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The ten minute lesson - Page 2

post #31 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiDeC58
Strikes me as a ten minute "tease/sales pitch" for which I am asked to spend $1.00 per minute. Doesn't sound like a good deal to me. It seems unlikely that I would get much out of this time and would be paying you $10.00 to listen to your pitch. Isn't the advertiser supposed to absorb the upfront cost of the advertising in hopes of making it back plus profit if people buy the product?
If the product was all sales pitch, yes. But the concept of paying for a trial size of a product is not new. I present to you the "two ball" sleeve of golf balls and the travel size bottle of mouthwash. A key concept behind the 10 minute tip is that it gives the guest something that they can use in a short amount of time. The question is not whether it is possible that this could be worth $10. From the responses we've seen, some people will find it worthwhile and some won't. The real question is "Could it be worth that much to enough people to make it successful?" One dollar a minute sounds expensive. A 10% time improvement in a Nastar run for $10 and 10 minutes sounds a lot better.
post #32 of 54
I think 10 minutes is too short, and $10 is too much to spend on what would probably not be all that valuable. Now if you could get a 20 minute lesson wrapped up with a lift ticket somehow... that would fly.
post #33 of 54

Bump for Throwback Thursday. 

post #34 of 54

Has anyone gone to a $10 video lesson?  It just seems like kind of a no brainer.

 

Set up a a stand at the top of a blue, and put up a camera system at the bottom.  Put an L3 at the bottom to analyze the skiing for the student and give them a drill to work on.  You could sell the video for another 10 bucks and E-mail it to the student.  A ski school might sell a lot of lessons form this.

 

I would do it.

post #35 of 54

It's amazing how technology has totally changed the what's possible with this over the past 9 years. As @Stranger pointed out, you can now easily sell the video and send it via email. Another issue that popped up was the issue of the instructor  having to handle cash. This is easily solved by going credit card only and having an iPhone (or whatever device you prefer) that can take credit cards. Still don't know if it would work from a marketing/logistical standpoint though.

post #36 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger View Post

Has anyone gone to a $10 video lesson?  It just seems like kind of a no brainer.

Set up a a stand at the top of a blue, and put up a camera system at the bottom.  Put an L3 at the bottom to analyze the skiing for the student and give them a drill to work on.  You could sell the video for another 10 bucks and E-mail it to the student.  A ski school might sell a lot of lessons form this.

I would do it.
I'd do it too, mostly because I've never had video taken. I'd want a copy, though. Maybe charge an extra $5 to get an mp4 loaded on a cheap USB drive (these come to $3.60/ea) for people who want to take it home?

ETA: Oops, RunSki beat me to it. Downloads would work great, too. Isn't that how on-mountain photographers work? I think at Alta there are PCs at the base where you can look at and order photos, so it ought not be too hard.
post #37 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
 

Has anyone gone to a $10 video lesson?  It just seems like kind of a no brainer.

 

Set up a a stand at the top of a blue, and put up a camera system at the bottom.  Put an L3 at the bottom to analyze the skiing for the student and give them a drill to work on.  You could sell the video for another 10 bucks and E-mail it to the student.  A ski school might sell a lot of lessons form this.

 

I would do it.

 

In the early 1970s at Aspen they had a set up where you paid $2 to a guy at the start of the run, skied down while a cameraman with a TV type camera filmed you. You then skied over to the cameraman who had a ski instructor with him and you got a replay of your run and a critique from the ski instructor.

 

Keep in mind this was before the PVR, VHS or Beta had been invented.

post #38 of 54

A few years ago, Copper set up a tent at the base of the Timberline Express and offered a one-run evaluation for nothing.  Not much interest, so it was stopped.  Recently, we've offered a 50-minute "Quickie" lesson at 9 AM every morning.  $75 with a maximum of three participants.  Usually results in a good, quick MA of your skiing and one or two focuses to take with you to work on.  If you click with your instructor and he/she isn't booked for a private lesson after the Quickie, you can request that instructor to continue with you that day either in an all-day group lesson or a private.  Seems to work well for everyone concerned.

post #39 of 54

The title of this thread reminded me of "The 5 Minute University", a comedy routine on Saturday Night Live done by Don Nevello as Father Guido Sarducci. He explains: "I will teach you in 5 minutes what the average college grad remembers 10 years after graduation". lol, I don't remember much, of course it has been way more than 10 years.

post #40 of 54
Thread Starter 

I can't even remember going to college! Wait, I do recall there was actually a ski hill in Georgia back then.

 

I tried doing the video thing at Whitetail many years ago. I taped on the hill, gave people a ticket stub with a number on it. Later in the day I was in the lodge and let people view their video for free and buy a tape (this was way before youtube and thumbdrives) of their clip for $5-10. Because I had digitized the tape, I could quickly bring up clips based on people's ticket #s.  The real intent was to sell video lessons. I did get a couple of lessons out of the deal. Dealing with cash was not a big problem. The resort was set up for that. I did it for a couple of days. It was not worth losing all the time on snow to handle the indoors part. These days with all the GoPro cameras there will be far fewer people willing to pay to see video of themselves. There will always be a market for a professionally done video product on a ski hill. The main problem is that the market is not big enough at most resorts at the price point needed for a profit from a full time effort and it's not worth the logistical effort to set up a part time operation. IMHO the best option for video lessons is an add on to a regular lessons either with a helmet cam or small cam in a pocket, viewed on the hill and copied to a thumb drive for free and doing it for tips.

post #41 of 54
Thread Starter 

My whole idea with this thread is that I had noticed that during my clinics I could often spend 5-10 minutes with one individual and make a huge change in their skiing. It's the old watch 2 turns and immediately know what their big problem is, spend 2 minutes telling them a drill, 2 minutes watching them do it and 30 seconds with feedback/summary. I thought examiners were gods for being able to do this, but after a couple years of teaching a lot of clinics and working with a lot of video I began having a lot of success doing this. My other experience with the short lesson concept was before I started teaching. I used to take long (multi week) ski trips in December. The slopes were usually relatively empty on expert terrain because not much would be open. I'd often run into intermediates who were stuck or unhappy on bump runs either because they had taken a wrong turn or bitten off more than they could chew trying to step up. After I began to recognize the difference between standing around taking a breather and standing around because the skiing wasn't working, I started doing the good Sam thing (are you all right?). Invariably I'd get the "it obviously works for you, but it aint working for me" thing. Their options were to wait a half hour for patrol to patrol to find them, walk down or figure it out. I discovered I could get most of these people self sufficiently moving in 5 minutes. That made me think teaching was easy. I've since learned how wrong that idea was, but I do remember that getting quick results with little victories is often doable.

 

I've had more than a few lessons where after an hour I can tell that we have not accomplished any more than we did in the first 10 minutes. I've also had more than a few lessons where I've had students say "Yeah I've heard that before". I'm getting the opinion that some people need to hear the same thing 10 times from 10 different people before they are ready to change their skiing. Between this phenomena, what I described above and people who only need a little feedback between regular lessons I'm thinking there is a market for the 10 minute lesson concept that is not being tapped by the ski industry.

post #42 of 54

Its interesting how this particular throwback Thursday bump has sparked a good current discussion. 

post #43 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 

I've had more than a few lessons where after an hour I can tell that we have not accomplished any more than we did in the first 10 minutes. I've also had more than a few lessons where I've had students say "Yeah I've heard that before". I'm getting the opinion that some people need to hear the same thing 10 times from 10 different people before they are ready to change their skiing. 

 

I once hired a team member to do course design and development. Initially the team member's course designs were bland, transmissive (i.e. lecture style), and cookie-cutter in feel. During review sessions, I'd consistently write in comments like "How can we excite the learner?" and "what kind of motivator can we add here?" and "let's engage the learner through xyz." It soon occurred to me that the team member was aware of what a good course looked like, but lacked the skills and knowledge to succeed. After putting the team member through some instructional design training, the situation improved significantly.

 

If someone says "yeah I've heard that before", there's a good chance that the learner is aware of what they're doing wrong, but lacks the skills and knowledge to fix it. That's where the instructor can add value. 

post #44 of 54
Thread Starter 

I once video taped a fellow pro for a computer video analysis session. When she got inside I told her I could not do the session for her because she was out of alignment. She told me she knew she had alignment issues and had not gotten around to getting properly fitted. That motivated me. I set her down in front of the PC and we looked at her turns. I showed her where she was skidding her turns, then backed up the video and showed her how her alignment issues were forcing her to make movements that end resulted in the skidding. She got aligned the next weekend and it immediately made a huge improvement in her skiing. Would she have acted that quickly if I had been the first to tell her? Eh. She definitely would not have acted without seeing the video. I'll always want to believe that a highly skilled instructor can make meaningful improvements to any student. We just have to find the right method of communication with the right content. But the failure rate sometimes makes me wonder. If this phenomena of finally getting the message after multiple attempts was not real, why do we smack ourselves on the side of the head?

post #45 of 54

Even for those who know their skiing could be improved through video, there is often a resistance to being filmed. It is one thing to understand that your skiing may not look like you want to to, but having that recorded for prosperity is a different matter altogether. There is no escaping the reality of film. I think the least resistance comes at both ends of the skill bell curve. Those who are really good are used to being filmed, whilst the not so talented probably don't care. That leaves the vast majority of us who want to look good and wish we could ski better. This group is often unwilling for the reality of how they really ski and leads to lesson resistance as well. This reality is also played out on the forum where the vast majority will not post video, including me :)

 

Perhaps the idea has no taken off everywhere because those willing to be videoed are already taking lessons?

post #46 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGolfAnalogy View Post
 

Even for those who know their skiing could be improved through video, there is often a resistance to being filmed. It is one thing to understand that your skiing may not look like you want to to, but having that recorded for prosperity is a different matter altogether. There is no escaping the reality of film. I think the least resistance comes at both ends of the skill bell curve. Those who are really good are used to being filmed, whilst the not so talented probably don't care. That leaves the vast majority of us who want to look good and wish we could ski better. This group is often unwilling for the reality of how they really ski and leads to lesson resistance as well. This reality is also played out on the forum where the vast majority will not post video, including me :)

 

Perhaps the idea has no taken off everywhere because those willing to be videoed are already taking lessons?

 

Just filming casually, I've noticed that a lot of people ski worse when you point a camera at them.

post #47 of 54
I'd do it if I don't have to pay extra for the video, nickel and dime people is a good way to piss them off.
post #48 of 54

I was going to make a snarky comment about some noob waking up a zombie thread. Then I saw TC did it on purpose. So...

 

I think the ten minute mini lesson is a great idea. It can be really beneficial for the student, getting that one tip that can cause a breakthrough. I think it would definitely get a significant number of people to try lessons who otherwise wouldn't, whether it be due to cost or convenience.

 

For the resort, at worst the program turns out to be a loss leader. They might not make money on the program itself, but if they can convert it into full lessons sold, that's great. Even if not, getting people to those breakthroughs means they are more likely to enjoy themselves, and more likely to come back and buy a lift ticket next weekend.

 

The problem I see with the program is the staffing. Mountains are always going to want their best instructors to be in their highest margin product, the private lesson. The best instructors want to be there as well, since requests are generally more lucrative than group lessons or demo lessons. So your best instructors aren't available for these quick lessons. Then you need to make sure your groups are covered. So getting quality instructors on these mini-lessons will be difficult at times.

 

The best opportunity for it is when you have instructors who are assigned to a few privates throughout the day, and have gaps between their lessons. Such as an instructor who has an 8:30 1 hour private, then a 12:30 1 hour private, and maybe one last private at 3. At that point, you could assign that instructor to mini-lessons from 10-12, then from 1:45-2:45. The only problem with that is you might not be able to offer the product all the time, and you definitely won't be able to offer it during your busiest times, when instructors are all booked solid.

post #49 of 54

How about a "guerrilla" version of the 10-minute lesson?

 

We've all seen random strangers whose skiing is calling out for some sort of pointed intervention.  It's not really the place for mere mortals (or spouses) to try to help out.  But, instructors could do it.  Forget about waiting to be asked.  Just swoop down like a good samaritan in uniform and ask, "Would you be interested in a few pointers?"

 

Imagine the good will something like this could generate.  The staffing for "random acts of kindness" could be quite flexible.  Considering how little instructors get paid, the cost could be quite modest on non-peak days.  And, it would not have to be limited to the beginner slopes.

post #50 of 54
My response would be, "Not really, I'm trying to enjoy myself."
post #51 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xela View Post
 

How about a "guerrilla" version of the 10-minute lesson?

 

We've all seen random strangers whose skiing is calling out for some sort of pointed intervention.  It's not really the place for mere mortals (or spouses) to try to help out.  But, instructors could do it.  Forget about waiting to be asked.  Just swoop down like a good samaritan in uniform and ask, "Would you be interested in a few pointers?"

 

Imagine the good will something like this could generate.  The staffing for "random acts of kindness" could be quite flexible.  Considering how little instructors get paid, the cost could be quite modest on non-peak days.  And, it would not have to be limited to the beginner slopes.


I think that would offend some people. Especially those who already "know" their skiing is top notch.

 

Also, I am a person who loves getting coaching, and gets lessons, but there are lots of days when I just want to ski.

 

I think this would come across as disingenuous, and as a business, that's not something you want.

post #52 of 54

I have a very unorthodox, but effective golf swing. It never ceases to amaze me how many people try to "fix" my swing during a round. Complete strangers giving unsolicited advice is a total invasion of personal boundaries, even if the advice is correct. Thankfully golf is game where results trump style, especially when playing for money;) It's easier to shut people up on the course than on the slopes where correctness often trumps effectiveness.

post #53 of 54
Thread Starter 

I just fixed my first ever golf student on the course yesterday. I am not a golf instructor. I didn't even sleep at a Holiday Inn Express the night before.  But I did watch this guy hit 4 worm "burner" (if you can call a 40 yard drive a burner) drives in a row and whine every time that he did not know what was wrong. This guy was giving "hack" a bad name. I couldn't see his buddy roll his eyes, but after verifying that his buddy was not going to touch this problem with a 10 foot pole (his swing looked much the same, but at least it was working), I did offer to help. But first I gave the caveat that I was not a golf teacher and golf advice on the course was generally not good. Then I asked whether he wanted a quick fix or wanted to learn what was right. We decided on quick fix. I got better results than expected but more importantly we did not hold up anyone behind us. The point here is that it is pretty easy to recognize situations when offering help is not taken as an insult.

 

I've got a new friend this summer whose drive is shorter than my 5 iron distance. I've dropped hints that his distance problem is fixable, but now just insist that we play from the white tees. He approached me about playing together. I'd love for a chance to "fix" him because he's a walking opportunity for a "I did this and got 30 extra yards" commercial where "this" could be a grip change, a simple swing drill, a training device, a new driver, or a custom fitting. But he's happy and I'm keeping my mouth shut. Maybe if I get a kilt we can play the red tees?

 

In the meantime, I have not heard about my Jim Furyk type golf swing in a while. It was real frustrating to keep hearing that comment all the time, even as a compliment. Arrrrgggh!

post #54 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

I was going to make a snarky comment about some noob waking up a zombie thread. Then I saw TC did it on purpose. So...

 

I think the ten minute mini lesson is a great idea. It can be really beneficial for the student, getting that one tip that can cause a breakthrough. I think it would definitely get a significant number of people to try lessons who otherwise wouldn't, whether it be due to cost or convenience.

 

For the resort, at worst the program turns out to be a loss leader. They might not make money on the program itself, but if they can convert it into full lessons sold, that's great. Even if not, getting people to those breakthroughs means they are more likely to enjoy themselves, and more likely to come back and buy a lift ticket next weekend.

 

The problem I see with the program is the staffing. Mountains are always going to want their best instructors to be in their highest margin product, the private lesson. The best instructors want to be there as well, since requests are generally more lucrative than group lessons or demo lessons. So your best instructors aren't available for these quick lessons. Then you need to make sure your groups are covered. So getting quality instructors on these mini-lessons will be difficult at times.

 

The best opportunity for it is when you have instructors who are assigned to a few privates throughout the day, and have gaps between their lessons. Such as an instructor who has an 8:30 1 hour private, then a 12:30 1 hour private, and maybe one last private at 3. At that point, you could assign that instructor to mini-lessons from 10-12, then from 1:45-2:45. The only problem with that is you might not be able to offer the product all the time, and you definitely won't be able to offer it during your busiest times, when instructors are all booked solid.

Staffing is always a problem for any new school "product". The solution is to limit availability.

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