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Saddam's torturers alive and well!

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
Norway has granted "asylum" to Baath party members who have admitted to being members of Saddam's torture squads.

The reason .... they now fear "persecution" and under the law, qualify for sanctuary.

Why or what do I not quite understand?

My grasp on reality seems so distorted that I'm starting to question my own sanity and fundamental reasoning processes.
post #2 of 23
I'm getting a little confused myself, Yuki.

DangerousBrian just got done expaining to me that all these stories of torture by Saddam were just a Bush admisnistration fabrication intended to create support for his oil war. But now I hear this. Oh dear, my head is just spinning. Who are these guys who didn't really exist, and why are they fleeing? What are they afraid of? Did the Iraqis believe Bush's stories too? That would be a first. Has Norway been listening to Brian?

How do I make sense of all this??? :
post #3 of 23
It doesn't really surprise me to hear stuff like this. Many countries, while understanding why the US is in Iraq, dissagree with the methods and actions taken by the US Armed Forces.

My question would be, if there ever is a war crimes/human rights violation trial (International Court) can they be charged or would Norway still go out of their way to protect them?
post #4 of 23
Thread Starter 

aftenposten

I get all of my Norsk "trivia" from a Norwegan news site ... Aftenposten.

You realize how nutty their politics are when you follow it.
post #5 of 23
Don't tell Slobodan Milosovich.
post #6 of 23
If there is a properly convened international court, or even an Iraqi one, I'm sure the Norwegians will comply with any extradition orders. My guess is, since Iraq was invaded, these Ba'ath people can claim asylum from an (illegal) invading power.
post #7 of 23

.....

The amount of flowery optimism and belief in George "kegboy" Bush's intent for the population of Iraq's future well being.. just ceases to amaze me....
...and don't worry, the media will spin everything into a victory...(whatever that means ).
If it weren't for the young guys & women doing their duty for these bunch of brainless clowns, it would be laughable... :
post #8 of 23
After seeing the atrocities (including murder) our country has committed against prisoners in Gitmo and in Iraqi prisons I'm not surprised Norway is granting asylum. We can no longer pretend to be high and mighty until those responsible are brought to justice. I'm sure Norway would turn them over to a court sanctioned by the World Court but not to the farce our tribunals have become.
post #9 of 23
Thread Starter 

gitmo

Murders? Torture? What the flock do you expect them to say? "The Americans have treated me with relative fairness, all things considered."

How many bombs have to go off in Montana before you wake up?

No, I'm not a Bush supporter ... I loathe the a-hole; Kerry too but for far different reasons.

Next time keep the issues separate ... Gitmo is in Cuba .... Iraq is in _____ .. fill in the blanks. Are the folks doing time for the crime in Iraq?
post #10 of 23
Yuki -

You shouldn't be getting mad at me or Norway. You should be getting mad at Bush and his cronies for getting the world to see us at the same level as the Iraqi thugs you're so upset about.
post #11 of 23
Thread Starter 

rio

Just walk up to a bar in Kurdish village, order up a cold one and use that as a "conversation starter".

Aside from the politics of Bush and the validity of the war, granting assylum to any thugs and villians of said ilk, turns my stomach.

Don't use anti Bush sentiment to get in the way of common sense .... I tend to try to focus on the basic merits of an individual issue. Period!

Please note my comment on loathing that ..... don't get me started on Bush.
post #12 of 23
Shouldn't they all be up for trial? Not just the torturers but the people from above who gave the orders? (on Both sides). Saddams up in front of the beak, so who steps up to the plate from the US side for giving the orders in Gitmo?
post #13 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki
Gitmo is in Cuba .... Iraq is in _____ .. fill in the blanks. Are the folks doing time for the crime in Iraq?
I don't think so.
Can you tell me what the folks are doing time for in Cuba?
post #14 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat
I don't think so.
Can you tell me what the folks are doing time for in Cuba?
Hating our freedom::
post #15 of 23
Yuki -

I have just finished reading a few articles on this. The Iraqis granted asylum admitted to the Norwegian officials that they tortured Iraqi citizens. None have been implicated in the atrocities against the Kurds or any other killings. Norway grants asylum to political refugees if they will be subjected to torture if they are returned, even those that used torture themselves. The asylum is only temporary and will be removed if Norway comes to the conclusion that the Iraqis will not be subjected to torture.

It is sad that the world has concluded that turning people over to US authorities will subject them to torture. Nobody should be mad at Norway. They should be mad at our government for destroying our reputation. Have you read any of the excerpts from the official Army report on the killing of an Iraqi general in our prisons? Its unreal. The things they did to him before they killed him are things you would ascribe to the Nazis or Soviet Gulags. I have a hard time dealing with the fact that Americans thought they could do those things. It is even more unbelievable that the people who have set the policies that lead to the tortures have been promoted and given medals.
post #16 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki
Norway has granted "asylum" to Baath party members who have admitted to being members of Saddam's torture squads.

The reason .... they now fear "persecution" and under the law, qualify for sanctuary.

Why or what do I not quite understand?

My grasp on reality seems so distorted that I'm starting to question my own sanity and fundamental reasoning processes.
innocent until proven guilty, perhaps?

sounds to me like the cornerstone of an ethical justice system.

or would you prefer hanging first, assessment of guilt thereafter?
post #17 of 23
Thread Starter 
If they are in Norway, how will they be proven "innocent"?

Following your logic, the Nazi "exodus" to South America was a reasonable alternative. Heck, those silly Waffen SS might have been "persecuted" even killed by Poles, French and other "mobs" bent on revenge.

They were held in detention and convicted weren't they? Nurnberg and the succession of trials that are still occasionally forwarded for prosecution?
post #18 of 23
Yuki,

I wonder sometimes where I will go when my anti-Bush screeds land me in court under the Patriot Act.

just because the American system is somewhat objective and truth-seeking it doesn't mean the Iraqi justice system is the same. what if they were victims of a frame-up propagated by other Iraqis who did not like them? definitely I'm NOT saying that is the case, but I'm wondering aloud whether it's possible.

now,

if they were indeed convicted and sentenced by an impartial Iraqi tribunal, I do share your concern about asylum in other Nations.
post #19 of 23
Thread Starter 

jury?

All things in law are conceptual ideals, often not possible in a real world. The notion of an "impartial" jury is just that, a conceptual framework to strive for but in essence, impossible.

Mind and sentiment often work in abstract ways. As a
VVAW type, I was shocked to realize that I had "forgiven" Rusty Calley. Came out of the blue one day. Had I been in his shoes, I may have lost it too, in a fit of frustration and rage. At the onset, my comments were more about "shooting the bastard who gave me an unlawful order" (Calley).

If I had been seated under the UCMJ, the 1970 "me" would have locked him away and tossed the key. The 1985 "me" would have let him walk, just another sad sack of shi_, in a sad fookin place at the wrong time.

Heck two of the Moonwalkers jurers just said they wanted to convict him but were pressured and threatened by the foreman.
post #20 of 23

Enough!

I thought this forum was about skiing. Did I miss something in all these political threads? Were the Norwegians giving these Iraquis ski lessons? Until Al Qaeda starts blowing up ski areas, can we leave political commentary to other forums, please?
post #21 of 23
Normally this stuff is discussed in the Supporters Lounge.
post #22 of 23
Thread Starter 

supporters and community

Generally true, but even you Fox, post here commonly on current international and political issues ... London Bombings and IRA were in the last week or so?

The lounge has limited range and I guess this opens it up to the "community" at large.
post #23 of 23
I posted the London Bombings post, because I have friends here who would be concerned about me. It then TURNED political/religious.
I postted the IRA statement, and it should probably have gone in the supporters lounge.

I don't believe that two posts in the last month count as "commonly" or "in the last week"
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