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Gender preference? - Page 3

post #61 of 84
Plato's, you mean?

books are just books, nolo. they aren't substitutes for human experience. they are waypoints at best, tales of past travellers.

a book won't make your swing the best it can be, but it can give you ideas that help you understand what is the goal of a good swing.

the real deal is doing, not reading about doing.
post #62 of 84
Thread Starter 
Yes, Plato's Symposium. I think the discussion of love is transferable to a discussion on fear. I love your advocacy of the "noble savage" approach. With that in mind, I am going to go swing at some balls, summoning up all the courage and fortitude I can muster.
post #63 of 84
Originally Posted by nolo
Then fear is imagining the worst without having the experience to back it up?
I would revise this: Fear is preparing for the worst. You can have experience, skills, modicum of courage, and still have fear.

I've been painting the outside of the house lately. I'm on a 28 foot aluminum ladder, and it's 2 rungs from being fully extended. It 'bounces' when I climb it. I'm not a fan of heights, but I get up to the roofline of the second floor to paint for hours at a time.

I've been doing this for weeks over 2 summers..........first scraping, then power washing, then caulking, priming, topcoat. I KNOW that I can do this. I still get the old grip of fear every time I'm up there.

Do I have experience? You bet. I've been doing this since I was 15 years old on various old homes. Do I have the skills to stay on the ladder? You bet. My balance, while crappy these days, serves me well. I focus on what's in front of me, not below me. Do I have courage? My husband thinks I do. Do I ever stop thinking that I could have an 'accident'? NO WAY.:

You go up the ladder, ride your bike on a scary trail, drive with morons who can kill you, and you live to post another day.

Experience doesn't necessarily take away fear. The fear is there, but it's controlled while at task. Preparing for the worst scenario (what you call fear), releases adrenaline, which is a good thing. It will keep you sharp.

I don't see fear as something bad unless it's freezing your abilities.
post #64 of 84
good stuff Mrs B

when I emphasized "experience" it was also to point out that there is an ever-decreasing-radius series of concentric circles of feedback, as nolo would like to call it...


you have the "fear" because you are still young in the "experience" department.

each occasion that gives you (+) value in the "experience" department also is giving you experience with fear!

with each experience that reduces the fear, the overall "fear" is further reduced by the experience with the sensation of fear relative to performing the task.

see what I mean?

and this is how we get comfortable driving in NorthEastern US highway traffic in pissing rain at night, how we learn to ski steep tree runs, how we get up the courage to speak up when you know something WRONG is happening...
post #65 of 84
As many of us have known, trusted husbands, bs's and so's who take their spouce for a wild ride and turn them off to the sport is very common. Some inexperienced instructors also have been known to do this too. A true professional knows not to over terrain people and let the client make the decision when they are ready to go to more difficult terrain, with the instructors approval. Husbands, bf, and so's are not trained instructors and have not enough experience in teaching to try to give instruction to their spouce. I also think in some cases, they are showing off to show how good they are to the person they are instructing (a long quiet ride home). This could be labeled a gender specific trait, but I have seen it work the other way too. I still think it is a good idea to get a reccomendation from someone else who you value their opinion before selecting an instructor (ski or otherwise).
post #66 of 84
Nolo & Gonz....
My fear of "total anhililation" is really most times TOTALLY illogical..... I can happily traverse across a drop that is relatively large - but would refuse to ski over a 6 inch drop....
the smallest thing can leave me a quivering wreck.... & seeing someone else do it means nada.... I spent my whole life watching everyone else walk across the log over the river - while I fell in unless they almost carried me!
as a result I tend to believe that I will fall.....

My imagination as to the consequences is quite vivid (& remember I don't imagine in visual manner) ... so I remember the moans of the patients in casualty & the smell of the hospital wards & imagine what the pain must be like when I will spill my guts (or brains) all over the rock over there or the snow down there.... or imagine how the screws feel going into the bones in my leg or.....
This takes about half a second - by which time I am unable to move....

the instructor who got the best results had different tactics to the others - he NEVER stopped me at the top so i could check out a slope.... he maybe described to me ahead the type of terrain we would find - but he carefully kept me moving once near things that I fear .... If I stop I tend to be unable to move again easily.....

This is real FEAR as opposed to being afraid .... afraid is what you get when there are bushfires near by.... but it lets you function...... in someways helps performance.... fear paralyses

The fear is getting to be less of a problem because I believe in my ability to do more things... but it still rears itself regularly....

My rollerblade instructor describes anxiety & FEAR.... he wants me to be comfortably anxious when he pushes me.... & was upset to discover that I am ALWAYS anxious throughout the lessons.... & close to terror at many times
post #67 of 84
nolo, I'm going to be blunt. You don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about, in regards to fear. Quoting impressive-sounding authors won't cut it.

Skiing and Golf are similar in many ways, but where they diverge is in the experience of fear on the part of many people who ski, which is completely different from any kind of fear one might experience on a golf course.

The only time you are likely to experience anything like the "ski" fear on a golf course, is when you see lightning striking and headed your way. There is no way you can equate "fear" of making a poor score with that. And THAT is the type of fear many people experience in skiing.
post #68 of 84
Thread Starter 
Well, you are blunt. Stubborn too, for I have merely suggested that there are fears, the neuroses, and there is fear, the generic emotion. The generic emotion fear is attached to all fears. Recognize that, and you will understand (another great author) Pogo's "We have met the enemy and it is us."
post #69 of 84
Can you imagine how you would feel if some drugged out of his brain creep pointed a gun at your daughters head? You can see his hand shaking & the finger on the trigger is very unsteady....

That is probably close to how ant & I often feel on snow at times....
Not worried, not a little fear.... terror... almost vomit inducing paralysing fear of what may happen
post #70 of 84
Thread Starter 
I'm not saying you don't feel that way! We are talking past each other. The emotion fear is like love, with many manifestations large and small, but all springing from the same "form."

Gonz was right (again, dammit!): I am splitting philosophical hairs. I am driving a point that no one cares about. The golf yips are nothing like feeling exposed on a mountain, though I will suggest that the strategies to deal with them, as Bonni outlined so eloquently, are pretty much the same.
post #71 of 84
I understand where you are with this nolo, but I think the term 'fear' is the kicker. I would say there is fear in skiing at times, in riding your bike on a cliff face, driving in NY.....

I would probably call your golf yips Anxiety, or what I call 'Near Fear'. There are times that I experience Near Fear, and it's worse than any real fear out there. I can never tell when it will hit, but I actually vomit sometimes. It's sometimes Irrational.

There are times when I meet large groups of people I don't know that I get Near Fear. Again, I don't mind large groups of unknown people, and I can walk into a room stuffed with them (ESA is always that ) and be totally comfortable. But on the way to this function.........I'm a mess of Near Fear. I think the worst: What if I make a fool of myself (I usually do!), what if no one talks to me or worse, what if I look like a rube in a room full of royalty (I usually do!), what if I dribble food on myself (I usually do!), what if I'm put on the spot, etc etc etc until I've thought myself into a mass of nerves!

Job interviews sometimes give me Near Fear, too. Not all of them....just some.:

Once there, you'd never know I had a problem calming the demons. I'm focused on the task, controlling the 'fear', living to post another day.

Skiing and interviewing can lead to this type of the same emotion, but one has a life threatening basis, and the other doesn't. (No one ever ended up in a hospital from a job interview, golf game, bbq or banquet!)
post #72 of 84
Thread Starter 
Very good, Bonni. Anxiety is not fear. I'll split hairs no more.
post #73 of 84
Sorry for hijacking this thread!
We now return to our regularly scheduled discussion....what was it about again?
post #74 of 84
Thread Starter 
No worries, Bonni. It's nice that you're diving into this forum again. The topic was whether I should book the PGA or LPGA pro at my golf course for a lesson. Which I intend to do, with whomever is available.
post #75 of 84
Originally Posted by nolo
You guys are going to love Weems's Sports Diamond, which I am employing to the extent that I can to golf. It's not just power, it's also touch, and purpose, and will. When I'm hitting on all four of those cylinders, then I'll have game!
Originally Posted by oboe
So . . . there's a hint of the diamond. Excuse me, the Diamond. Where can we learn about the Diamond?
Originally Posted by nolo
It's coming!
I don't care whether Gonz "need[s] marketing".

Seriously, I like the concept. Will it be "coming" in a book? A clinic? At ESA? . . . maybe ESA East Weekend?
post #76 of 84
Originally Posted by nolo
Gonz was right (again, dammit!): I am splitting philosophical hairs. I am driving a point that no one cares about. The golf yips are nothing like feeling exposed on a mountain, though I will suggest that the strategies to deal with them, as Bonni outlined so eloquently, are pretty much the same.
we all like to do what we're good at.

you're good at splitting hairs, about considering the splits, and applying them to teaching skiing.

I'm just good at being precise. And, I guess, also driven to post my criticism regarding precision/slop, whether it be intellectual or athletic. I guess it comes across as "needing to be correct" sometimes, but really, I'm just trying to be PRECISE and not so much "correct" or the "winner." Really.

Mrs B is showing her great talent for writing directly and with good color, something that could earn her some extra $$ some day if she finds the proper muse. Then she won't have to DO the 20 foot ladder climbing, she can WRITE ABOUT it.
post #77 of 84
Originally Posted by oboe
I don't care whether Gonz "need[s] marketing".

Seriously, I like the concept. Will it be "coming" in a book? A clinic? At ESA? . . . maybe ESA East Weekend?
but oboe,

I DO care about what YOU need.
post #78 of 84
Thread Starter 
Patience. It will be released soon, and all y'all will get to see it, regardless of whether you attend an ESA event, where you will get to experience it.
post #79 of 84
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
but oboe,

I DO care about what YOU need.
Been a long time for you, hasn't it?

Do the cold shower thing.
post #80 of 84
Originally Posted by oboe
Been a long time for you, hasn't it?

Do the cold shower thing.
why I oughta... :
post #81 of 84
Who brought up this fear thing?? Was it me? Maybe it belongs in a separate post.
post #82 of 84
Thread Starter 
I reckon it's too late now, Ron.

My intent in posting the first message was to find out what effect, if any, the student's and instructor's gender have on the learning environment. Is gender an important consideration in learning? I am going back to the previous formulation of PSIA's teaching model where Student Characteristics + Instructor Behaviors = Learning Partnership.
post #83 of 84
I agree with Nobody ... having good chemistry with an instructor makes a difference.

I always chose male instructors. I like direct feedback, to be corrected and pushed hard. In my general experience, more men than women do that.

Ironically, I have had a lot of success teaching beginner to intermediate women. For many women there is a strong preference for instruction from another woman.
post #84 of 84

Isn't it the person?

Originally Posted by nolo
I'm thinking of taking a golf lesson, and have a choice between a PGA pro and an LPGA pro. I don't know much about either except for their gender. I found myself thinking about how a student's gender and the gender of the pro might affect the lesson, and in the process exposed some of my gut feelings about the different dynamic of the male/female instructor and the male/female student.

I decided I am desperate enough to take instruction from any golf pro, regardless of gender.
Returning back to your original question, from my perspective, I would believe that the relationship you establish with the instructor is more important than their sex. But until you have had time to work with an instructor and establish communication and trust there is probably that little voice of doubt resonating in our mind based on past experience(s).

I think either of your two prospective instructors would love to hear what you want to work on, why you want to go down that path and propose how they feel they could help you. From there you could make an informed choice.

You initial thought prompted me to take a brief look at the PGA-LPGA training programs and while the PGA's is far more extensive that simply reflects the program not the individual. Just like there a Level 1's who outshine Level 3's in the teaching arena. Knowledge has to be supplemented by passion, soul and wisdom.


PS: What is going on in the game your desperate for a lesson? Shoot me a PM and maybe I can provide a thought or two. Remember it is just a game not validation of our self worth. Leave those gremlins to those of us who play for pay.

PPS: Fear is coming down to the last hole with $100 on the line and only $50 in your pocket!
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