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Self-tunning and p-tex

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 
I was just wondering if anybody has some advice on tunning bump skiis, for example what types of bevels should i consider, should i de-tune the tips, etc. Also, i was wondering if anybody has any tips for applying p-tex to the nicks and guoges (sp?) on the bases.
p.s. I am looking for a tune to help with zipperline bump skiing, not for carving or sideslipping through the bumps.

Thanks, Pow Ripper
post #2 of 12
Never tuned skis particularly for bumps and I'm sure there are many people here that would have better advice. But from what I have done tunning wise I would say 1 deg base and 3ish deg side depending on the ski, the level of competition you're in, the slope on the day and the quality of the snow.

As for p-tex...is it a core shot or just a gouge? Is it adjacent to the edge? How large is it? General p-tex candles are made of a different composition than what you would use to repair a core shot. Base material is of a higher molecular weight than p-tex that you use for the quick repair stuff.

You can also get p-tex that you can cut and iron in. If it's a big core shot you need to use a stanley knife (utility?) to cut out an even square then cut out a matching piece from some high density p-tex to fit. But make sure that when you cut it out of the base you hold the knife on the opposing edge that you cut out the p-tex on so the angles line up. Keeping opposing angles with the knife will minimise the glue line and therefore maximise the bonding process. Also it look nicer!

For a deep core shot near an edge you will also need some epoxy because the plastics won't bond with the metals. I don't know a lot about different epoxy's so if there is anyone that would like to add to that I would love to hear.

If it's a shallow gouge that has friction burns as well you should iron it first beacuase the heat will have changed the molecular structure of the edges of the gouge. So ironing it will melt it back and allow for a stronger bind between the new material and the old.

If it is fairly deep (but not a core shot) melt some in then let it set, wait a bit (depending on the room temp - are you working outside or in) then fill it a bit more. This way when you use the pansar file to take the top off and more especially when you start to scrap it, you won't cause stress fractures through the new material.

Then run the iron over it again before you wax.

Anyway, I'm sure there are probably heaps of bumps people here with more specific advice.

Hope this helps a bit.

[ October 06, 2003, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Bec ]
post #3 of 12
Also with detuning the tips, depends on the ski but the de-tune area has been getting smaller with the change of sidecut. Never de-tune beyond where you initate the turn from which on new skis and especially in bumps is not much. Maybe use a rubber stone at the curve. And also a ceramic polishing stone will give you a much smoother tune and decrease stress on the edges so the micro-burrs from the file on the edge surface don't break of and create small inperfections. Also increases the life of the edges.

[ October 06, 2003, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Bec ]
post #4 of 12
Thread Starter 
I think I may have gotten in a little over my head here, I am really a newby when it comes to tunning and repairing bases. While I understand what you are saying about the tunning, the p-tex stuff has me a little lost. Bec, while your posts are informative and well written, when it comes to technical stuff I really need some sort of visual aid to help me learn. Perhaps somone knows of an online guide to tunning with pictures and diagrams? If not, perhaps a recomendation of a book I could order? I was under the assumption that all i had to do was melt the p-tex into the hole, let it dry, and then maybe sand it down a litle with some fine grade sand paper. I had no idea there was different density stuff for different types of damage. Perhaps I should have asked "What tools do I need and where do I aquire the knowhow to tune and repair my skiis?" I am actually pretty good this sort of thing, I just learn it a little better when I have some visual aids along the way.
post #5 of 12
> ...when it comes to technical stuff I really need some sort of visual aid to help me learn. Perhaps
> somone knows of an online guide to tunning with pictures and diagrams? If not, perhaps
> a recomendation of a book I could order?

a) On line: www.tognar.com - go to their "tips" section.

b) Printed materials: Order a copy of their catalog. Its amazingly informative.

c) Full book on the subject: "The Ski Maintenance and Repair Handbook" by Seth Masia. I think a new edition is coming out.

Tom / PM

[ October 08, 2003, 02:37 AM: Message edited by: PhysicsMan ]
post #6 of 12
I removed the posting myself. - Jørn

[ October 08, 2003, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Jørn ]
post #7 of 12
[quote]Originally posted by Jørn:
[QB]If you have a gouge you want to repair that is not deep enough for a patch and you do not think a p-tex candle or iron-on patch alone will work well (and you do not have easy access to a base welder), you can use a soldering gun with a wide, flat brazing tip. You need to grind-up the p-tex with a pencil sharpener or something.

There a few troubles with the above text. To start with grinding up p-tex does nothing to change it's molecular weight or structure. Using a soldering iron is great if you are trying to make a circuit board but not that cool if you are working with skis. We are talking about fine lines of temp. Unless I'm severley wrong the amount of heat generated by a soldering iron is usually far to high for ski bases.
post #8 of 12
Please disregard my previous posting on this subject. It is a difficult, tenuous repair technique that probably should not be attempted. It would have been better if I had not mentioned it here.

I know that a soldering iron generates a lot of heat. This is a soldering gun with a flat brazing tip on it. If you read the posting you would know, or maybe I should have stated better, that it is a special technique for repairing a ski base that is very hard and dense, like a racing stock ski. I said do not get the area too hot, just enough to blend.

A p-tex candle will not really adhere well to a true racing stock ski base at all if you light it on fire and drip the p-tex on it. I did not say that grinding up p-tex changes its molecular weight, just that you should use a similar series of p-tex to the base material.

This is really a special technique when you do not want to cut-up the base to install a patch. The skis are usually hot when they are first produced. If the ski becomes too hot later on in its life, it tends to delaminate; however, this is very localized heat applied over a brief period of time. It has worked excellently for me. I do not recommend people try this in general, so I am removing my original posting. I had stated not to attempt the repair in this way if you had any doubts about the method since it could damage the ski.

[ October 08, 2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Jørn ]
post #9 of 12
Cool Jorn.

Pow Digger, the two best books I have come across are the Swix Tech manual and a book called "Waxing & Care of Skis and Snowboards" by Brady and Torgesen. "From Tip to Tail" by Rader and Boyd is OK and quite a bit simpler than the first two, but I like the depth of discussion that Brady & Torgesen go into. As PM mentioned the Tongar site is also good.

As for your p-tex problem, can you tell us how deep and where the gouge actually is.

For most things a candle will do fine. I've never used sandpaper but I believe it works well. I usually file off the top with a panser file (big teeth) then scrap it with the metal scraper. If it's a big problem though you should get someone to fix it who has experience, just ask if you can watch. Nothing beats someone actually showing you what to do and most tech's are more than happy to show you their skills.

[ October 08, 2003, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Bec ]
post #10 of 12
PM, havn't seen the book you mentioned. What kind of detail does it go into?
post #11 of 12
My copy is packed away in some box somewhere, so I am working from memory. Seth's book is around 100 pages long and reads well. The first edition came out in the early 80's and a 2nd edition came out around 1990. In some circles, it was considered the "bible", but base repairs and tuning is neither rocket science nor black magic (at sub-WC levels of waxing/tuning), so I doubt it has information significantly different from what is probably found in the other books that were also mentioned. I seem to recall hearing that he is working on a new edition. You can get more info and contact him at www.masia.org/books.htm .

You can get other reviews of it by searching Google-groups for Seth Masia related posts in the rec.skiing.* groups:

http://www.google.com/groups?as_q=ski%20repair&as_oq=seth%20masia&safe=i mages&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_ugroup=rec.skiing.*&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100& hl=en

(Since these are posted on the wild west of the internet, USENET, be sure to ignore the one well-known crazy who rants, raves, and intentionally slanders any person who lets their real name be known.)

Tom / PM

[ October 08, 2003, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: PhysicsMan ]
post #12 of 12
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all the info, ill have to buy one of those books, and the website mentioned above wasn't bad either.

As far as my p-tex problems, the guoges are nothing major. Mostly just small imperfections from a season of skiing since the last base grind. I do have one medium depth shot that exposes the inside edge and i would like to repair this, however from what was said here and what i read elsewhere it looks like i dont have the proper p-tex to do this. Ill have to get ahold of a bunch more stuff if i really want to get seriuos about it.
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