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# Quick Question

I have been asked the following question as part of a job application, I think the answer is absorb but just wanting to check.
When you reach the end of a ski turn long or short radius do you flex/bend your ankles to apply pressure to the skis or to absorb pressure from the skis?
Thanks
You are right, ERC, but why do you think so?

Welcome to EpicSki, and good luck with the job!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nolo You are right, ERC.
Another wordy reply from the pro's!
Thanks
I edited a few more words into the post. ERC may have an interview and have to explain his/her answer. You might as well clarify in your own mind here, with the help of the group.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nolo why do you think so?
Can I take a stab at this?

Because you absorb to relieve the pressure that has been built up in the skis during the turn -- once the skis are relieved of that pressure, you can release their current edges easily and fall into the next turn?
Very nice explanation, faisasy!
I think this is one of those trick questions where there is no right or wrong answer. The employer is really seeking to evaluate ones ability to express oneself and how much technical BS creeps into the answer.

My first question about this is: "What do you define as the end of a turn?" If you define it as the point in the turn where the skis are flat in transition from one set of edges to another (i.e. the exact end of one turn and start of another occur at the same point in time), then at that point the stresses of the turn should have already been fully released. In this case, my answer would be that I flex my ankles as I move my CM forward to initiate the next turn. But I don't flex my ankles to pressure the skis more. I let more pressure happen as a result of the turn. Unless I'm trying to ski like Harald.

But what if one defined the start of a turn as when one is facing directly into the fall line? There are an unlimited number of ways of answering this question with a perfectly valid response.
Absord... mostly.
Unless you want to set an edge at the end of the turn and pivot.

Turnalot
Quote:
 Originally Posted by sir turnalot Absord... mostly. Unless you want to set an edge at the end of the turn and pivot. Turnalot
Ah, that would be ABSORB... mostly.

Do you ever reach "the end of a turn"? In a series of "by the book", nice round turns?
ERC K2,

as described above, if you want a smooth transition into the next turn, absorb.
If you want anything else, presure can be an instrument. As an example for dolphin style turns you can use the resilience of the ski.

Rusty & Yuki,

we have left turns and right turns and we have inflection points between. I would say a turn starts at an inflection point and ends at the next one.

Straight lines excluded !

CarvingFan
Who was it who talked about turns as being fall line to fall line (rather than the more normal traverse to traverse type thing)?

So, not talking about C turns, i.e. horizontal, vertical, horizontal. But vertical, horizontal, vertical.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat Who was it who talked about turns as being fall line to fall line (rather than the more normal traverse to traverse type thing)? So, not talking about C turns, i.e. horizontal, vertical, horizontal. But vertical, horizontal, vertical.
That's not a turn, Fox, that's a side step. When doing a turn you end up going a different direction than when you started,,,, that's the point of it.

In the thing you describe you end up going the same direction as before (down the falline), your just doing it on a line a bit to the left or right. Good for going straight down the slope, and side stepping when necessary to avoid trees, rocks, lift tower, other skiers, etc.
Well, I was referring to a session I had with my training director, but he probably picked it up from somewhere else. The point being made was that the definition of the starting point for a turn being across the fall line when the skis were not on edge was just as arbitrary as saying the turn started in the fall line with the skis on maximum edge angle. In the first case you are talking about the edge angle going from flat to maximum and back to flat (separating turns by which edge you are on). In the second case you talk about a single edge angle going from negative through flat to positive or vice versa(separating turns by the direction of edge change: positive or negative).

How many of us have been told to start our exam demos from straight down the fall line?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by therusty I think this is one of those trick questions where there is no right or wrong answer. The employer is really seeking to evaluate ones ability to express oneself and how much technical BS creeps into the answer. My first question about this is: "What do you define as the end of a turn?" If you define it as the point in the turn where the skis are flat in transition from one set of edges to another (i.e. the exact end of one turn and start of another occur at the same point in time), then at that point the stresses of the turn should have already been fully released. In this case, my answer would be that I flex my ankles as I move my CM forward to initiate the next turn. But I don't flex my ankles to pressure the skis more. I let more pressure happen as a result of the turn. Unless I'm trying to ski like Harald. But what if one defined the start of a turn as when one is facing directly into the fall line? There are an unlimited number of ways of answering this question with a perfectly valid response.
This suggests to me that the PSIA not have a standard definition for completion. Is really true?
This is an example of taking something real easy and overcomplicating it.

The turn ends when the skis are no longer turning.
PSIA does speak about completion phase of a turn, but "when you reach the end of a ski turn" could mean turn is ended, new turn is beginning. If you're flexing through the transition maybe you are using some kind of down unweighting. Anyway, the answer is absorb, flexing ankles decreases pressure.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by ERC K2[color=black When you reach the end of a ski turn long or short radius do you flex/bend your ankles to apply pressure to the skis or to absorb pressure from the skis?[/color]Thanks
Sir turnalot, I agree. This is NOT an open-ended question.

The question does not care about turn radius or intent. The question says you are flexing/bending at the end of the turn.

Flexing absorbs. Always.
I'm not an instructor, so this is my layperson's view: when I START something it presumably means I was in a state of rest/stability; conversely, when I END something it presumably means I return to a state of rest/stability.

So if I COMPLETE a turn when I am facing across the hill (skis pointing at 3 or 9 o'clock), I am in a state of rest/stability. When I'm facing down the fall-line, I am not stable, because if I do nothing I will continue down the slope. So from that perspective, I'd think of a turn as going from one stable position to the next, i.e. from traverse-to-traverse.

Again, this is just my very personal, non-technical, non-instructor view.
Rusty, this debate on the point at which a turn starts has been going on for a while now. My feeling is that this is innovation gone astray. Our job as Pros is to simplify the intricate. All the introduction of this new concept has done is complicate the simple. That's not what we're here to do.

Sir turnalot and faisasy provide the intuitive response, it's why the old definition of a turn is the better. It jives with students.

Big E has it right.
Actually, it was in eSki's book (or, perhaps, during one of his ESA talks) that I first thought about the concept of thinking of ski turns as fall line to fall line. I believe that the point in thinking about them this way is to smooth out the edge change/transition. When we think about "ending" and "beginning", we can create artificial movement where none is needed. It is a fun and enlightening experiment to ski fall-line to fall-line.

Regarding the definition of "turn completion," however, I believe that it is universally accepted that a turn "ends" when there is no longer any need to resist the turning force of ski against snow. This usually occurs when the skis are flattened enough to release the edges that were holding the skis on-line.

As weems said in the excerpt from his book, skiing is all about the edge change...
The "absorb" answer is correct for carved turns. However, if you were doing "edge-to-edge" hop turns (which we call "shortswings" in the UK), it could be said that you would be flexing your knees and ankles and applying pressure down on to the skis as you land at the end of the turn. Although to be precise the pressure would not be fully applied until the end of the downward flexing movement.
In that case, flexing knees and ankles landing hop turn, pressure is increasing but the act of flexion is moderating (decreasing) pressure relative to landing with straight legs (softening the landing). Flexing absorbs.
Let's see if we can get this "quick question" to two pages...
When turning left you are on the left edges of the ski, when turning right you are on the right edges, the turn ends when one goes from the left edges to the right or vice versa. I'm not expecting a long transition on a flat ski here. The turn ends when you move from one set of edges to the other or in the case of a wedge turn when the downhill skis inside edge is released.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by telerod15 Flexing absorbs.
Thank you, I stand corrected. Of course the flexing is co-incidental with, but does not cause the pressure. In fact it delays it.
Quite a bit has been said about looking at turns as going from fall line to fall line at various times on Epic. If you are interested in the idea

A couple of the posts seem to be out of sequence but all the discussion is there.

For those of you who are so tied to the traditional idea of a turn being the C-shape we always talk about there might be something in there to make you think a little.

yd
Ydnar,
I understand what your trying to accomplish with this alternate perspective,,, you're using it as a mental tool for smoothing transitions. I fully support the concept if limited to the context of an exercise used for that specific purpose. But I balk at the idea of changing the long held concept of where a turn truly begins and ends.

Reason 1: Falline to falline is just plain wrong.

When skis are tipped onto their right side edges they begin to turn right, when tipped on their left edges they begin to turn left. When they are untipped (returned to flat) they stop turning and the turn comes to an immediate end. These points at which actual turning begins and ends are the logical locations to designate as the beginning and end of a single turn. Students quickly grasp this concept because it's simple and it jives with their prior experiences and thoughts on turning.

Reason 2: It's really two turns.

Falline to falline is really two turns. One to the left and one to the right.

Reason 3: It ain't about the falline.

In the traditional concept of the beginning and end of a turn the falline doesn't play much of a role. In real skiing edge engagement and release are not necessarily tied to the falline, they can occur at many different orientations to the falline. Viewing the start of a turn as simply the rolling of the ski onto edge, and the finish as the return to flat, allows for all those variables.

Even in the falline to falline philosophy the S turns described can, in real skiing, occur so that the apex of the turn is not in the falline. In fact, turns can be made in such a manner that the transition between left and right edge engagements (the traditional beginning and end of a turn) can occur in the falline, bringing the transition and the end of the turn (according to the falline to falline philosophy) into unity, the very thing this new concept is trying to avoid.

Reason 4: It creates new problems.

While the falline to falline philosophy may serve to attract focus away from the transition in the hopes of smoothing it, it's dulling focus on a portion of the sequence that contains some very crucial skill areas.

There are multiple types of turn transitions that need to be learned and refined if a skier is to advance to upper ability levels. This cannot be accomplished by treating transitions as a non event. They MUST be focused on.

Same with turn initiations. Progressive edge engagement is a skill that evades the masses. To refine sensitivity and feel for the edge the student must key his focus into the moment in the turn where it begins,,, the transition.

These skills don't just magically develop with no direct attention being placed upon them,,,, yet distracting attention from the very moment when these skills are executed is what the falline to falline philosophy strives to do.
--------

So, as I said, while I do see how using the concept as an exercise to achieve a specific purpose could prove very effective, I see many pitfalls in the idea of completely supplanting the traditional edge engagement to edge release theory with it.
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