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Boot lifters

post #1 of 97
Thread Starter 
I need some info about lifters. I always thought they are used to modify the stance and to allow higher edge angles. But do they do anything else? Can they enhance the performance of the boot?

I recently tried to read (with the help of Babelfish translation) some posts of a thread from fantaski. For those who don't know it's www.fantaski.it the thread is about the Rossi R2005 ( new plug) http://www.fantaski.it/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4044. Some people think that besides the increased edge angles they also increase sensitivity " Aumenta la reattività ".
What do you guys think? I am interested in the R2005 and also in the Diablo WC which is mentioned. With the Diablo it's the same story. Someone says that by placing 3mm lifters under the heel and toe, this should increase sensitivity. What do you think? I modified the delta angle by placing a lifter under the toe of the binding and this reduced the delta angle to about 1mm (from 5 initially). If i am satisfied with the delta angle and the ramp and forward lean of my boot, should i forget about boot lifters? I always thought they are used to solve stance problems but if they also increase the sensitivity of the boot...
I searched some of Jeff Bergeron's threads and only found that he doesn't think they increase the performance, except for high speed carving.

I am curious what you guys think.

Thanks,
Jamie
post #2 of 97
they give you more leverage and a bit more boot-out clearance. they do not enhance snow feel. in fact, many are made out of nylon or similar materials which don't have nearly the sensitivity of the p-ethers and such that are being used in the boots themselves. we use lifters made with boot material so that snow feel is transformed more readily. although... boot and binding delta are huge in the performance department.
post #3 of 97
logruve_, do you have information on the bootboard ramp angle in the RTs? I have been looking at them with longing to replace my XTs, but I would really like to know both the bootboard ramp and forward lean specs for them...

And, I'd like to get hold of those lifters made of boot material, too!
post #4 of 97
What logruve said! He nailed it as usual!

If you are racing, be careful of the 45mm boot standheight limit for all atheletes. If not, stack away.

I have 58mm lugs on a pair of Atomic 10.5 boots from a few years go. Love the way they ski.

Also have 8mm risers on my current boots. Probably puts me up about 53mm.

There is one added benefit of all this stack height. It definetly makes me look slimmer in the lift line.

Mr. logruve sir, I have a brand new pair of 04/05 Race-Tech Softs, still in the box. Do you think it is worth selling them and getting the newer version of the boot?
post #5 of 97
Thread Starter 
Thank you for your answers. I am happy with the delta angle and i will stay away. I remember some boots have the max. height allowed of 45mm(dobermann, Diablo WC) etc

The Race Tec Soft i tried about two weeks ago and i can tell you it is stiff. I weight only 155lbs. But i have the feeling they are not your boots From what i know, the Race Tec is unchanged for the coming season.
post #6 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by sywsyw
Thank you for your answers. I am happy with the delta angle and i will stay away. I remember some boots have the max. height allowed of 45mm(dobermann, Diablo WC) etc

The Race Tec Soft i tried about two weeks ago and i can tell you it is stiff. I weight only 155lbs. But i have the feeling they are not your boots From what i know, the Race Tec is unchanged for the coming season.
Actually they are my boot! And yes they are beefy. But softer then my sons mediums which are like concrete!

The boot does have some changes for 05/06. I believe a less temp sensitive material in the shell and a different liner.

I weigh 187lbs. and am 6'0 and have fairly long tibias. The boot should be fine.

You can easily soften flex but it is very difficult to stiffen. I would rather err on the side of stiff!
post #7 of 97
AM, what's your observation of the bootboard ramp and forward lean? Seems very difficult to get real information. What size are the RTs that you have? It seems that bootboard ramp increases as boot size shrinks, since the distances from bootboard to ground stay the same for all sizes. (Same delta, shorter distance means steeper ramp.)
post #8 of 97
I have not spent any time on and little time in the boots yet. They need some serious mods & grinding and maybe lowereing the boot board to make them skiable for me.

I bought a 27. It is a very low volume boot and not much headroom for instep and somewhat limited overlap over the instep.

I would wear a 26.5 in the Atomic shelf boot or say a Salomon xwave 10. But my X2 Labs are 27 as is the Race Tech. I'll stuff my foot in 'em and give you a report on delta compared to X2 anyway.
post #9 of 97
Speaking from experience with the Lange RL (which is basically the same boot as the Rossi plug) the boots seem to be designed high enough without boot lifters, at least if you let the boot as it is and don´t grind the bootboard. After inserting the Formthotics footbed the height of mine is 43.5 mm. Afaik, lifters thinner than 3 mm are problematic.

The new boot might be different, though.

I don´t understand how the addition of some extra material to the boot sole could make it more "sensitive". Otoh, "reattivita" meaning better "reactivity" of the boot could make better sense.
(OMG, me translating from Italian into English for American skiers - that´s crazy...)
post #10 of 97
steve,
the forward lean is 12-14 degrees (austria says you can get 16 but i haven't been able to). ramp is 4-5.25 depending upon bootboard version and size. very observant by the way...ramp does increase in smaller sizes.
atomicman,
the boot is basically the same, they added some more elastomer to the ether (which is what gives the boot such great snow feel to begin with). an added benefit is that the boots are just a click softer at each flex level. other than that, a cool, fat, 45mm power strap and tweaked graphics. if you think you can find a buyer...go for the new one.
post #11 of 97
Thanks Mark!
post #12 of 97
logruve_, thanks a bunch! I've been trying to get the ramp flatter, and with my small feet (I'm in a 25,5 XT 17), it's really tough. I'm tall for my foot size, and that ramp puts me out over the front. I've got a 3mm gas pedal on the XTs, and that helps, but with the Atomics, I may have to go to 6mm or more!

It's interesting that they have multiple bootboards, too. What are the recommendations on bootboards?

I am hearing that the boots are narrow in the ankle/heel, but actually wider in the forefoot. That could be an issue for me, since I'm pretty narrow all over. Thoughts on that?

Thanks, again. It's really great having you so willing to participate on EpicSki!
post #13 of 97
steve,
the regular last (r/t Ti) has a lower volume heel than even the dobie. i wouldn't say the fore foot is wide but the boot was made to slightly more accomodating up front. everything is going back to more flexsion and articulation, being able to pressure with your big toe instead of being hobbled (even in a race fit). the boot can hold the foot correctly while still offering a more natural/athetic stance and fit. if you were able to ski in the XT, you can ski in our boot. the race tech cs is built to compete, quite frankly, with the dobie pro with a 101 mm last width and a liner thats lasted a bit wider as well. the cs is only more vloumous in the fore foot and the fit there is more akin to the lange (z shell) plug.
post #14 of 97
Thread Starter 
[quote=logruve_]steve,
the regular last (r/t Ti) has a lower volume heel than even the dobie. i wouldn't say the fore foot is wide but the boot was made to slightly more accomodating up front. QUOTE]

I recently tried on the Race Tec Soft (which is not soft) and yes, the ankle/heel area was low volume but, to my surprise, the forefoot was roomy. Now don't get me wrong, i think it is roomy compared to other plugs. The XT was definitely narrower in the forefoot, especially in the toebox. But this couldn't have been better news for people with slightly wider forefoot, because they will definitely require less work in this area. I have a preety narrow foot and this was my experience.
post #15 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by logruve_
steve,
the regular last (r/t Ti) has a lower volume heel than even the dobie. i wouldn't say the fore foot is wide but the boot was made to slightly more accomodating up front. everything is going back to more flexsion and articulation, being able to pressure with your big toe instead of being hobbled (even in a race fit). the boot can hold the foot correctly while still offering a more natural/athetic stance and fit. if you were able to ski in the XT, you can ski in our boot. the race tech cs is built to compete, quite frankly, with the dobie pro with a 101 mm last width and a liner thats lasted a bit wider as well. the cs is only more vloumous in the fore foot and the fit there is more akin to the lange (z shell) plug.
Thanks, again, Mark... I will be trying the RT provided I can find them early in the fall around here.

Can you help with the bootboard question? Is this an option, or does each model just have a particular bootboard (if I buy them, I'll likely be ordering them, if that matters).

Also, I was surprised to see all of the foam options on the web site for this high-end boot. With my XTs, the liner is so thin that I can't imagine trying to foam it. Do you know what the design thinking is around using foam in the RTs this year? And do the colors indicate different flex characteristics? Or just different colors? :

Tons of questions. Sorry. Capt. Analytic strikes again...
post #16 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Tons of questions. Sorry.
And lots of eager readers appreciating the answers.
post #17 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkracer
And lots of eager readers appreciating the answers.
Thanks, check!

BTW, are those new powerstraps Boosters?
post #18 of 97
Thread Starter 
IMO, the Race Tec has a very good liner. I noticed it is not a lace-up liner like the Nordica and Tecnica. In my opinion Nordica and Tecnica have better liners (the liner used in the Diablo is very similar to the Dobermann both are lace-up leather models) but the Atomic is not far off. I think the best thing would be to add a lace-up version for perfect wrapping of the foot (although the athletes probably have a different liner). This is the story with the Diablo WC. The athletes get an even thinner than the already thin liner that comes in the Diablo. I saw it myself.
post #19 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
l. I've got a 3mm gas pedal on the XTs, and that helps, but with the Atomics, I may have to go to 6mm or more!
How do you determine this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sywsyw
I think the best thing would be to add a lace-up version for perfect wrapping of the foot
Like the old Skinfoam ones with the double eyelets for the power strap or lacing all the way up?
post #20 of 97
which race tech soft did you try on? the Ti or the CS? the volume of the Ti is in between say...a dobie and a lange z mold. 99mm fore foot last. often when people feel the r/t is roomy it's because they are unfamiliar with the way the boot was designed to fit and ski. from the first met-head back it should (in the correct size of course) be tight fitting. the toe box is taller and roomier than most. this is to allow the fore foot to lay flat in there and allow some articulation of the big toe. everything is going back to more flexion and a more athletic fit. you'd be surprised at how much less racers at the elite level are being stuffed into super small boots. bode, for example has gone back to a 9 shell. i worked closely with the person responsible for the design of the race tech (incidently, he was a 10 year world cup serviceman for lange and designed the diablo as well) and he said 5 years ago we'd be seeing plug boots that would accomodate a race fit while still affording more fore foot room. i'd say he was right by the looks of all the boots today.
ssh,
the boot boards come in two variations, a 25mm (thank god because i'm sick of grinding them) to accomodate 5mm boot lifters. and the 30mm version.
they both have the same toe height and thus the different ramp. i can help you out with whatever you'll need. in regards to foam, we brought them in because they were available. they are still very popular in europe with rec skiers. they liner by the way, is very nice. it is the liner out of the racing department. it does have laces but they are there only to ensure closure and purchase during foaming and should be cut out after the procedure.
they make whatever liner the athletes want to use...the boot that had twice as many world cup points as the next closest competitor (lange), doesn't have a lace up liner
post #21 of 97
Thread Starter 
I tried on the Race Tec Soft (last year's model). It was not this year's Ti or CS.The ankle/heel hold was impressive and it does compare to the Diablo WC but the forefoot was roomy for a plug. there is nothing wrong in admitting it has a rather roomy forefoot for a plug, is it? In my opinion it is better for some people and bad for others. This will definitely help people with a slightly wider forefoot. But the ankle/heel hold is fantastic!

Are you reffering to the ramp or the heel height? (25mm and 30mm) I suspect it's the ramp but i want to be sure.
I have a question for you Logruve: do you know the measurements for the bootboard of a size 25 RT? I would be glad if you could find out and tell me (us). I would like to calculate the ramp angle. 25MP is my size in the Atomic. Just tell me the numbers and i can calculate. Toe height, heel height and length are all i need. I just want to compare the ramp with the Diablo (same size).Thank you.
The lace-up liner was just an idea. Lange doesn't have it. The only downside would be that it is really harder to put on the liner and then slide it into the boot.
post #22 of 97
Hey logruve_ ,

Thanks for all the info. I bought a pair of RaceTecs in April. I haven't skied them yet. What's your take on getting these babies dialed in? I'll start with new footbeds, then grind the obvious pressure points. At that point they'll be skiable, though probably not very comfortable. Aside from fine-tuning the fit via grinding/punching the shell, how should I address forward lean, ramp angle, cuff adjustment, canting, etc. Do you guys work through a specific process?
post #23 of 97
Thread Starter 
Like the old Skinfoam ones with the double eyelets for the power strap or lacing all the way up?[/quote]

I am not familiar with older Atomic liners, sorry.
If you saw the Dobermann liner then you know what i mean. IMO the Dobermann liner (lace-up leather version) and the Diablo liner (lace-up leather version) are probably the best liners right now. But as i said, the Atomic is not far off. And the foam liner looks interesting. I just hope you can foam in the forefoot area, not just in the ankle/heel. But considering how tight the Race Tec is in the heel/area, this will probably be more popular with the CS.
post #24 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by logruve
ssh,
the boot boards come in two variations, a 25mm (thank god because i'm sick of grinding them) to accomodate 5mm boot lifters. and the 30mm version.
they both have the same toe height and thus the different ramp. i can help you out with whatever you'll need.
Thanks, Mark. Do you know that toe height? If I know that, I'll know what lifters to order, and I'll be ready to go (provided the boot fits, that is. My, I always get ahead of myself when it comes to gear!).
post #25 of 97
logruve,

how do I get the lower boot boards? Call Miss Jeanne?

CW
post #26 of 97
we ordered extra boot boards and they are not in yet. will slide you some when they come.
syw-
i didn't take offense to your comments, i agree completely! that's the beauty, there's a boot out there for everyone.
ssh/sys,
will have those numbers for you in the a.m.
later
post #27 of 97
Right on!
post #28 of 97
Hey Logruve
Im just wonderin how much stacking can you put on the atomic rt. You see pics of bodes boots and they seem like they have more then 5mm stacking. It it fis legal that much stacking.
post #29 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by esky
Hey Logruve
Im just wonderin how much stacking can you put on the atomic rt. You see pics of bodes boots and they seem like they have more then 5mm stacking. It it fis legal that much stacking.
I believe they lower Bbode's foot inside the boot by grinding the boot board or using a very low bootboard to allow more sole stack height to keep him from booting out.

Since the FIS measurement is from the contact point on your footbed at the heel slightly compressed (logruve can give you the exact newtons of pressure, since Atomic built the measuring device) to the bottom of the boot, If you take a 45mm boot including your footbed, lower your foot 8mm inside the boot, you can build up the sole by 8mm and end up at a FIS measurable 45mm.

logruve, is this correct?

AM
post #30 of 97
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by logruve
syw-
i didn't take offense to your comments, i agree completely! that's the beauty, there's a boot out there for everyone.
ssh/sys,
will have those numbers for you in the a.m.
later
Logruve,

It was not my intention to offend you or anyone. What i said about the Race Tec was based on my experience and i am happy you agree with me. In fact by admitting the boot has a slightly wider forefoot, you encourage more people to try it on!

I can't wait to compare the ramp in the 25 Race Tec to the 25 Diablo plug. They are both on my list and i am curious to know how many mm i will have to shave off
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