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Buying System ski flat, like an AC4 - performance? - Page 2

post #31 of 51
You can actually pull the binders off of the Soly Pilots and mount them on any ski sans lifter by just changing out the screws. The pilot plates are just pre drilled with the standard Soly hole pattern.

The only reason that "System" skis came into play is that there is a bunch of 50 year old execs in the ski industry right now that just wanted to come up with a way to make some quick $$$ before retireing. TroutMAn if you where at SIA you probally saw the hudge difference between those companies ran by fat 50 year olds, and those actualy ran by skiers.

All system skis excell at is fleecing midle aged, chronic intermediate skiers that have more money than comon sence.

That being said, I would defintatly be glad to see all of the *******s that support it only because they have a financial insentive to do so dissapear from this industry.
post #32 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkracer
My question once more: is the discontinuation of Pilots true?
The Salomon website has all the 05/06 stuff on there now. There is no mention of the word Pilot in any of the new line. If you use the search funtion you get a list of their old pilot skis with dead links when you click on them.

http://www.salomonski.com/us/product...=Ski&idtp=3292

And I think Salomon win the useless jargon award for this little effort:

Quote:
Metaltex layout:

Optimization of the transversal pressure distribution and shiningaesthetic effect.
post #33 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbakerskier
TroutMAn if you where at SIA you probally saw the hudge difference between those companies ran by fat 50 year olds, and those actualy ran by skiers.
It sounds like your "in the know," so please list which companies are run by the fat 50-year olds and which are run by "true" skiers. (I'll try to ignore that you're implying that 50 year olds are not capable of being "real skiers." : )

Not that such a sophmoric statement needs a response, but I've had the pleasure to ski with several 50+ year old ski company execs. Many of them still kick some serious ass. Check out last year's Warren Miller flick. Look for the segment from Chamonix...that's Tim Petrick, Head of K2. I'd hardly call him "fat."


Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbakerskier
The only reason that "System" skis came into play is that there is a bunch of 50 year old execs in the ski industry right now that just wanted to come up with a way to make some quick $$$ before retireing. All system skis excell at is fleecing midle aged, chronic intermediate skiers that have more money than comon sence.
A flat ski with a new high performance traditionally-mounted binding is more money than a system ski with an equivalent binding. Please explain how that is "fleecing" and how the "fat 50 year olds are getting rich" by doing it.

Again, I'll point out that shops have the ability to order flat skis if they 1) order early, and 2) order enough. They don't. If they were as frustrated as you say with systems, you'd think they would.

Mt Baker...Why all the angst?
post #34 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwiski
And I think Salomon win the useless jargon award for this little effort:
Oh my god...is that for real? I'd have to hope that was originally written in French and severely messed up by the translation.

If a native English speaker wrote that, he should be sent back to Freshman Composition.
post #35 of 51
I checked the Salomon US website. It has less info than the catalog. There´s always a table with technical details and it says Pilot. The descriptions at each ski say it as well. The bindings shown are clearly Pilots, or they at least look exactly like them.

The absence of the word "Pilot" on the website is no proof for me, Detective.
Never mind.

As to the translation, it´s nothing against the Czech version of the Rossignol catalog. Last year I had to ask the Germans to send me theirs because sometimes I didn´t understand in my native language what the meaning was...
I have picked the best examples and will serve the pearls to our readers. I just can´t say which company it was - they are advertisers...
post #36 of 51
Btw, I´m not a ski historian but let me say that ski&binding systems are just one of the examples of "back to the roots". First skis back in the 19th and early 20th century were always sold as a ski-and-binding unit...

Zdarsky´s special alpine binding on his shorter skis was such a unique system with even a stiff metal plate...
post #37 of 51
Looking closely at the AC 4 and if I buy, it will be flat. I hear good things about the ski and that set up - more energy.
post #38 of 51
Thread Starter 
Hey BakerSkier: I was with you on this on, that is, the system bindings/skis basically a marketing ploy, but I wanted to see what those in the know had to say. But, I have to say that you do lose creadabillety wit yur por speling and name cawling. I only decided to chime in on that when you used the "over 50 fat guy" image. I happen to be 54 years old, not fat, and ski quite well (I am told) for a guy who started at age 40. Sometimes it's all about credibility not just the rap, the facts, maybe even being right.
post #39 of 51
Ive been out backpacking, but to respond. I dont give a shit about taking the time to spell correctly on internet chat rooms. For my line of work spelling is so criticle.

As far as my coment about fat fifty year olds, it was ment to be more of a figure of speach. The point is there are alot of fat cats in the industry right now, that forgot why they got into this industry in the first place (I.E. to ski) and now are too concerned about making a shit load of fast cash (I.E. developing system skis that have no actual benifits to the consumer).

To make things clear I actually on ocassion ski with a crew of 3 guys, two in there 60's one in there 70's that can out ski most skiers in there 20's or 30's.


I stand by my stance that anyone trying to tell you that system skis have performance benifits is either incredible stupid and doesnt realy know what there talking about, or is in a positon to make some cash off of system skis.
post #40 of 51
Thread Starter 
I accept the apology for all of us in the Older Than Dirt Club and see what you were trying to say. I think it's the bad spelling combined with the attitude that gets to people. Maybe fix one of those and your credibility will rise!

But, back to the bindings, my gut tells me you are right about a marketing strategy being behind the system bindings. Afterall, if a ski company buys a binding company, what better way to get you to buy the binding that to integrate into the ski and then put out all kinds of technical jargon about enhanced ski performance. I will demo the AC4 as soon as I can and decide between it and the new Rossi B3 (now don't get me started about a foam core vs. a wood core).
post #41 of 51
We should avoid the evaluation of grammar and spelling in a forum of this type.

The internet is increasing connectivity between many individuals for the exchange of ideas. Grant provides sufficient credibility. His passion is an asset, not a deficit.

Michael Barrett
m-barrett@northwestern.edu
post #42 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billiam
(now don't get me started about a foam core vs. a wood core).
What you think that you know about the foam VS. wood debate amy soon change. Research that I conducted last year actually proved that a new type of foam that has never before been used in ski constructions, might actually rewrite the book on the foam VS. wood argument. Trust me, I was the last person to think that a foam ski could out perform a wood ski, but than again, Im not talking about the PU based foams traditionaly used in skis either.
post #43 of 51
Billiam,

Which words did MtBaker spell wrong?
post #44 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbakerskier


I stand by my stance that anyone trying to tell you that system skis have performance benifits is either incredible stupid and doesnt realy know what there talking about, or is in a positon to make some cash off of system skis.
I hope you know, you sound like an idiot who does not know the first think about the ski industry. Your opinions could not be further from the truth.
post #45 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billiam
I am considering the Volkl AC4, but someone has stated NOT to buy it flat, that is, without the Marker Piston binding system. I would rather ski on Look/Rossi bindings. The AC4 can be acquired flat, without the system.

Any knowledge about performance if you do what I want to do? I would assume that Volkl would say you will get better performance (flexing characteristics and edge grip) with the system. What say you?
Buy the flat ski and put your Rossi/Look bindings on them. Skiing powder and crud will negate any advantage you might get out of the integrated system. For high speed turns on hard snow there might be an advantage to the integrated systems but not on ungroomed which is what I assume you will be skiing on an AC4.

I demoed the ski last Feb and it is a really nice ski. Had lots of fun on it and would recommend it.

Good luck.
post #46 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by skifordad
I hope you know, you sound like an idiot who does not know the first think about the ski industry. Your opinions could not be further from the truth.
Prove it then. Show me one ounce of proof that a system ski actual performs better.
post #47 of 51
Thread Starter 
Bisimeral: What you say makes sense. In fact, what you say is what I was thinking. Afterall, if I am interested in what kind of edge grip a ski has, I don't go out on a powder day to find out! Since I mostly ski off-piste, I don't care if a "system" gives me 10% more performance on the groomers, even at high speed. I don't race or use gates, so who cares! The only caveat I could think of would be in icey conditions, which do occur as we all know. But, it that condition, all systems/bindings don't make much difference.

Barretscv: Most all don't care if peeple misspell wurds on the internet. But, you bash other posters at the same time, those words seem to get under your skin. I think MtBaker realizes this, but he is young....

PaulJones: You are kidding aren't you?
post #48 of 51
Thread Starter 
MtBaker: On the possible "new foam" -- given techno advances, I would not be surprised at all if they come up a foam that lasts like wood and has it's punch too. Best of both worlds. As we used to say in the 60's, "Better Living Through Chemistry."
post #49 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billiam
Bisimeral: What you say makes sense. In fact, what you say is what I was thinking. Afterall, if I am interested in what kind of edge grip a ski has, I don't go out on a powder day to find out! Since I mostly ski off-piste, I don't care if a "system" gives me 10% more performance on the groomers, even at high speed. I don't race or use gates, so who cares! The only caveat I could think of would be in icey conditions, which do occur as we all know. But, it that condition, all systems/bindings don't make much difference.

Barretscv: Most all don't care if peeple misspell wurds on the internet. But, you bash other posters at the same time, those words seem to get under your skin. I think MtBaker realizes this, but he is young....

PaulJones: You are kidding aren't you?
My youngest son (38) is an extreme skier and lives in Reno now (Flagstaff, Seattle, & Anchorage for years) and skis the Volkl AX4s with salomon bindings. Neither of us think that there is any benefit off piste to the system skis. On piste, on hard snow, yes. Although most intermediate skiers probably don't ski well enough to take advantage of the technology.

Just my opinion based on my own testing, etc.
post #50 of 51
Billiam:

Yes, I am kidding, but I can't spell either. I bug the hell out of my wife who is quite literate and a capable speller. She always says that no one cares if you spell right in a chat room. I tell her that they do.

She's well educated - I ski well! He priorities are screwed up.

More importantly, I'd mount them direct.
post #51 of 51
Oos, posted in the wrong spot, and it won't let me delete.
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