger economies than our country, but oh well.

Yes, and I heard that the economy of this region is between 1 and 2% of the USA's economy. Not exactly huge, but not insignifigant either. The poverty in the region is terrible, and New Orleans is one of the poorest cities in the country (ahead of only El Paso according to NPR).

This whole thing has me shaking my head, up late hours of the night wondering what in the hell is going on, etc. My mind is rambling. When I saw people walking into the dome, I feared that this would happen. An every man for himself country herds a mass of people into a dome, and then controls their movements, effectively imprisoning that population. Why? Sickening. Why were they there in the first place. A direct hit could have dropped the roof and killed everybody in that facility.

One thing that I am sure of. We have taken the one man for himself notion way, way, too far in this country. Its gone beyond incentive to excel, its turned into a cult of insanity and selfishness. Its become an excuse to turn out heads on the poor. They are poor, so they must be lazy and stupid. Tough shit. They are sick, tough shit. They are stuck without a car after a huge storm. Tough shit.

At the same time, until you spend some time with people from the poor inner city, with new generations coming around every 15 years, parents that are children, children without parents, guidance, its tough to comprehend how tough it is to break this cycle. I've met many adults in my life who have never had a savings account! What can I do as an American? Nothing! What can America do? I don't know. Maybe its too late. Do we all really believe that the cycle of poverty is destined to repeat itself throughout time in our cities? I don't believe that. We are better than that. Europe tries to do better than that. We do nothing. We have given up on our poor, and they have given up on us. After watching Katrina coverage, who can really blame them?

Anger be damned, why aren't thieves shot on sight? Why do we live in a culture where a percentage of people have zero respect for the work of others? Its sickening.

I wonder why Bush refuses to sign Kyoto. I wonder why he refuses to do a godamn thing to reduce our reliance on fossil fuel. He softens every enviromental rule ever thrown his way in favor of pollution. WHY? Water temps in the gulf in the 90's. More CO2 in the atmosphere than ever, and ever increasing. Glaciers melting. We do nothing. Employee pricing! Lets all go buy a new truck, then bitch forever more about the price of gas, go to war to fight the oil dictators, spend countless billions protecting our oil interests. All in the name of avoiding those godamn pitiful 4 cylinder autos.

Why do Christians believe so strongly in god when no evidence exists for a god, but they refuse to believe that CO2 will warm the earth when evidence abounds.

I wonder why Bush vetoed the 2002 money requested by the Corps of Engineers for dike repair. They ended up with only 20% of the amount requested. Bush probably would prefer a grassroots effort. Maybe he thought all the poor people should get some shovels and build up the dikes themselves.

I wonder why the Coaliton to Restore Coastal Louisiana was ignored? http://www.crcl.org/ . Why?

Why. Why. Why.

Its America, where scientists are regarded in the lowest esteem, and god, myth, a blind eye, and wishfull thinking are becoming the gold standard.

Maybe, doubtful, but maybe, with all the dead, the high gas prices, the outragously poor governmental response, the loss of America's status as a compassionant powerful nation, maybe people will see the light. Maybe folks will vote against myth and religion, and for the enviroment and progression.

But I doubt it.

nate
post #127 of 171
If you want to make a donation directly to the Red Cross go to amazon.com , they are offering a service in which you can d this, as of now Amazon has raised 4.52 millin dollars.
If you can help, please do. and another way to help is to give old clothes to the salvation aremy, for the families.
post #128 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiStarr90
If you want to make a donation directly to the Red Cross go to amazon.com , they are offering a service in which you can d this, as of now Amazon has raised 4.52 millin dollars.
If you can help, please do. and another way to help is to give old clothes to the salvation aremy, for the families.
United is giving 500 miles out if you give $50 to the Red Cross. A pretty good deal if $70 a barrel oil doesn't snuff United out forever.

nate
post #129 of 171
I can't address the situation in Louisiana firsthand, but as someone who has lived through many hurricane warnings, and a few hurricanes, I can tell you that most of the "victims" have only themselves to blame. It is not an "every man for himself" situation, in fact, just the opposite. When we have a serious hurricane threat in Jacksonville, voluntary evacuation of coastal and low-lying areas begins days before the storm approaches. Those unable to provide their own transportation are offered public transportation. This is followed by voluntary evacuation of areas thought to be at some risk, and mandatory evacuation of high-risk areas. However, it is impossible to go house-to-house to make sure that everybody is leaving, especially in congested areas of a big city. Furthermore, could you imagine the outcry if the police went in and had people forcibly removed; never mind that it would take weeks to accomplish. Unfortunately, too many people just decide to ride it out. I know people who have hurricane parties -- "let's get drunk and watch the palm trees blow sideways". As I said, I have no firsthand knowledge of the situation in New Orleans, but if it's anything like Jacksonville, the people still there chose not to leave, and I'll bet those who took refuge in the Superdome decided to leave at the eleventh hour, and it was too late to get public transportation out.
post #130 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by ldrjax
I can't address the situation in Louisiana firsthand, but as someone who has lived through many hurricane warnings, and a few hurricanes, I can tell you that most of the "victims" have only themselves to blame. It is not an "every man for himself" situation, in fact, just the opposite. When we have a serious hurricane threat in Jacksonville, voluntary evacuation of coastal and low-lying areas begins days before the storm approaches. Those unable to provide their own transportation are offered public transportation. This is followed by voluntary evacuation of areas thought to be at some risk, and mandatory evacuation of high-risk areas. However, it is impossible to go house-to-house to make sure that everybody is leaving, especially in congested areas of a big city. Furthermore, could you imagine the outcry if the police went in and had people forcibly removed; never mind that it would take weeks to accomplish. Unfortunately, too many people just decide to ride it out. I know people who have hurricane parties -- "let's get drunk and watch the palm trees blow sideways". As I said, I have no firsthand knowledge of the situation in New Orleans, but if it's anything like Jacksonville, the people still there chose not to leave, and I'll bet those who took refuge in the Superdome decided to leave at the eleventh hour, and it was too late to get public transportation out.
Dont you realize that most of the people who were stuck there could not have left if they had wanted to. They do not have the money to leave, and public transportation was nots available. All they could do was tsry and ride ist out. If you have watched even 10 seconds of the newws you would know this.

Get with it, please.
post #131 of 171
SkiStarr90 - have you ever lived in a city hit by a hurricane? I have for the last thirteen years. I've been through several hurricane evacuations. In Jacksonville public transit is offered to those who cannot supply their own. However, it must be taken advantage of early. You cannot expect the bus drivers to put themselves at risk. I was not in New Orleans, but assume that their system of evacuation is similar. You can certainly choose to believe ten-second TV sound bites. If you had experienced a few of these you would know that most people simply choose not to leave. I'm sure the next hurricane that hits Philadelphia will open your eyes and then you can "get with it".
post #132 of 171
no thats not what i meant, you said that the people were just being stupid and that they should have left on their own, they couldnt becuase buses werent offered to them, (pre-huarricane) and they could not afford to go on their own. but it was the fault of the mayor for not getting everyone out before the hurricane struck, then buses could have been used.
post #133 of 171
I was evaxuated farom florida about 2-3 years ago while on vacation. so i know what ist is like
post #134 of 171
SkiStarr90 - you're not paying attention. What I said is that in my firsthand experience in Jacksonville, many people just choose to stay - whether they have their own transportation, or depend on public transportation. They simply don't believe it will hit, or hit as hard as predicted. I wasn't in New Orleans, so I don't know how their evacuation was orchestrated. However, I think it's safe to assume the people in New Orleans are no different, on balance, than the people in Jacksonville. Based on my experience with hurricane warnings, many people, for whatever reason, choose to stay, even if they have transportation available to them. As I stated, I did not know whether or not the city (or state) offered public transit in this case. But my experience has been that it is not taken advantage of, when offered. Most people would just rather stay. If New Orleans did not offer public transit out, then that's bad. But, my point was that too many people do not take advantage of the opportunity to get out, and if they do, it's at the last minute. I'm sure that many of those who stayed in New Orleans, would've stayed no matter what options were available.
post #135 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiStarr90
I was evaxuated farom florida about 2-3 years ago while on vacation. so i know what ist is like
Being evacuated while on vacation is not an analogous situation. You just put your belongings that you brought with you into your suitcase, and go. You're not leaving behind most of your possessions. Also, a hotel can easily force all guests to evacuate; it's much harder to go into peoples homes and get them out. You don't know what it's like.
post #136 of 171
ldrjax, you clearly have not been paying attention. Not to interviews with evacuees - residents and tourists alike. While some people chose to stay, plenty of people tried to get out and could not. Clearly you are not paying attention to news reports about availability of transportation, or lack thereof. Or to news reports and interviews about the state of the highways out of town on Sat and Sun. As you admit, you are making a lot of assumptions...
post #137 of 171
No, what I said was that in my experience with hurricane evacuations, most people just simply choose not leave. I am assuming that the people of New Orleans are similar to those in Jacksonville. Besides that, what makes you think that those people interviewed by the news outlets are representative of the population as a whole. Also, people are often embarassed to admit that they could have gotten out, but chose to stay; unless of course, the storm does minor damage, then they brag about how they chose to ride it out. My statement was that if no public transit was offered then the public officials acted in an irresponsible manner. However, don't be so sure that many of those who stayed didn't have the opportunity to leave, and many who stayed would have stayed anyway. As for the state of the highways on Saturday and Sunday, what do you expect? That's why they try to begin orderly evacuations well in advance. Unfortunately, everyone seems to wait until the clouds start rolling in. When the outer bands of the storm started hitting on Saturday (remember these storms can be hundreds of miles in diameter, and move at 10 to 15 mph) people probably then realized that this was for real. Just my experience with hurricanes Floyd, Francis, and Jean, just to name a few. Jacksonville has not experienced a direct-hit since 1964 (Dora). Based on this experience in New Orleans, I think people will take these threats more seriously in the future. But if Katrina had struck Jacksonville I guarantee that people would have stayed because most people don't remember Dora, just as I'm sure most in New Orleans can't remember their last major hurricane. Sadly, most people just do not take these threats seriously.
post #138 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by ldrjax
If New Orleans did not offer public transit out, then that's bad. But, my point was that too many people do not take advantage of the opportunity to get out, and if they do, it's at the last minute. I'm sure that many of those who stayed in New Orleans, would've stayed no matter what options were available.
Unlilke Florida, which has a bused based evacuation plan, Louisiana apparently does not have such a plan. No buses were offered.

Your right, some people will roll the dice and stay behind, but that is absolutely irrevelant right now. The only people in the area who don't have my sympathy are the violent looters.

nate
post #139 of 171
Forgive me if someone else poted this previously but...
Just in from my Kim Komando Cool Site of the Day email:

http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/

The first few paragraphs read like they were written Thursday not last October.

NOT for Nothing but we live kinda out in the counrtyside south of Albany, NY on the northeast fringe of the Catskills and constantly keep 15-20 gallons of water in jugs in the basement for those times when a car (or anything else) takes out the only power line on our road. Happens about twice a year for a period of between 2 hours to 2 days. Usually when the weatherperson is predicting a big snowstorm or such, that is when I "rotate" the water (dump the old and stockpile fresh from the tap). Everytime a big snowfall is predicting in this area the stores sell out of bread, milk, cereal, and eggs. Not hurricane stuff I know but who else keeps at least a five day "stockpile" in the house?? No, I do not have duct tape and saran wrap for the windows.
post #140 of 171
The last hurricane to affect us was Francis, last fall. The eye-wall (the center, and most intense part of the storm) made landfall around Fort Pierce and Vero Beach, about two hundred miles south of Jacksonville, as a category three. Because the storm was changing course and "wobbling", only limited voluntary evacuations were ordered here, and, in fact, those in higher and more secure areas were asked simply to stay off the roads to allow those in need to have better access to the interstate highways (I-10 and I-95). At my house, seventeen miles inland, we experienced what I was told were winds of about 40 to 50 mph with torrential rain, and gusts to 80 mph, for about six hours. Our house, which is only about ten years old, and made of brick, sustained minor roof damage, and a large limb from a neighbors tree fell and damaged our pool deck. We were without power for two days. Remember, we were almost 200 miles from the eye of a category three; Katrina was a category four, and the eye made landfall about 50 miles east of New Orleans. Andrew (1991), Camille (1969), and the Labor Day 1935 storm (they didn't start naming them until 1950) remain the only category five storms to make landfall in the US.

Moral: when a hurricane threatens, and the authorities recommend evacuation, get out. Put your important documents in your car, and go. Do not stay around to surf, do not have a hurricane party. Hurricanes laugh at duct-taped windows. The blase' attitude of the natives of the southeast and gulf-coast states toward hurricane threats just baffles me. They could offer free beer and prostitutes at the shelters, and I still think most natives would choose to stay put. Stache, that article is unbelievable; yet I feel I can say with confidence, that if you showed it to gulf coast residents even as Katrina approached, most would have dismiised it. I don't get it, but that, unfortunately, is the attitude in these parts.
post #141 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by ldrjax
SkiStarr90 - I've been through several hurricane evacuations. In Jacksonville public transit is offered to those who cannot supply their own. However, it must be taken advantage of early... If you had experienced a few of these you would know that most people simply choose not to leave.
Living in a country that does not get hurricanes or tornadoes that require people to leave their homes, I am curious to know :-

Does hurricane evacuation include free lodging ?

That would be a costly task for a city the size of New Orleans - but presumably tent cities could be used for a few days ?
post #142 of 171
Duct tape and saran wrap were the useless homeland security recommendation for sealing your home from anthrax or some other terrorist dirty bomb stuff.
post #143 of 171
Latchigo - hurricanes and tornadoes are two very different "animals". Tornadoes strike suddenly, with little, if any warning. Hurricanes are tracked, and strength and landfall location are generally predicted days in advance. That's why it's so frustrating to see such extensive loss of life. And yes, during an evacuation, lodging and food is offered, in designated shelter areas, for "free". Most who do evacuate will choose to find shelter far inland with friends or relatives, or find a hotel. The shelters are for those who cannot find or afford a hotel, or have no friends or relatives to stay with.

You're right, evacuations are costly and very time consuming. It is virtually impossibe to get everyone out of a major city in just a few days. That's why evacuation orders come early. Unfortunately people look up at the sky, see blue sky and sunshine, and decide to wait a little longer. Remember, when the order of "abandon ship" came on the Titanic, many people didn't want to leave the nice warm ship for a cold life boat. It's that attitude.

Stache - my duct tape-reference was toward the mistaken belief that duct-taping the windows will prevent the winds from blowing them out in a hurricane. I didn't catch the Saran Wrap reference.
post #144 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by ldrjax
Moral: when a hurricane threatens, and the authorities recommend evacuation, get out. Put your important documents in your car, and go. Do not stay around to surf, do not have a hurricane party.
Your own statements illuminate your disconnect from the reality many of these victims lived even before the hurricane hit. "Important documents"? "Your car"? Get real. What planet do you live on?

And by the way, I'm not saying no one chose to stay and ride it out. So let's not quibble on that. My point is that you have made incorrect assumptions about about everything from the availability of transportation to the economic possibilities available to New Orlean's poor. You have your view and you just refuse to look at the real world to see where the two collide. Sheesh!
post #145 of 171
I am well aware of the reality of many of the victims of Hurricane Katrina. My reference that you chosen to quote above, is to the decisions made by people that I know. These people, who have the means to leave, chose to stay and surf/party when Hurricanes Jean and Francis were bearing down on us. This is indicative of the blase' attitude that many southeast coastal natives have towards these storms.

My original statement was that, in spite of available options, many people simply choose to stay. I have stated many times in these posts that I am not familiar with the details of the New Orleans evacuation plan. I can only draw on the experience I have had here in Jacksonville (which also has many people of little means). You can draw on your experience with Seattle's hurricanes.
post #146 of 171
someone who hangs around with surfers and party hounds doesn't likely know the vast majority of the uber-poor nonwhite minorities, and therefore doesn't likely know their circumstances.

spindrift is correct there.

ldrjax, I can't accuse you of willful ignorance because I don't know you. but knowing surfers and party hounds is A LOT different from knowing super poor people who live hand-to-mouth by circumstance, not by desire.

I'm talking about people who are lucky to have a change of clothing and ANY food stocked in the cupboard.

you're talking about people who have enough $$ for surfboards and booze and drugs.

get the drift yet?
post #147 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latchigo
Living in a country that does not get hurricanes or tornadoes that require people to leave their homes, I am curious to know :-

Does hurricane evacuation include free lodging ?

That would be a costly task for a city the size of New Orleans - but presumably tent cities could be used for a few days ?

well, it will take several months for the city to reopen, and even then most of the houses will be destroyed. My city (Philadelphia) is accepting 1000 families- approx. 5000 people. they will live in old schools and hospitals.
post #148 of 171
You're not paying attention. My contention is that many people, even people of means, choose to stay. I don't know why this is so, but it is. It's that way in Jacksonville, I have to assume it's the same in New Orleans. Afterall, as my long-departed aunt used to say "folks is folks".
post #149 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by ldrjax
I can only draw on the experience I have had here in Jacksonville (which also has many people of little means). You can draw on your experience with Seattle's hurricanes.
So, you are saying you are deaf and illiterate? And that your response to your lack of information is to throw stones at people living in Seattle - implying that we can't possibly comprehend the mysteries of life and weather in Jacksonville - which is clearly the benchmark for such things in New Orleans?

Come on. Turn on the news. Sit down at whatever fine browser you are using and do a bit of reading. Read a newspaper for 5 minutes every day.

Better yet, do something constructive. Donate to the Red Cross or any number of other groups doing aid work. Examples include The Greater Baton Rouge Food Bank and, when they get their donation link going, the Acadiana Outreach Center (both recommended by ragin' cajun', who I consider realiable...)
post #150 of 171
You're still not comprehending. I simply said that many people, for whatever reason, choose not to leave when a hurricane is approaching. I do not understand why this is so, but it is. I did not, however, at any time, say that we should turn our backs on the victims, whether they chose to stay, or desired to leave, but couldn't. And I certainly don't need instruction from you as to how I might best offer aid.
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