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Waisteering Revisited  

post #1 of 739
Thread Starter 
Yesterday in the Park City Record:

Local Racers Develop New Ski Technique

"When you do it right, your body looks like an upside down tuning fork,” says Park City local Tommy Kirchhoff. “The key is in the rotation of the waist. It’s feels something like doing the Chubby Checker Twist.” Kirchhoff invented the technique he calls “Waist Steering” last winter based on the Chinese art of Tai Chi.

Kirchhoff continues,“Rotation of the torso and other body parts is innate and natural —but many ski racing purists shy away from rotation because it’s very misunderstood. All of the balance and power in Tai Chi comes from turning the waist.”

When Kirchhoff felt his Waist Steering technique was starting to solidify in January of 2005, he began sharing the concepts with Park City local Gary Dranow, a certified USSA coach. Dranow was able to understand and apply Kirchhoff’s radical fundamental changes, and began skiing much better. In turn, Dranow began formalizing a learning progression for the new technique.

How effective is “Waist Steering?” For starters, the ModernSkiRacing.com website, which represents the
partnership of Kirchhoff and Dranow, publishes many glowing testimonials. Also, Gary Dranow is ranked as the number one Nastar expert age 50-54; he’s nationally ranked 9th overall, with Daron Rahlves, Casey Puckett and A.J. Kitt all ahead of him in the top seven. Dranow is also ranked second in the Intermountain Masters Division, Class 6.

Kirchhoff is the number one ranked Nastar expert in the state of Utah for ages 30-34, although he does not race formally very often.

If none of those accolades turn your head, maybe this will: The Modern Ski Racing Team has just received a generous sponsorship from Rossignol. When asked why the giant ski manufacturer would want to partner
with two unknown ski racers seemingly bent on challenging 60 years of ski racing fundamentals development, Rossignol responded this way:

Quote:
Rossignol views the Modern Ski Racing Team as a unique instructional channel for recreational ski racers. They (the MSR Team) will help Rossignol gain market share by increasing product awareness within the recreational racing world and by teaching their cutting-edge Waist Steering technique. Thus, recreational racers throughout the country will gain interactive exposure to innovative products.
While the technique may not yet be turning the heads of Bode Miller or the Austrian national team, Kirchhoff and Dranow taught a “Waist Steering” clinic with almost 30 nationally-ranked Nastar racers in March, and have a tour of clinics across the country slated for this winter. Their first will be a Thanksgiving race clinic at Snowbasin Resort, November 25, 26 and 27, 2005.

Many racers have studied the Waist Steering technique informally on www.modernskiracing.com, and have drawn very diverse conclusions. Some bulletin
boards even have people arguing and getting angry about it. While Kirchhoff and Dranow offer all of the technique’s details for free on their website, they don’t understand why people get upset about a theoretical new ski technique which has shown to help racers ski faster and more safely.

Tommy Kirchhoff teaches Tai Chi at the Park City Racquet Club.
post #2 of 739
I've been meaning to dig a little deeper into MSRT to see what it's all about. I know what their claims are, I just haven't had a chance to see it in practice and make up my own mind. On the surface, I don't like the visual images they're using, but I will reserve judgement until I see it in context. I understand they have a video, so I may check that out and get it from the horse's mouth. At the very least, if I don't agree with it I'll have a better understanding of why.
post #3 of 739
I'd love to hear more on this as another message board I am on got very heated about it. Personally, I couldn't follow the explanations of the proponents. All I know is the opponents got pretty violent about it.
post #4 of 739
Why argue with success? I think it makes sense to take it apart and understand why it works as it does. The results are reasonably impressive, and it's not likely that guys at that level would do it just to generate buzz...

I've only glanced at the site and the video. I'm not seeing a lot that seems unorthodox, but I haven't done a real detailed analysis. The tracks look pretty good!
post #5 of 739
I saw the videos and it looks like pretty ordinary skiing to me. I guess it's just a new coaching method rather than a whole new technique.
The PMTS cult will get worked up because they talk about steering, but I don't see anything controversial at all in the video.

BK
post #6 of 739
So, Hans, You've been analyzing this for a while now. What are your current feelings about it? How would you describe for the people here at Epic the differences in terms of movement patterns and body positions between traditional carving and waist steering?

I read through the discussion forum link at the bottom of the web page you provided. In it I found what seem to be some inconsistencies. In your questions about counter Gary declares it dead. He also talks about putting majority weight on the inside ski. Then towards the end of the thread he says this about a photo of Bode (sorry folks, you'll have to go to the site and hit the forum link to see the photo).

Quote:
So here is Bode making a SuperG turn.


This is one of the clearest examples of waist skill and using the uphill ski I’ve seen to date. Look at how much “twist” he has towards the current turn. His waist is absolutely leading his outside shoulder and hip. His inside ski is absolutely skiing a shallower radius than his outside ski and he IS going to transition off that uphill ski to the next turn. IMHO. Fabulous shot and from my perspective says it all.
Here he talks about the waist leading the outside shoulder and hip. That's counter my friends. And,,, in the photo Bode's outside ski is on a clearly higher edge angle than his inside ski, just as Gary says. If the inside ski is carrying substantial weight (which Gary seems to declares as a crucial element of his waist steering technique) then the only way the inside and outside ski will stay in directional harmony is by steering the inside ski, or totally disengaging the outside ski. And if that were indeed the case one has to ask the question, how does Bode win World Cup SG races steering the ski he has most of his weight on? Steering is sloooooow,,, and SG races are not won by people who don't ride a clean carve.

So here's my answer. In this picture of Bode the outside ski is not disengaged,,, notice the bend in it and the snow flying off of it. The outside ski is carrying the majority of his weight, it's carving a clean turn, and the lightly pressured, lower edge angled inside ski is being kept in directional harmony with the carving outside ski through the use of inside leg rotational tension. Because of the minimal amount of weight on the inside ski the slowing affects of this inside ski guiding are very minor.

Hans, I don't believe this was a good photo for Gary to hold up as a banner of what waist steering is. It displays no elements of technique dissimilar from what we strive to promote in efficient traditional carving. That leaves me a bit perplexed as to just what the heck waist steering really is. I look forward to your response to my initial questions to help me sort it out.
post #7 of 739
The decription of MSRT (post of Feb 13):
http://www.nastar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=394&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start =105

and a discussion:
http://www.nastar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=608&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start =15

http://www.modernskiracing.com/techn.htm and the links provided

Epicski - discussion:
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...ht=Waisteering
(title: Herminator, post 21 ff.)

in German:
http://www.carving-ski.de/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5021&start=0&postdays=0&postorder= asc&highlight=
(extremely long, first good discussion, later hijacked and mostly off-topic)

Nice to hear from you again, Hans.
Thanks for the article. Do I have it right that Park City Record is a local paper and the whole text you´re quoting is the article of August 7,2005?

Btw, the article says the guys "Develop New Ski Technique" and "... the technique may not yet be turning the heads of Bode Miller or the Austrian national team" while the authors emphasize that it´s no invention but description of what the WC stars already are doing (cf. the comments of Bode which Rick analyzes here).

As to the Rossi sponsorship I understand that they have been promoting the brand a lot. They seem to have a certain influence within the Nastar community and so many skiers simply must be interesting for the company:
"They (the MSR Team) will help Rossignol gain market share by increasing product awareness within the recreational racing world..."
IMO, just the fact Rossi grants them some money is no proof R. identifies with the technique itself.

It reminds me of HH and Head though I have never heard of any "grant" or "sponsorhip" for HSS or PMTS.

I by no means don´t condemn the relationships, it´s just my comments.

Looking forward to discussing MSRT. Let´s not forget that their book due in the fall should/will say much more. I agree that the videos I saw were nice but close to "pretty ordinary skiing" BK mentiones and that I also haven´t seen "a lot that seems unorthodox" as ssh writes.
Btw, the most interesting comments I ever read were those by Nicola on the German site, I mean those you know.
post #8 of 739
Hans, you're back! You and I have discussed this a number of times. I would like to hear what Hans has to say about this. Personaly, and I have also discussed this with my teacher (26 years teaching second generation Cheng Man Ching style yang short form), it seems to me that they are confusing what is apparent with what is real. It doesn't jive with my understanding and as I relayed it, it didn't jive with my teachers understanding either.

This grasshoppers understanding of what is happening at the waist is the storing and gathering of energy (chi), not to be confused with force (muscle power), which originates from the heel (root), powered by the leg, controled at the waist, and expressed in the body.

Yes, the waist and spine are essential in the developement and delivery of force, but more as the tranmission and not the actual origin of the force.

Do movements originate from the waist or from the root?

Are we speaking of external force or internal energy?

From a western perspective, my guess is they are effectively engaging the core structure to allow the body movements to become more holistic and harmonious. I'll give them credit for bring attention to the pelvic girdle and core structure though.

You know what think on this Hans, I'd like to know what you think. Later,RicB.
post #9 of 739
Quote:
I'll give them credit for bring attention to the pelvic girdle and core structure though.
Second that, Ric.
post #10 of 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
...
This grasshoppers understanding of what is happening at the waist is the storing and gathering of energy (chi), not to be confused with force (muscle power), which originates from the heel (root), powered by the leg, controled at the waist, and expressed in the body.
....
Later,RicB.
Ric, this sounds like an advertisement for PMTS! Maybe PMTS and Tai Chi skiing (at the Grasshopper level at least) are one and the same!
post #11 of 739
Does waiststeering = anticipation + counter?
post #12 of 739

Tommy and Gary don't always see eye to eye!

Hey guys,

We've finally got the system to take our log in. We are sorry it has taken such a long time to get up here and all the angst that has followed us around the MB's.

I want to thank Wolf for getting this thread started and hope we will be welcomed on your MB. We wish to be very respectful of the pedigree of thegroup up here and simply want a fair chance to explain our ideas - that's all.

We, Tommy and I, are up here to answer direct questions as best we can in a productive environment. I'm sure some of you know that we have had boiling
oil poured on us from the parapets just because we dared to look at technique a bit differently.

I'd like to introduce ourselves by a piece Tommy wrote on another MB to try and get a tone set. We are serious about helping the recreational racer and have put a ton of thought and effort into what we do, this should help explain why we are out here.

Tommy's post

Quote:
Hello Sports Fans,

Here's the situation as I see it:
I am a ski racer who has dedicated
23 years of my life to the this sport.
Gary Dranow was ski racing when
I was still in diapers. So needless
to say, we both have a long-time
love affair with ski racing.

I have studied this "art" from a great
many masters; my uncle
was an alternate on the U.S. Ski Team
with Billy Kidd; his son (my cousin)
was one of the top ski racers in Michigan.
My high-school coach was a former ski
racer and PSIA Level III; his son and daughter
were both "rabbits" at nearly every USSA race.
I have talked shop with all kinds of coaches
and ski racers over the last 23 years. Austrian,
French, Italian, Yugoslavian, Swiss, German,
Canadian, Australian, New Zealand,
and U.S. personalities of every description.
When Americas Opening Worldcup races
were held at Park City Mountain, I received
on-course accreditation, and gladly spent
the whole weekend taking photos and notes.

Suffice it to say that three years ago, I was
an accomplished racer and still a ski racing
nutcase .

Then I started practicing Tai Chi because I had
a theory that "it could help ski racing." The more
I learned and practiced, the more I saw how
the two were similar. Then out of the blue,
US Ski Team trainer Sasha Rearick asked me
if I would teach the Men's Team Tai Chi.
So I got to hang out with those guys and talk
shop for a whole summer. Schlopy, Ligety, Friedman,
all the Park City summer guys.

This fueled my already fanatical drive for ski
racing even more. The team gave me a racesuit
as a token of their appreciation, so I said I would
get back into ski racing myself.

I ran into Gary Dranow on an early-season day
at Brighton (early November 2004). We had skied
together a little at the Nastar Nationals the spring
before, and sort of got along. So instead of ripping
powder and hucking cliffs at Brighton like I had
intended that day (which is what I do), I skied
race turns with Gary and Liz. He told me some
things about racing and I told him some things
about Tai Chi. At the end of the day, we were
both skiing much better.

I went into an intensive mode of experimentation
on skis. I tried to simply make Tai Chi waist-turning
movements on my skis instead of angulating at the
hip. This changed everything from the "old school"
way of doing it-- but it worked! I had seen a picture
of Bode Miller ripping a GS turn with his weight on
the uphill ski; and that made sense to the Tai Chi
integration. The more I played with it, the better
my skis carved in unison. Day after day I skied
by myself at Deer Valley, working out the bugs
to best of MY BODY's LIMITATIONS (that's important,
please keep it in mind).

As it developed (this was December 2004 through
January 2005) I began calling it "Waist Steering."
I explained it to Dranow, who absolutely didn't
agree with it; but he would still listen because
I helped him so much with his posture on skis
(stance was what he called it; I think he more
often calls it posture these days). I gave him
new information; he'd dispute it, play with it
for a while, then come back and tell me I was
right. This happened about a hundred times
in three months.

You wouldn't even believe the number of e-mails
and cell phone minutes between us last winter.
And sometime in early February, Gary Dranow
said to me, "Waist Steering is the way!"

Suddenly, this completely broken, 50-year old
jalopy of a man started kicking everyone's butt
in Nastar and then in Masters racing. He was
brilliant in a 20-second tactical Nastar course,
and amazingly fast and stable in a 120-second
Masters course. The most amazing part of it
was the fact that he stopped falling. Every time
I had skied with Gary Dranow, he crashed like
no one you had ever seen. He just stopped falling.

I was skiing better than ever, and so was Gary.
Then, Gary came up with a learning progression
for recreational-racers. He showed it to me and
I thought, "that's silly, it's just too simple."

Gary told me the results from a few "test classes"
were astonishing. He had people run the Nastar
course in the morning; then he taught them a
few simple drills and put them back in the course.
Their times were so much better, it was like magic.

I decided I needed to see one of these things, so
I came out for Gary's 8th or 10th class. His messages
were pretty refined because he had been a coach
forever, and because he had taught the Waist Steering
drills several times. I'll never forget Donna France.
She skied in front of me on the first run; it was a
pretty flat slope, and she was sliding all over the place,
a little bent over and stiff. After three runs of Gary's
progression drills, we came to Silver Queen, which
is one of Park City's steepest groomers. Donna France
ripped carving turns on two skis, all the way down that
face. It was like she had drank a magic potion. I had
never seen anything like it.

We held a clinic just before Nastar Nationals. Unfortunately,
there was about three feet of powder on the mountain,
so teaching the progression as it should be taught was
impossible. We worked on tactics, and some technique,
and we ran a great course (set and coached by Warren
Wilkensen) all day long. How did our students do? There
were an inordinate number of medals in our group.
Snowbasin Clinic

So, Gary and I talked a lot and raced a lot. Gary's
accomplishments are well-known from the 04-05
season, both in Masters and Nastar. I won my
first race in March, and still hold the Nastar title of #1
Expert Male, 30-34 in the state of Utah.

Gary and I agreed that this technique
should be offered to everyone, so we built a website.
By happenstance, we shot a crappy video of the
progression, and put it for sale on the website.
As a well-known ski racing enthusiast said of the video,
"The quality is of course terrible. The content is brilliant.
How you figured that out is beyond me."

Why two guys spend their own money philanthropically
to enhance the sport of ski racing is easy to figure
out: We love the sport, and we enjoy teaching people
to go faster. There certainly shouldn't be anything
wrong with trying to break even.

Why other people get mad, rude, outraged or even
verbally challenging to two guys who are offering
all kinds of good information for free is a mystery.
It's like TV-- if you don't like it, turn the channel.

Waist Steering is new. You don't have to accept
it today. But as more and more skiers and coaches
are exposed to it, we sincerely believe this is
the direction ski racing is going to migrate. Gary
and I are no rookies at ski racing, and we didn't
come up with this over a case of beer and a pizza.

If a broken down old man like Gary Dranow can
stop falling and start creaming guys he's never
touched, what do you think a young, high-level
athlete can do with a technique like this?

The answer lies in the LIMITATIONS OF THE BODY.
I'm not talking about the strength of The Hulk,
or the flexibility of a yogi. But coordination of
the body, flexibility of the waist and hips,
physical expression of "the intention," and
projection of power from a balanced and stable
base. This, my friends, is practice of Tai Chi,
or the Supreme Ultimate. Practice, practice, practice.

When my teacher, Master Fu, says "repeat,"
I do it again many, many times.
We are simply not out here to piss people off, get into arguments but all discussions are welcome.

As soon as Tommy and I get clear of some stuff we are tied up with, if you all don't mind, we will do our best to answer each question as best we can.

In the end, I believe what we are talking about won't be viewed as gimmicky, radical or simply bunk.

We'd appreciate it if the Mods would keep this thing on track as there are those out there that post completely untrue comments about Tommy and I that do not deal with the real subject. It just doesn't help develop the conversation.

We regret all previous misunderstandings and wish to move forward in an open environment. We are not sensitive guys (really, I know I've over reacted to some of stuff, I apologize) and can certainly appreciate opposing views respectfully as long as we get a fair chance to be a part of the conversation.

Oh yeah, as you guys all know I am a broken down old truck. I've got more broken pieces than working ones. I, personally, though only 7 months into my study of "Fu Style" Tai Chi Chun have become addicted to what it has done for my body and more importantly sports. I hope to post an "Outsiders Take" on the practice of Tai Chi and its relationship to sports in general in a bit. I believe I am in a position to speak to this and draw the nexus between the practice of Tai Chi and sports (I'm a single HC Golfer, Equestrian, Tennis player. external style Martial Artists for about 30 years and ski racer).

One important misconception I need to clear up. Tommy and I are not at all in lock step. He presents ideas and I go nuts, don't buy it and then go out play with it until I either understand or . . . We still have plenty of points that we have ongoing tug-o-wars. So attributing what I say to Tommy and vice versa isn't accurate. Tommy is far and away the authority on Tai Chi and he is a fabulous skier, but he does not get out on the Masters hills. I am a new Tai Chi student and simply do not understand on a physical level Chi, Ming, Dan Tien and on. I'm practicing, practicing, practicing: I have the most basic understanding of "waist steering". Tommy and I do not ski alike but there is more and more a middle ground as we work together.

Tai Chi's basic principals has applications across the board for me I am simply talking about posture, balance and movement and how this affects the body at rest and in motion - that's all

Peace!

Gary Dranow
post #13 of 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Here he talks about the waist leading the outside shoulder and hip. That's counter my friends. And,,, in the photo Bode's outside ski is on a clearly higher edge angle than his inside ski, just as Gary says. If the inside ski is carrying substantial weight (which Gary seems to declares as a crucial element of his waist steering technique) then the only way the inside and outside ski will stay in directional harmony is by steering the inside ski, or totally disengaging the outside ski. And if that were indeed the case one has to ask the question, how does Bode win World Cup SG races steering the ski he has most of his weight on? Steering is sloooooow,,, and SG races are not won by people who don't ride a clean carve.

So here's my answer. In this picture of Bode the outside ski is not disengaged,,, notice the bend in it and the snow flying off of it. The outside ski is carrying the majority of his weight, it's carving a clean turn, and the lightly pressured, lower edge angled inside ski is being kept in directional harmony with the carving outside ski through the use of inside leg rotational tension. Because of the minimal amount of weight on the inside ski the slowing affects of this inside ski guiding are very minor.

Hans, I don't believe this was a good photo for Gary to hold up as a banner of what waist steering is. It displays no elements of technique dissimilar from what we strive to promote in efficient traditional carving. That leaves me a bit perplexed as to just what the heck waist steering really is. I look forward to your response to my initial questions to help me sort it out.
I've always felt that looking at a SINGLE picture, with no progression and sense of terrain is pretty useless and certainly open to misinterpretation. This seems to be a classic case.
post #14 of 739
Gary, in your postings, can you get the paragraphs to not wrap to half a column? It makes reading them difficult as you have to keep scrolling and scrolling.
post #15 of 739

The problem with Stills

Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky
I've always felt that looking at a SINGLE picture, with no progression and sense of terrain is pretty useless and certainly open to misinterpretation. This seems to be a classic case.
We totally agree. Video! This way one can see from turn to turn
what the racer is doing to affect his tactics therefore line.

Sometimes one can see elements of what has lead to the position
in the still photo. There is plenty of room for intrepetation.

I do have to catch up on what all you guys are saying, I'm
way behind the loop since I've been buried this summer
and haven't been up here for a long time.

We'll be reading away in the coming days and weeks
post #16 of 739
Gary-
That was the kind of enthusiastic, positive promotion of ski racing technique I like to see- no bashing of others just to sell product. You've sold me on the program. The quality of the contents I'll decide on for myself, but I'll go with an open mind and see what there is to see. Keep it up and I'll post my questions as I form them.
-Mike
post #17 of 739
Welcome to EpicSki Gary,

Can you explain exactly which muscles are employed in waisteering and how those muscle movements effect the ski?
post #18 of 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky
I've always felt that looking at a SINGLE picture, with no progression and sense of terrain is pretty useless and certainly open to misinterpretation. This seems to be a classic case.
Sibhusky, watch, analyze and critique this level of skiing long enough and a still shot explodes into a mental video. You usually know where they are, how they got there, and where they're headed.

Gary, glad you're joining us to present your ideas in person. I look forward to your answers, and will pose some of my own questions. By the way, Warren Wilkensen, now there's a name from the past. We coached together when Schlopy was just a kid in our program. Lost track of him when he left to follow Erik around.
post #19 of 739
HEY RICK!

Glad to be here. I just kept having issues trying to login.

Tommy's out of town for the week and I'm buried. We will be back up to try and add to the discussion. We both appreciate the warm welcome very much!!

As for Warren. He is doing great. He is one of my mentors as well. I have jumped back into the USSA thing after 15 years away and getting to work with Warren is fabulous.

He has recently taken a position at Rowmark here in PC and will be working with the J3's. Right now he is up in Canada running his fishing tours, the wife and I are thinking about visiting him up there in September to try and hook a Muskie or two. Really for the Golf ;-)

Will be back on within the week. Tommy and I will work hard to make sense of our work.

As I mentioned to CheckRacer, its really rather simple but not so simple to grasp. I know, I've had fits ever since Tommy threw the proverbial wrench in my own work product a year ago - I was close, he just bashed the door open for me.

Be back soon and thanks again to all for the warm welcome!

Dranow for
post #20 of 739
Welcome Gary. You won't get any argument from me about tai chi's benefit to the body. I've been practicing for about 4 years now, and it is the single best thing I have ever done for my body. Great transfer to skiing too.

I'm with TR, in that I want to understand how "Waisteering" is acomplished from a biomechnical perspective, what movement is originating from the waist, what muscles are involved, and most importantly what are you two defining as the "waist"? What's your view of the hips in all this?

Right now, even though I'm totaly into tai chi practice, and am totaly into skiing, I don't agree with your interpretation of the two. Later, RicB.
post #21 of 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si
Ric, this sounds like an advertisement for PMTS! Maybe PMTS and Tai Chi skiing (at the Grasshopper level at least) are one and the same!
I don't see it that way. I'll just say that I think there is alot of value in PMTS from what I know, but I still can't get past the idea that there is alot being left out. The whole notion of cutting down the whole forest to be the tallest tree, really turns me off also. Lets not side track this thread. Later, RicB.

P.S. I don't do tai chi skiing, I ski. Just like I don't tai chi anything. I take the structural awareness, holistic movement priciples and mental focus and apply them to the task at hand. This doesn't produce tai chi skiing, but has produced the best skiing that I am capable of.
post #22 of 739
Tommy's uncle raced; his cousin raced; his high school coach raced; his high school coach's kids raced; and, he's talked to coaches. Gary smokes the PC sprint race course, but finishes DEAD LAST in every regular season Master's race, yet promotes that he finished 2nd overall in his age catagory (there were only 2 or 3 guys in his age group at each race).

Rossi sponsorship? Is that what it's called when Rossi gives you skis to hand out as door prizes?

It's in the newspapers, because Gary sent them a write-up. So?

I dare anyone to head over to the NASTAR MB and disagree with their gimmick. Try pointing out the testing done at any of three ski academies in NE. It was found to be of some benefit on the flats. That was the ONLY positive response from actual USSA coaches.

Gary and his bud JTBear will promptly ban you.

Gary broke very specific pacesetter rules by beating his own HC by as much as 300% to make sure he was #1 in the nation. He had our races recalculated by NASTAR because our pacesetter improved by 10%.

If it walks like a creep, talks like a creep, well, then it's probably just Gary.
post #23 of 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
I don't see it that way. I'll just say that I think there is alot of value in PMTS from what I know, but I still can't get past the idea that there is alot being left out. The whole notion of cutting down the whole forest to be the tallest tree, really turns me off also. Lets not side track this thread. Later, RicB.

P.S. I don't do tai chi skiing, I ski. Just like I don't tai chi anything. I take the structural awareness, holistic movement priciples and mental focus and apply them to the task at hand. This doesn't produce tai chi skiing, but has produced the best skiing that I am capable of.
Ric, I think you took me too seriously. My only real stand is that effecient and effective skiing usually starts at the feet and works its way up the chain from there. In no way was I trying to infer anything about your approach to skiing which, from what I have read, I consider you to be open and objective. Sorry for any misommunication on my part.
post #24 of 739
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski999
Tommy's uncle raced; his cousin raced; his high school coach raced; his high school coach's kids raced; and, he's talked to coaches. Gary smokes the PC sprint race course, but finishes DEAD LAST in every regular season Master's race, yet promotes that he finished 2nd overall in his age catagory (there were only 2 or 3 guys in his age group at each race).

Rossi sponsorship? Is that what it's called when Rossi gives you skis to hand out as door prizes?

It's in the newspapers, because Gary sent them a write-up. So?

I dare anyone to head over to the NASTAR MB and disagree with their gimmick. Try pointing out the testing done at any of three ski academies in NE. It was found to be of some benefit on the flats. That was the ONLY positive response from actual USSA coaches.

Gary and his bud JTBear will promptly ban you.

Gary broke very specific pacesetter rules by beating his own HC by as much as 300% to make sure he was #1 in the nation. He had our races recalculated by NASTAR because our pacesetter improved by 10%.

If it walks like a creep, talks like a creep, well, then it's probably just Gary.
What is this ?
I mean there has to be some kind of control of what someone can say on a forum.
If it is just a free for all it is senseless to carry on.
In the meantime, I am out of here.
post #25 of 739
A little off topic I guess, but this thread is a perfect example of why I quit racing after a year: It took all the fun out of skiing.
post #26 of 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf
What is this ?
I mean there has to be some kind of control of what someone can say on a forum.
If it is just a free for all it is senseless to carry on.
In the meantime, I am out of here.
As far as ski999's assessment of the initial background on Gary, I have to agree, most of it was about who his relatives were or with whom he has spoken. Also, I wondered what exactly Rossignol sponsorship consisted of.

There is obviously some negativity on the part of ski999 towards Gary, but I don't think it has crossed the line. I look forward to some fact-based discussion as this thread moves on. I personally thought a lot of the originally-posted article lacked cold hard information.
post #27 of 739
If I pick up a couple mental cues from the program or it helps me understand technique better (even through disagreement with the program), then I consider the money well spent. From the video clips on their website, I see very little that is radically different from current methods, but perhaps they've formatted it in a way that can easily be taught. I haven't made up my mind yet, but going negative at this point isn't healthy for the forum. Gary came in positive, so let's try to keep the discussion going in that manner.

As for how they market their program, you have to be a big self-promoter to get noticed. Unlike other, not-to-be-named programs, for the most part they don't bash other routes of learning. Go to their website and read the credentials. None of it is particularly overwhelming, but it shows a long time love of the sport. That they've used the NASTAR site as a springboard for their program is no suprise- it's one of the few racing-oriented message boards out there. If they've come up with a new way to look at or present technique, I am willing to support them.

Give them a chance to make their case. If you don't agree with their theories, call them on it and explain why you believe differently.
post #28 of 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky
As far as ski999's assessment of the initial background on Gary, I have to agree, most of it was about who his relatives were or with whom he has spoken. Also, I wondered what exactly Rossignol sponsorship consisted of.

There is obviously some negativity on the part of ski999 towards Gary, but I don't think it has crossed the line. I look forward to some fact-based discussion as this thread moves on. I personally thought a lot of the originally-posted article lacked cold hard information.
Sounds like a personal attack to me. If you want to question someones marketing thats one thing but, that whole creep thing sounds defamatory to me.

That little bit of nastieness out of the way, I am looking forward to some fact based discussion myself.
post #29 of 739
I guess you missed Gary and his wife calling me a wife beating child abuser at our PASR MB. They didn't like my opinion of the merits of MSRT in which I was highly critical both of the system and how he treated my friends that wasted money on his clinic.
But, yeah, go ahead and discuss the merits of his baloney. Sorry to have chimed in.

And Liquidnails: you quit racing because of something someone posted on a MB? Really?
post #30 of 739
ski999, let's ignore what happened on other boards, okay? I think a number of the folks on this board have the wherewithal to evaluate this technique objectively and give us less cerebral skiers an idea if this is something we should look into or ignore. I won't pretend to understand most of the technique discussions here, but I try to.
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