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Detuning short Slalom Skis - How will this change their behaviour?

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
I had the chance to demo a pair of Atomic ST11's the other day and was very impressed with them but the only thing that struck me about them was that they had the tips of the skis detuned from tip to a few centimetres into the running length.
If I get a pair of these I was wondering how will they behave if the tips are left sharp?
I've always wanted to keep my tips sharp on carvers so was a bit puzzled why this had been done.
Does the shop know something I don't?

Cheers,

RR
post #2 of 21
They will hook up into the turn faster, with a lot more power. Often most normal skiers hate it when a ski "hooks" on them, so as a result I have seen higher end carving skis on demo that have the tips and tails detuned. I have also seen it on race stock SL skis a few times, so that the turn shape can be adjusted and the racer can bail out of the carve if they get late. You really dont use that part of the edge to generate edgehold (in comparison to the edge underfoot) so its not a crisis for it to be detuned. I would try them tuned all the way though. I don't detune any of my skis, and most will tell you not to detune any part of a modern short turn carving ski. If you decide to detune after skiing on the skis only detune with a diamond or gummi stone - DO NOT let the shop detune the tip or tail with ANY of their machines... your skis will hate you... forever.
Later
GREG
post #3 of 21
Does the ski shop know something you don't? Sort of.

It seems that many people prefer to buy the latest and greatest ski gear and don't want to carve turns with them, but want to skid or maybe scarve turns instead. They become upset when the ski's edge forces them to go in the direction dictated by the skier's input, Instead of being "steered" out of that path by sufficient rotary action. These are the people who buy a sports car and put commuter tires on it; they buy a GSXR750 and complain that the steering is too sharp, and think their Harley handles better. The ski shop knows a lot of these people.

Sharpen those edges all the way and the ski will do what it's told to when it's told to.
post #4 of 21
There are skiers who like and can use the edges sharp the whole length and there are those who are better off with some detuning.
The former mostly or often know why the edges of demo skis get detuned and can accept it. (I know that I can´t have skis tuned the way I do mine on some public demo occasions or when renting.)
The latter would be unhappy on skis without detuning.
The shops simply want to satisfy the majority of their customers.
There are also shops which simply detune everything because "that´s the way it has always been done".
post #5 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
These are the people who buy a sports car and put commuter tires on it; they buy a GSXR750 and complain that the steering is too sharp, and think their Harley handles better. The ski shop knows a lot of these people.
they're they ones who want a sports car, but want it in an automatic with air conditioning and back seats.

Detuned skis feel vague to me, but most tuners will do it unless you expressly tell them not to. They probably cop more grief from fully sharp skis than if they just detune everything.
post #6 of 21
Thread Starter 
Thanks guys SOunds like i'll have to be careful the first time I ski them sharp till I get used to them.
I remember when I got my Metron M9's, they came to me detuned and I found them a bit vague for initiating turns the tip and rip method. It wasn't till i filed the edges back that the skis became a lot more fun.

I did notice that the ST11's were a lot more fun than my M9's. Especially when getting a bit giddy with popping my turns the rebound was great for getting aiborne. This never appeared to happen with my M9's.

I'm wondering if I should be looking at any other ski's? I have the chance to demo the Dynamique VR27 and possibly the Atomic SL9m.
Would these ski's be too much ski for me? Bearing in mind i'm 5'11, 140lbs, aspiring intermediate who has been told by others that I have pretty good carving technique.

My friend has a pair of Metron B5's in a 162, and after comparing the ST11's to them for weight and flex reckons theres not much difference between the two! I would have guessed the B5's would be too much for me from what i've read, but after skiing the ST11's and comparing the two i'm not so sure now.
post #7 of 21
RR:
Don´t forget that the SL:11 from 04/05 on are NOT the race slalom skis but a different ski designed for other demands and skiers than the racestock skis.

I don´t think that either Dynamic VR27 or SL:9 should be "too much". They are both "recreational slaloms" targeted at a fairly broad range of good skiers.

As usual, demoing is better than any posts (sorry, all posters! I hope you know what I mean), the combination of both inputs is best.
post #8 of 21
Wear dark glasses when you demo the Dynamics.... they are BLOODY ugly.
post #9 of 21
I'll sell you some dynamics
post #10 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier
DO NOT let the shop detune the tip or tail with ANY of their machines... your skis will hate you... forever.
Later
GREG
Once detuned, always detuned? Or can the shop simply re-sharpen fully from tip to tail? If so, do they need to use a machine, or should I ask that they hand-file?

The problem is I did let the shop detune new skis when I brought them in for a hot wax after the first couple days out -- they insisted "that's the way we've always done it." This was on a pair of mid fats (fischer big stix 7.6) -- and they did not engage turns as quickly after the detuning. I've adjusted obviously but would go back to un-detuned (tuned?) edge for next season. (Same story on my slaloms as well which I picked up used and already detuned).
post #11 of 21
Thread Starter 
Thanks guys My skis will always love me, I will never let them be detuned except my B2's because they deserve it

I had a look at the VR27's and after comparing them to the ST11's I don't think they would be as robust. They will be getting ridden every day this coming winter barring powder days so will be getting a lot of hammer. I would hate to try and save money only to find the things fall to bits on me
Maybe i'm being too hard on the VR27's? I just assume that being a cheaper ski may show itself later down the ownership road. One day lost to sorting out skis would be unbearable.
I've not commited yet so you guys can always try and talk me into/out of it.

Cheers,

RR
post #12 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by ts01
Once detuned, always detuned? Or can the shop simply re-sharpen fully from tip to tail? If so, do they need to use a machine, or should I ask that they hand-file?
Well, it depends on how big the detuning is, i.e. how round the edge is.
I have re-sharpened quite a few skis by hand and it´s not a pleasant job. I think machine-sharpening would be better. If a lot of strokes with the file are necessary there is the problem of excessive heat building which is undesirable both for the edge and for the file. (If you have to, start with a coarse file or pansar, do not use up a good fine file.)
It´s always good to make sure no detuning is done by the machine. The "that's the way we've always done it"-shops should be avoided if they insist on the operation.
post #13 of 21
Thanks checkracer (and sorry RR for slight hijack of the thread).
post #14 of 21
Thread Starter 
ts01, No worries mate. Its good info to know.
post #15 of 21
rockyrobin, b5,b5,b5,b5,b5,b5,b5,b5,b5,b5,b5,b5,b5,b5,b5,b5,b5 ,b5,b5

BTW, I tried the EB's demo M11's today - my b5's are waaaaay better. You need to try 'em. Glide & Slide have some demo B5's so why not bring a pair of 152's next week?
post #16 of 21
Thread Starter 
spyderjon, ST11, ST11, ST11, ST11, ST11, ST11, ST11, ST11 :P

Too late mate. Those ST11's made such a big impression on me i've ordered a pair!
Hmmm, I could always punt my M9's and B2's on and............

I'll have a word next time I go in and see if they be willing to let me have a play with some.
post #17 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by ts01
Once detuned, always detuned? Or can the shop simply re-sharpen fully from tip to tail? If so, do they need to use a machine, or should I ask that they hand-file?
Essentially - what checkracer said. If the machine is used to detune a ski, it will require that too much edge is removed to ever sharpen it again. It will also be impossible to tune the tip and tail by hand (at the correct bevels at least). If i were you i would have the shop do a normal tune (no detune) and then buy yourself a gummi stone and do it yourself if you truly want a detuned tip and tail. Your skis should be okay unless you see large machine made gashes at the tip of your skis... then youre screwed. On a midfat I wouldnt worry about it since they arent always carving anyways... but on a race slalom - if it were my skis the techie at the shop would have bought a pair of skis that cost more than what he made that week.

Later

GREG
post #18 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier
If the machine is used to detune a ski, it will require that too much edge is removed to ever sharpen it again. It will also be impossible to tune the tip and tail by hand (at the correct bevels at least)...
That´s exactly what I started to add in my previous post but deleted it then before posting not wanting to go into so much detail...
Yes, that´s exactly my experience. It might be difficult then to use the 87-degree bevel at the tip because the sidewall and the upper titanal will be in way and they have to be slanted/removed brutally, either with an old coarse file or with the machine.
post #19 of 21
Thanks for the additional info. Sounds kind of tricky and I honestly don't know if the detuning on the midfats was done by hand or with a machine. I'd guess a machine though because the shop was in the base lodge at a big resort and they probably did the fastest, easiest job they could.

With the slaloms, I just ski for fun, not a racer, and I got these cheap on eBay so no real complaints. It's just frustrating to have a good piece of equipment that someone screws up because "that's how we've always done it." I never even skied on straight skis, so why are they tuning my shaped skis as if they were straight?!?!?
post #20 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by ts01
It's just frustrating to have a good piece of equipment that someone screws up because "that's how we've always done it." I never even skied on straight skis, so why are they tuning my shaped skis as if they were straight?!?!?
I understand yours is a rhetoric question.
A fully justified one.
The answer my friend is not blowing in the wind but to be found in the posts here.
post #21 of 21
Thread Starter 
I feel really bad now. There I was blaming the shops for detuning the skis. Today I picked up a pair of Metron B5's to demo.
They were fresh from the shrinkwrap as sent from Atomic. I watched the bindings being put on so no chance the shop did it while I was not looking and upon inspecting the tips they were indeed detuned. So it looks like atomic is the guilty party :lol:
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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › Detuning short Slalom Skis - How will this change their behaviour?