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ski company question

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
just wondering, how come ski companies likes to take over each other?
it reduces competition, yes, but like
tecnica and nordica. wouldnt they be competiting against each other? they both make heaps good boots.

and volkl and elan....


is there something i'm missing?
post #2 of 28
You have not heard of General Motors? Daimler Chrysler?
post #3 of 28

This is why I buy FISCHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Strider,

Consolidation means increased profit by reduced redundancy.

Fewer Staff, in sales, Engineering, marketing, HR…, you name it. The Engineer from one brand becomes the Engineer for multiple brands…

Consolidated product lines; One brand becomes one thing, another becomes something else. Less competition results, since overlap in product (or product rationalizing) reduces product offerings, and segments product by brand. So, Cadillac becomes the high end brand, Chevrolet- the low end brand… Even if the Escalade and Suburban are common platforms.

These things are usually not beneficial to consumers. :

Things might get boring, until some “David” (think Fischer) slays “Goliath” (too many to list).:

Barrettscv

This is why I buy FISCHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
post #4 of 28
Ummm...you do realize that Fischer's factory produces a lot of skis for other companies?
post #5 of 28
Actually, no I didn't!

I do know they produce Carbon Fiber for Porsche : and a lot of high end applications.

I know they are family owned.

Who do they produce for?

Barrettscv
post #6 of 28
They do it to target different demographic groups thereby increasing market share. Certain "types" of skiers are attracted to different brands according to their various perceptions. In marketing, perception is everything. For instance currently Volant, now owned by Atomic, which is owned by Amer Sports, is being marketed as an exclusive, stylish ski, this is aimed at skiers who are really image conscious (I'm SO about the image thing), and want to buy something that not everyone will have. The Atomic brand is well known for its racing skis (this image is now bolstered by Bode Miller). Dynamic, also under the Atomic section of Amer, is a long recognised brand name in France (much more so than in the US). By owning all of these different brands, Amer sells to the people who want the image they're pushing with their Volant line, the racers who look to Atomic, and the French skiers who have loyalty to Dynamic. So by targeting each of these markets, they expect to sell a larger part of the total number of skis sold in a given year.

I didn't mention Salomon as being under the Amer umbrella out of lazieness.
post #7 of 28
the ski lover in me wants to say that ski companies buy ski companies for a stronger overall company.
the jaded cynic in me says that they buy each other because no one outside of the sporting goods industry would ever buy a ski company because they are money losers...
post #8 of 28
Clearly than your answer is the latter. (as one who knows you)
post #9 of 28
fischer makes tens of thousands of alpine and nordic skis for most every other company.
post #10 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by logruve
fischer makes tens of thousands of alpine and nordic skis for most every other company.
Several ski manufacturers, including Fischer, make skis for other companies they do not own under contract according to the specifications provided. Checkracer could probably provide more detail.

Fischer is one of the few family controlled ski makers left and they only own their own brand as far as I know. Head, though publicly traded, has a CEO/shareholder who owns 45.5% of the shares. That person is Johan Eliasch who can be said to effectively control the company. Stockli though smaller than Fischer or Head, is the last major "family" controlled ski manufacturer that I know.

Fischer has an affiliate that makes carbon fiber parts for Boeing and Airbus as well as Porche and others called FACC, and also a composite material development arm called FTC. It all started with Josef Fischer in 1924 who began making sleds, wagons and skis. You can find more information on the company's history on Fischer's international company website.
post #11 of 28
Thread Starter 
icic
thanks
it's just, tecnica and nordica puzzles me heaps.
nordica, race?
tecnica, all mountain?
but they both have race boots and all mountain boots!
post #12 of 28
Well, I´m here.
Much has been said, I´ll add some more comments.

The most striking example of "internal competiton" has been Rossignol and Dynastar, Lange and Rossignol.

Fischer is far from being "some David". On the contrary, its sales of about 810,000 pairs of alpine skis (03/04) is almost as high as that of Rossignol (1.3 million incl. Dynastar) and Atomic which makes Fischer Nr. 2-3.
There are some long-time partners Fischer makes skis for (Scott, Salomon and especially Intersport which is a big chain of sports shops with "its own" skis and boots by Dalbello) and, as in other mfrs as well, some "ad hoc".
About 300,000 pairs are for others, Fischer states.
Besides, Fischer is by far the most important manufacturer of X-C skis (620,000 pairs while the world market is 1.5 million probably excl. Russia).
Sales of alpine skis: USA: 50,000 pairs, AUT: 120,000 pairs, Germany: 70,000 pairs.
(Statistics based on Fischer-info dossier Feb 2005.)

The family-owned company needed some money in the late 80s or early 90s not to end up like all other Austrian brands (Rohrmoser lost Atomic, Arnsteiner Blizzard, Kneissl Kneissl, Kastle Kastle) and got them from Kanematsu-Goldwin who had about 30% share until about 2001 when Pepi Fischer and his sister bought the share back. I´m sure they hold over 50%.

There are just two small independent full-assortment ski companies: Stockli and Kneissl (Japan not included have no info).
Other smaller brands are part of a bigger business:
Dynamic, Volant in the Amer group, Nordica with skis still Nr. 2 behind boots and in the Tecnica group. (Btw, Dynamic has some true fans also in the western part of Switzerland.)

As to waxman´s "cynical" remark, afaik, Rossignol had been for sale for a long time but there was no one - not even Nike - ready to buy such a giant.
post #13 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strider
icic
thanks
it's just, tecnica and nordica puzzles me heaps.
nordica, race?
tecnica, all mountain?
but they both have race boots and all mountain boots!
Well the differing brands of a group don't neccessarliy have to be specialized in different aspects of skiing, as I mentioned earlier (with Dynamic, though prehaps I didn't stress it enough), brand loyalty is a huge consideration in marketing, it goes hand in hand with perception. If someone's last pair of boots were Nordicas, and they liked them, chances are they perceive Nordica as the way to go, and they will be looking for another pair, as is the case with any gear. People are creatures of habit, and by owning more brands a company can supply the habits of a broader range of people.
post #14 of 28
Thread Starter 
icic...
do they share technology?
eg will atomic and salomon share some unique design in the future?
does elan have technology from volkl?
post #15 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strider
icic...
do they share technology?
eg will atomic and salomon share some unique design in the future?
does elan have technology from volkl?
I can't answer these questions, but I can tell you that Volants didn't have foam cores before Atomic started making them.
post #16 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkracer

Fischer is far from being "some David". On the contrary, its sales of about 810,000 pairs of alpine skis (03/04) is almost as high as that of Rossignol (1.3 million incl. Dynastar) and Atomic...
Well, David was victorious...

The David Vs Goliath analogy was meant to describe an independent, family owned brand Vs the conglomerate. Fischer's contract manufacturing does not make them a conglomerate. Amer Group is a conglomerate.

Fischer manages to show the way, without the deep pockets to buy top world cup talent or to be sold in-mass, at retail. Their success and image might be that of a large manufacturer in Europe, but they are less known in the US than most brands.


That’s my kind of corporate David.


Barrettscv

P.S. Just for the record, we (my kids & I) own 2 Fischer’s, 2 K2, 2 Rossi, 2 Atomic, 1 Volant, 1 Elan, 1 Salomon, 1 Volkl..., we are not real big on brand loyalty, we just want to have the right component for the application.
post #17 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strider
does elan have technology from volkl?
In terms of ownership, Elan and Volkl don't have anything to do with each other, so I doubt there is any critical technology being shared.

Elan did produce some of Volkl's junior models recently, but that is just OEM work.
post #18 of 28
Maybe they should all get together and call it "Salorossficshvolkantan2"
I was a bit dissapointed when K2 bought Volkl. But it is not like is says Volkl on the ski when really it skis lik a K2 because they own them. Volkl is still a great ski. It's all about the money.
post #19 of 28
Thread Starter 
k2 bought volkl?
i thought tecnica owned them......
post #20 of 28
Unless something else changed again. K2 Inc. purchased Volkl Sports Holding AG, and The Marker Group on July 9, 2004. The Purchase price was app. $124 million. I think they took over Marmot Ltd. also. Volkl had technica so I think that came with the deal, but do not quote me on that. Everyone else had a ski/binding integrated system so, to compete, K2 and Volkl needed a similar system. That is just what I read in Ski World Press.
post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepdescents
Unless something else changed again. K2 Inc. purchased Volkl Sports Holding AG, and The Marker Group on July 9, 2004. The Purchase price was app. $124 million. I think they took over Marmot Ltd. also. Volkl had technica so I think that came with the deal, but do not quote me on that. Everyone else had a ski/binding integrated system so, to compete, K2 and Volkl needed a similar system. That is just what I read in Ski World Press.
Tecnica was not involved in any of the above. The Tecnica Group owns Nordica, Dolomite, Rollerblade, and a very small interest in Elan, primarily in the form of distributorships. The bulk of Elan is "owned" by the Slovenian government.
post #22 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepdescents
Everyone else had a ski/binding integrated system so, to compete, K2 and Volkl needed a similar system. That is just what I read in Ski World Press.
No, Volkl was among the first to use a "system" in 2001/2002 on P50/Carver/Vertigo Motion. The integration was a process, first there were only simple screwed-on rails 2000/2001 which got more and more truly integrated. Motion is exclusively a Volkl binding. Motions are not assembled with other Markers in the Czech factory at Kostelec.

K2 has been using Marker IBC since 2003/2004 and IBX since 2004/2005. They are both different from the Motion bindings.

Blizzard, Kneissl and Nordica use or used the IBX/IBC under different names too (e.g. Energy Track).
post #23 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by volantaddict
I can't answer these questions, but I can tell you that Volants didn't have foam cores before Atomic started making them.
Hmmm, that's not an entirely true statement. I'm sure that Phil can probably shed more accurate detail on this, but I do know that the first 2 years of Volant production within the Atomic factory brought about some significant changes. The changes included full wood cores and the introduction of the "fiber" sidewalls (instead of the steel top sheet extending down the sides like "cap" technology). These skis would be from the 02/03 and 03/04 seasons. I'm not 100% sure about 04/05 and Phil could probably fill us in for the years before Volant left their factory in Denver right off I-70.

Reading through the new Volant site it sure looks like many skis may no longer have wood cores (what's an Air Lock core?).

I doubt I'll ever buy a new Volant, but I sure do like the Machete series. All of my new purchases will probably be Stocklis, but I'm keeping an open mind for demo days this coming season.
post #24 of 28
Thread Starter 
what is tecnica's relationship with volkl now?
post #25 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strider
what is tecnica's relationship with volkl now?
Just friends...

post #26 of 28
Thread Starter 
just friends??

volkl is promoted at the tecnica international site...
post #27 of 28
I guess you could say they are really good friends...

There has been a Marker/Tecnica/Volkl global marketing alliance in place for a few years now, but Volkl and Tecnica have never been under common ownership at the factory level. At the distributorship level, there is some common ownership in a few countries, though not in the US since the K2 acquisisition. After the K2/Volkl merger, it was decided that the MTV alliance would continue.

In the US, Volkl and Tecnica are distributed out of the same facility in New Hampshire. This is an interesting scenario considering Volkl is owned by publicly-held K2 and Tecnica is still privately owned.
post #28 of 28
Thread Starter 
oooh im starting to understand.

very interesting....
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