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Wide, Wider, Widest Please Stop It

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
Ok, so I'm sick of it. These darn ski companies keep increasing the tip and tail size, shortening the turning radius, and I'm left skiing something that makes circle turns, catches in the tip and tail when I need to make that emergency stop.

Opinions on the width?

I'm a hardpack ski lover.

Atomic GS 11 last year skied really great, stable, and with confidence, this years was more damp (asset) but the turning radius is shorter and the ski is wider, thus the turn starts up there in the tip too early and the ski won't work unless it's absolutely on edge carving and won't release when you need it to.

Hate the Atomic bindings also, each time the demo guy adjusted them I stood there and kicked right out, had to insist he adjust them properly.
post #2 of 27
On hard snow in fairly wide-open spaces, I like 21m GS skis such as the Head i-GS RD (2003). They will do anything you need them to, and are totally stable and predictable at any speed. Carving skis are great and more versatile in crud/pow/bumps, but are skied in shorter lengths and are not as stable as a real GS, nor do they have the power, smoothness, or inspire the confidence that a real GS does on hard snow at high speed. I am on the Head in a 180 this season (I am 155lbs) and will be dropping to the 175cm next season for free skiing (to be called the Head i-Race). Some other great "free-skiing" GS skis I have tried are the Volkl P60 race stock and Blizzard Sigma RS. I have also heard good things about the Rossi 9X WC for free skiing, but haven't skied it.
post #3 of 27
I have found if a ski has a turn radius of less than 20m if feels like a pogo stick, bouncing from turn to turn. I prefer 21-23m. As for waist width, I would call anything with less than 80mm a skinny ski. And in GS turns you don't sacrifice any performance for the extra width (pogo stick skis are another issue)
post #4 of 27
Thread Starter 
Ok, so I try the Bode ski today in a 167, waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy to short. When I got up to speed the ski wanted to make the same 17m turn it was built to make, not what I liked.

Then I tried the 174 Bode, based on a 19m radius, which I found to be a heck of a lot more stable, didn't feel like the tip would catch and I'd fly over the front of the skis, but don't like the 2 footed stance needed to ski the newer wider carving skis.

So ended up finding a pair of my trusty, stable, versatile Volant Supercarve Legends for $100 brand new.
post #5 of 27
Personally I like extreme sidecuts and two footed carving.

Not everyone skis at GS speeds and may like a more versatile ski.

I want one ski for all-mountain, all conditions, all turn shapes, and all speeds.

A GS ski is limited unless all you do is race or bomb down the hill on groomed or hardpack.
post #6 of 27
Last season's and this season's GS:11 are identical skis. Not one bit of difference. Next season offers a GS:11M, which does have a different shape and core.
post #7 of 27
Anything under 80mm "skinny"?

U buggin' yo.
post #8 of 27
A "hardpack ski lover" should find no problem in locating plenty of superior skis for his/her beloved hardpack, ice and (those luxurious days) groomers.

I don't know where you've been looking, but all the serious players in performance skis make plenty of skis for hard snow.

Please redefine your complaint, as it's just empty as it sits here.
post #9 of 27
Here's the way I see it. A ski has a natural turning radius. To make a tighter turn or a wider turn, you have to do something to make the turn tighter or wider. What's more un-fun to you?
Taking a long turning ski and tightening the turn or take a short turning ski and trying to widen the turn (if and when you don't feel like making a tight turn).

I don't mind taking a wider turning ski; my current ski is 17m and tighting a turn. I think if you blend your edging and retary skills just right, you can still get a really nice carved turn. This is fun to me.

What's not fun to me is making long turns with a tighter turning shaped ski or make tons of short terms alll the time. Every time I demo a slalom ski I make a run or two and say "not for me"; They only are fun to me when I keep turning allll the time.

I think my next ski might go down to 15m but I don't think I'll go down to 11-12m like a lot of skis coming out.

I guess you're right in that it is the trend; Atomic with the M series; I saw next year's K2 Apache (replaces Axis) yesterday, it's definitely wider with much more sidecut; also has rivots in the tip like the Public Enemy. There's a ton of skis out on the market, I'm sure there's always going to be something to pick that matches your style of skiing.
post #10 of 27
Quote:
Originally posted by learn2turn:


I saw next year's K2 Apache (replaces Axis) yesterday, it's definitely wider with much more sidecut; also has rivots in the tip like the Public Enemy.
Wider and with more sidecut than what? Certainly not the Axis XP it replaces, they're the same ski with rivets and a different color scheme.
post #11 of 27
I have no issues with making a wide fast turn on a ski with a 12m sidecut.

Is it as stable as a GS ski?

Of course not but it suits some people better.

I would love to have a GS ski for hard fast days but what happens when I want to hop into tight trees, narrow steeps, or bumps?
post #12 of 27
I'm yet to try the 120mm+ tipped skis, although I would like to. I'm an all mountain skier and love the newer slaloms. If the length is long enough, they can be incredibly versatile. I am using a 170cm Head iSL with a 13M radius and can ski them full out GS, moguls, knee deep pow, or short radius down the fall line. ( On a smaller icier mountain they would need to be shorter) But on balance, I would never go back to a GS ski. I'm curious though as to whether this next generation of slaloms which is wider in the waist are going to be quick enough edge to edge.
post #13 of 27
If you go to a good shop you can get super G skis. Those have a big turning radius.

I kinda agree with everyone else though in that it could be your skiing. I have the SX:11's (~19 m radius I think) in a 170 and it takes no effort to stretch out super g sized turns on these.

Maybe your not standing up straight enough in transition or keeping your hips forward? I'm no expert on this stuff. I think a race clinic is good for anyone; maybe you should try that.
post #14 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by shmerham:
If you go to a good shop you can get super G skis. Those have a big turning radius.

I kinda agree with everyone else though in that it could be your skiing. I have the SX:11's (~19 m radius I think) in a 170 and it takes no effort to stretch out super g sized turns on these.

Maybe your not standing up straight enough in transition or keeping your hips forward? I'm no expert on this stuff. I think a race clinic is good for anyone; maybe you should try that.
i have not bought skis from a ski shop in over 20yrs. i usually get them for free directly from the company. i'm not looking for super g skis, if i was i wouldn't buy em from a shop.

i skied the sx 11 and thought that when i got em up to speed the ski wanted to make that same 17 m turn and couldn't handle the need for larger radius turning. ski was squirrely.

usually i'm the one giving the race clinics.

looky here: these skis are made for the terminal intermediates. don't think mr. maier is on spoons.
post #15 of 27
Ok so you are a pro, you get free skis, you teach race clinics,you liked the old Atomic GS:11, you don't want a big sidecut, you like hardpack, but you don't want GS skis?

So you are looking for a non GS ski that skis at GS speeds without alot of sidecut like a GS ski?
post #16 of 27
proskier1 smells a lot like this:

post #17 of 27
Proskier1... Let me list off a few things you have said so we can try to find a ski that "suits" you...

You hate skis with wide tips and tails.

You like hardpack.

You like GS skis because they are stable, but they have too much sidecut for you because they like to be on edge.

You hate atomic bindings.

You dont ski in a two footed stance and you dont like it, and obviously dont see the advantages of it...

You "teach" race clinics... (see above...?)

Mr. Maier skis speed events.

You like to ski on SuperCarve Legends.

You assume that a ski with sidecut is made for intermediates.

You consider yourself an expert skier.

You get free skis from ski companies - supposedly.

Okay normally i dont step out and attack people in any sort of way here - others can attest to that (accept U.P. ) - but in all honesty, none of what you said makes any sense what-so-ever. It sounds to me like you ski old school, and refuse to change out of ignorance. I hope to god you arent teaching any kind of high level race clinics because i dont see how you can teach something that you refuse to learn yourself, and obviously do not agree with. Don't come back at me with credentials or ill take you skiing sometime.

On to equipement... new skis dont hook the tip and the tail up if you keep them in a carve. A true expert can keep any ski in a carve at any radius. It is when you skid the ski that it starts to hook up, but even then a true master of the tool should be able to use it just fine. Keeping your feet together and skidding your turns is not how modern skis are supposed to be skied on - especially modern race skis.

My advice is not to waste your money or any ski companies money by getting new skis if youre not going to learn how to use them. What you describe is the nature of modern skis, and the nature of modern skiing. GS skis especially will only turn when they are on edge. Skis are becoming softer longitudinally and stiffer torsionally so that you can CARVE many different radii on them. The people on these skis are not intermediates, i can garuntee you that. Tell me that because Bode skis on 165's that have a 120mm tip he is an intermediate... or that in GS modern racers and skiers alike arent using high edge angles... or that those that are arent skiing properly.

Wake up and take a lesson. Stop teaching race clinics. When you stop on skis, move your feet apart, angulate (not bank), and you will stop - dont slide - stop. Stop posting rediculous topics like this one. I think that anyone who has read this thread has automatically regressed in skiing ability (bust out the 210's). And by the way, its okay to not be new school, but dont claim that skis are wrong or bad just because you dont know how to use them. If you notice, there are a lot of different side cuts out there right now on skis. Typically you can find one that suits your style of skiing or the turn shape (turn radius) that you like to make most often. If your turns look like:
<
. >
<
. >
or:
/
\
/
\
instead of:
(
.)
(
.)
Then you probably dont need much sidecut on your carving tools - delete carving tools - input skidding tools or sliding tools - whichever applies. Straight skis anyone??

A rediculous topic requires a rediculous reply, so there you have it. Happy hunting for your skis. And yes, ski companies have probably been giving away straight skis for 20 years now havent they...

Later

GREG

(The edit was to fix the turn shapes)
post #18 of 27
Round 1: Heluvaskier

heluvaskier 10
proskier 4

stay tuned for an exciting conclusion, folks!
post #19 of 27
I think he would like my new Metron 11s.

They have a pretty large turning radius.

[img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally posted by HeluvaSkier:
Proskier1... Happy hunting for your skis.
He could try garage sales and/or dumpster diving!

Hey! My 200 cm OLIN Mark V's might be worth something afterall!
post #21 of 27
Just find a ski you like.....and enjoy the sport.
Good skiers can use about anything.....like the dude doing the moguls on downhill boards.
Bad skiers can make the best equipment look bad.
Turn radius specs are interesting, but when does real terrain allow you to turn at the specified radius? Heck, if I waited for a 17m radius turn on what I like to ski, I'd be going a zillion mph
if I linked the turns, or waiting to scrub off speed with a nice traverse...(if room allows which is often not the case)....which is what you see alot of in the "new school" skier.
Just turn when you want and whatever radius you need....control the ski....not vice versa
post #22 of 27
The radius is just one factor in how a ski turns, there are a lot of other things involved like where you pressure the ski, how many g's in the turn, skiers weight, how hard or soft the surface is etc. Keelty doesn't publish the turn radius because he doesn't think it's that meaningful except for very general differentiation between models, although he said he might start including them since the manufacturers seem to be pushing it quite a bit.

There are a lot of skis with shorter turn radius that make great long radius turns, plus they are a lot more fun to make short turns on. The Fusion S12 with a 14m radius makes great high speed super g turns, same with the Volkl 5 star, I had the 175 up to about 70 a couple times and it felt fine, you rarely get a chance to go much faster than that freeskiing.
post #23 of 27
Westcat.....hope you were the only one on the slope going that fast!
post #24 of 27
A GS ski is limited unless all you do is race or bomb down the hill on groomed or hardpack. [/QB][/quote]

???

How bout utilizing its rigidity for high speed crud busting. Works well for strong skiers, if a little more work than a mid-fat.
post #25 of 27
GS boards always worked great in powder.....and believe it or not....some of us could ski pow before the fat ski.....and make short radius turns on a 207.
What radius turns do you figure they're making in the powder 8 contests?
post #26 of 27
Quote:
Originally posted by schluesser:
A GS ski is limited unless all you do is race or bomb down the hill on groomed or hardpack.
???

How bout utilizing its rigidity for high speed crud busting. Works well for strong skiers, if a little more work than a mid-fat. [/QB][/quote]

Sounds good to me. I ski my Head RS119's for those days of 3" over hardpack (current conditions here in the PNW). I have yet to find a better ski for those chopped-up snow conditions-confidence inspring! The midfats aren't really at an advantage until you get up to 6" or more of pow/crud.
post #27 of 27
A few minor thoughts:

The "12 meter" or "21 meter" or whatever meter figure you see written on the tops of skis isn't the *turn* radius, it's the radius of the sidecut itself. If you are so inclined, you can even look at how they measure it (for FIS minimum-radius purposes, anyway) in the FIS equipment regulations.

You can readily vary the radius of the turn a particular ski will carve by varying the angle of the ski to the snow. This should be kind of obvious if you consider the geometry of the situation. In addition, since snow (if it's not sheet ice, anyway) is deformable, the arc is also affected by weight and how the turn is initiated. Finally, with most skis, the arc can be varied to a degree by varying fore-aft balance.
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