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To pole or not to pole

post #1 of 123
Thread Starter 
Had a really nice experience teaching a young couple students last season. They called me up and said they were one-time Heavenly group lesson skiers and they didn't really learn anything, and they wanted to learn skiing. Determined as they were, they showed up with brand new skiing outfits, clothes, boots, skis, even to the new detachable wrist strap for their fancy poles. Yeah right, I thought.

I gave them four lessons (2 each week): 1) to ride the chair lifts, 2) snowplow--wedge turn, 3) christie turn, 4) parallel turn.

In the first lesson, I needed to know how much they did know, so I asked them to show me how to stop, they barely made it. For too much work to walk up the hill to practice that, I suggested we rode the chair up, the lady wouldn't want to go because she has never ridden one. I persuaded and took them up, they both fell on unload. Nevertheless, I showed them how to control the speed and how to stop and a little bit of turns, and they learned how to ski down the bunny hill. For the first day, they were happy that they can actually ski, so they scheduled a lesson the next day.

The second day they showed up dragging, because the fatigues accumulated the day before. I took them to "higher" lift for I thought that a longer run may give them better chance to pick up the rhythms of skiing. But the idea of "higher" spooked the lady, she frozen on the unload; I was holding her arm and thinking about supporting her as she get out the chair, but she didn't get out the chair, and the chair wrenched my wrist, yike.

Anyway, they learned wedge turn and snowplow skiing that day. They were happy and wanted other lesson, I told they to go practice some more first.

A week later, they called me up wanted to go for the "blue" runs. When I checked them out, they can snowplow quite fluently on the greens but still catch the edge on the inside ski quite a bit. I didn't take them to the blues but showed them the christie turn instead. They learned christie turn that day, and scheduled the fourth lesson the next day.

In the fourth lesson I was going to teach them parallel turn, so I showed them how to use poles to support their christie turn first. They couldn't catch up the timing and did poorly in coordination. So I asked them to give up the poles. The lady tried first and found it easier so she persuaded her boyfriend to do the same. And at the end of the lesson they both did parallel turn without using poles, though the man still carrying the poles for his security crutch. I took them to the top of the mountain and they came down on a blue run like a seasoned skier.

Come to think about it, in four lessons/days of skiing, they have learned/accomplished more than what I did in four years on my own. To pole or not to pole, is now the question.


IS
post #2 of 123
This was discussed here in detail a little while back.
post #3 of 123
This may or not apply to adults, and I am not an instructor, but..

I didn't let my daughter use poles until her third year skiing. I felt that it was more important for her to learn the right rhythms before she complicated that with poles. However, the second year she skied, I spent time on the chair pointing out which skiers were using poles correctly and which ones weren't, so by the time I felt she was ready, she already had an idea of how to use them. FYI, she would have been five when I let her have poles and by then she might have had almost 40 days in. I think that even though they are adults that they need a few more days in before you add the poles.

I didn't use poles the first year or so when I skied with my daughter and I feel it was quite good for my skiing. I still occasionally find myself dragging a pole as a brake. However, my daughter's race team did an exercise I saw where they KEPT poles on the snow surface, or tried to, as some kind of training about their shoulders. Naturally, you wouldn't race like that!!

I was surprised you were still teaching what I think of as snowplow turns. I thought that was stopped years and years ago. It's such a tough habit to break. And with shaped skis, why bother? Once again, I'm not an instructor.
post #4 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky
I was surprised you were still teaching what I think of as snowplow turns. I thought that was stopped years and years ago. It's such a tough habit to break. And with shaped skis, why bother? Once again, I'm not an instructor.
Depends on the ski school. Some schools (like the one where I teach) still teach a wedge progression due to steepness of terrain. Like not enough true beginner terrain.
post #5 of 123
I learned to ski with poles, and like em, but will say "Bend the lesson to the student, not the other way around. If the poles are getting in the way get rid of them." It sounds like those students had enough to worry about without complicating it with the poles. For others, using poles is a good way to get the rythm in the back door.
post #6 of 123
Adding poles as a balancing aid has some merit but it is my experience that the pole lesson happens much later. Somewhere around level 5. Before that they are mostly used as a way to push ourselves across the snow, or to momentarily lean on if we lose our balance. Taking them away happens a lot but sometimes it is a security blanket issue, so be careful. I had one student that used her poles to create turns (by pushing with the outside pole). Taking her poles away caused her way too much anxiety, so I replaced them with my hands. When she tried to pull or push with her hands, I would softly move my hands which resulted in no turning. To mentally distract her, I used the old "say turn" as a turn trigger which backfired a little. When her skis were actually turning she would shout repeatedly "I'm turning" very proudly. However, when they didn't she would shout even louder " I'm not turning". After a while the whole beginner corral was getting in the act in a fun supportive way. Which actually helped because it became a huge support group. After a while and a lot of coaching she started using her legs to create turns (a delayed epiphany). But during that transition she needed a little crutch. Without it she would have quit, instead she came back for a couple more all day lessons. I guess this story is a long winded way to say, taking something away without replacing it with something else does more harm than good.
post #7 of 123
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky
I was surprised you were still teaching what I think of as snowplow turns. I thought that was stopped years and years ago. It's such a tough habit to break. And with shaped skis, why bother? Once again, I'm not an instructor.


Yes, I take the wedge turn/snowplow skiing as the "very" fundamental/foundation of downhill skiing, so that's the first thing I teach to the beginners. And most of time I don't teach my [adult] students new thing until they can do solid snowplow turn.

Some may claim that they learn how to skiing begin with parallel skiing, and that "seems" to be very cool; however, parallel skiing is a high level technique, as it is efficient, it is fast, without a good foundation [to slowdown], if a beginner rushes into it, it's only courting a disaster.

As for the "all terrains" capability goes, a good knowledge on how the wedge works is indispensable, as the wedge stance and wedge turn maybe the only techniques to get one out of a tight spot such as in the high sierra boulders and glades. It's a life saver.

Snowplow skiing may be a less efficient skiing than parallel skiing, however, I don't consider it as "bad" habit. A "bad" habit of skiing is dragging the ski poles, or pole randomly here and there, which are how majority skiers ski on the slope.


IS
post #8 of 123
Quote:
And at the end of the lesson they both did parallel turn without using poles, though the man still carrying the poles for his security crutch. I took them to the top of the mountain and they came down on a blue run like a seasoned skier.
In 4 lessons over a week, they went from never having been on a lift, and not being able to get off one on day 2, to skiing blues like a seasoned skier.:
post #9 of 123
Deja vu all over again. Not in a good way.
post #10 of 123
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
I learned to ski with poles, and like em, but will say "Bend the lesson to the student, not the other way around. If the poles are getting in the way get rid of them." It sounds like those students had enough to worry about without complicating it with the poles. For others, using poles is a good way to get the rythm in the back door.


Ski without poles is different from ski with poles but not using them, as without poles it not just frees your hands but frees your ski form as well, as you no longer "have to" follow the skiing sequence that is depicted by the pole-plant. Some people ski without poles resort the "phantom poling" (i.e. go through the poling motion without the poles) to maintain their forms; however, from the truer sense of no pole skiing, they still carrying poles, even only mentally. In flatboarding, there's no such "pole" existed; free hands, free form, and free skiing, ski without poles is a different skiing from poled skiing, two different sensations and two skiing.


IS
post #11 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
I learned to ski with poles, and like em, but will say "Bend the lesson to the student, not the other way around. If the poles are getting in the way get rid of them." It sounds like those students had enough to worry about without complicating it with the poles. For others, using poles is a good way to get the rythm in the back door.
YES..

This is where the better instructor/coaches will rise to the top.

If the student needs poles let them. If they need to learn a wedge before moving on, teach them. If they are able to go right to parallel, that's great too. Teach the student not a system. You will have happier skiers and return customers.

DC
post #12 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichiskiing
Yes, I take the wedge turn/snowplow skiing as the "very" fundamental/foundation of downhill skiing, so that's the first thing I teach to the beginners. And most of time I don't teach my [adult] students new thing until they can do solid snowplow turn.

Some may claim that they learn how to skiing begin with parallel skiing, and that "seems" to be very cool; however, parallel skiing is a high level technique, as it is efficient, it is fast, without a good foundation [to slowdown], if a beginner rushes into it, it's only courting a disaster.
Have you spent any time reviewing some of the old threads on this list? I know that I am not the only one who strongly disagrees with the habits that you're building by starting with an old-fashioned snowplow turn. Especially with shaped skis, it's very likely that your students are fighting the skis rather than going with them.
post #13 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichiskiing
Snowplow skiing may be a less efficient skiing than parallel skiing, however, I don't consider it as "bad" habit. A "bad" habit of skiing is dragging the ski poles, or pole randomly here and there, which are how majority skiers ski on the slope.
Please review the classic EpicSki thread on the Perfect Turn, especially post #11 by Bob Barnes. Then, consider how the classic snowplow turn (manually moving your weight to the right ski to turn left and vice-versa) opposes the more effective movements described therein. There are many such threads here, but suffice to say that while people can ski this way, they will not learn effective, strong technique that will allow them the full range of skiing, including pure carving, skarving, etc.
post #14 of 123
I find the (snow plow) an effective tool in cetain situations. I think perfect turns only happen under perfect conditions (I havent found the ski area yet)

MTT
post #15 of 123
MTT, did you read the thread? It doesn't seem like it from your comments. It really is an important idea to understand...how our movements can actually be counter to our intent, how intent dictates technique, and so on.

I stand by my statement: snowplow turns create habits of both thought and action that need to be "unlearned" later. Note: we're not having a wedge v. direct-to-parallel conversation here. But, an old fashioned snowplow discussion.
post #16 of 123
SSH:

Yes I did read the thread. Every single post.
Original intent was about Ski Poles. (No option from a teaching perspective) I use them.
The subject seemed to steer towards the (Snow plow)
I don't have an opinion as to what shout be taught first. I only know how I was taught. (And that was a long time ago)

So,
In my not so humble opinion,
Snow plow is a (Mandatory skill for a high end skier) Especially Ski patrol?

Direct parallel /side slipping, may end up being the effective way to introduce new skiers to control of gravity. Or it may just be another fad. (Time will tell)
I used to own Jet sticks /an all that entails.

MTT
PS: I will keep to myself what I think about ski instructors who spend their entire day on 160ish SL skis, telling anyone they see that their skis are too long and they should get short skis.
post #17 of 123
SSH,
So what happens to your remedial students who struggle and create a split within the class? Short of calling for another pro, what would you do? Maybe in this situation a wedge would be an appropriate option. Additionally, do your students parallel in the lift maze?
post #18 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
So what happens to your remedial students who struggle and create a split within the class? Short of calling for another pro, what would you do? Maybe in this situation a wedge would be an appropriate option. Additionally, do your students parallel in the lift maze?
sigh :

I thought I was very clear that I was not talking about a modern wedge. Nor even the emergency use of a snowplow as you mention here. I was referring to using a snowplow turn as part of a modern teaching progression.
post #19 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT
Yes I did read the thread. Every single post.
Original intent was about Ski Poles. (No option from a teaching perspective) I use them.
The subject seemed to steer towards the (Snow plow)
I don't have an opinion as to what shout be taught first. I only know how I was taught. (And that was a long time ago)
Umm... No... The perfect turn thread was definitely not about ski poles...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT
So,
In my not so humble opinion,
Snow plow is a (Mandatory skill for a high end skier) Especially Ski patrol?
Your conclusion, therefore, is that it should be taught to beginners in case they someday become members of the ski patrol?

Of course any advanced skier will be able to perform this maneuver. That doesn't make it a logical or helpful step in an early learn-to-ski progression. While there are undoubtedly learn-to-ski progressions that I don't know, none of the modern ones I know include it at any point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT
Direct parallel /side slipping, may end up being the effective way to introduce new skiers to control of gravity. Or it may just be another fad. (Time will tell)
I used to own Jet sticks /an all that entails.
So did I. What's your point? There really are only a few skills that get blended to ski, after all. Habits of their use, however, can be hinderances to advancement, so I avoid introducing movements that can become habitual and a roadblock later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT
PS: I will keep to myself what I think about ski instructors who spend their entire day on 160ish SL skis, telling anyone they see that their skis are too long and they should get short skis.
Ah, but you didn't, did you? Care to enlighten us regarding it? Or regarding to whom you were directing the comment? Seems a bit of a red herring to me.
post #20 of 123
As an aside, Ichen, I am very impressed at how fluent your written English has suddenly become! Quite remarkable.

As for poles, wedge, snowplough, I adapt and use what's necessary for each student. I don't *like* snowplough very much, but for some people it is what's needed to get them off the flat and proceeding down the hill.
Usually for the terrified, the fat and/or terminally sportless, the old... it's a tool to use with those for whom the feeling of the skis running is pure horror.

I do use the snowplough wedln as a cunning short-cut for very young, fearless people, but its efficacy is limited with older, fatter, scareder people. It's magical with the gung-ho though.
post #21 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant
As for poles, wedge, snowplough, I adapt and use what's necessary for each student. I don't *like* snowplough very much, but for some people it is what's needed to get them off the flat and proceeding down the hill.
Usually for the terrified, the fat and/or terminally sportless, the old... it's a tool to use with those for whom the feeling of the skis running is pure horror.
Good points, ant. Thanks.
post #22 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky
However, my daughter's race team did an exercise I saw where they KEPT poles on the snow surface, or tried to, as some kind of training about their shoulders. Naturally, you wouldn't race like that!!
I use these exercises all the time, they are brilliant. Multi-purpose, just doing them forces the skiier to do things "properly", without having to think about it, and they feel it working.

The shoulders thing would be to get their shoulders at the same angle as the hill, and maybe to stabilise the upper body so it didn't move. I suspect it's the former though.
post #23 of 123
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Please review the classic EpicSki thread on the
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Perfect Turn, especially post #11 by Bob Barnes. Then, consider how the classic snowplow turn (manually moving your weight to the right ski to turn left and vice-versa) opposes the more effective movements described therein. There are many such threads here, but suffice to say that while people can ski this way, they will not learn effective, strong technique that will allow them the full range of skiing, including pure carving, skarving, etc.


Thanks for the link; sorry that I didn't get it; he lost me after the "drum roll."

The way I look at it, a skier turns is not because the skier itself has turned (it may not affect the traveling of the skis), nor the skis have turned (it may only create a side slip), but the "track" of the skis has turned, which carries the skier's CM traveling in a curved path, as it is changing direction, it is a "turn."

As for "perfect," I go by this way: "[being there,] right time at the right place." So, the "perfect turn," imo, is "being there, right time at the right place along all points on the curved path"; that is to say when your body, all parts of it, "feel" an uniformed angular acceleration, so you would have/feel no disturbance of imbalance, you would have entered a "perfect turn."

I was complaining to a "Perfect Turn" coach, that he had "extra" pole-plant marks along his "perfect turn" track. Funny that.

No, I didn't say that you stop progressing after you've learned snowplow turn, nor discard it after you've learned parallel skiing, but keep it as one important technique for your skiing repertoire.


IS
post #24 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichiskiing


No, I didn't say that you stop progressing after you've learned snowplow turn, nor discard it after you've learned parallel skiing, but keep it as one important technique for your skiing repertoire.


IS
Be careful TCS, you are again about to embark on another futile exercise of butting your head against an immovable brick wall.

Difference is, in this one the wall is wrong and I'm on your side of the wall.
post #25 of 123
Bob is also quick to add..........."you only made your best turn once"
post #26 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT
SSH:


So,
In my not so humble opinion,
Snow plow is a (Mandatory skill for a high end skier) Especially Ski patrol?

My 2 cents on this aspect. Yes it is a very handy skill for a patroller---but when done in the traditional sense (your minds eye view of someone snow plowing---sitting way back, wide wedge, High edge angle, tips bouncing off the snow) It is extremely tiring and inneficient.

I was coached to keep everything forward using a wedge in the sled handles---it takes that emmense pressure off the thighs, give much better balance and control. When done properly, edge angles control speed and braking by just rolling the knees a bit. Being balanced means terrain and surface conditions don't have as much negative effects.
post #27 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_j
My 2 cents on this aspect. Yes it is a very handy skill for a patroller---but when done in the traditional sense (your minds eye view of someone snow plowing---sitting way back, wide wedge, High edge angle, tips bouncing off the snow) It is extremely tiring and inneficient.

I was coached to keep everything forward using a wedge in the sled handles---it takes that emmense pressure off the thighs, give much better balance and control. When done properly, edge angles control speed and braking by just rolling the knees a bit. Being balanced means terrain and surface conditions don't have as much negative effects.
What? You mean that patrollers don't use the flying wedge of death?! Really?
post #28 of 123
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Be careful TCS, you are again about to embark on another futile exercise of butting your head against an immovable brick wall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick

Difference is, in this one the wall is wrong and I'm on your side of the wall.



Thanks for the support, Rick, it's good to hear it, I think.


IS
post #29 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichiskiing
No, I didn't say that you stop progressing after you've learned snowplow turn, nor discard it after you've learned parallel skiing, but keep it as one important technique for your skiing repertoire.
I didn't say this, either. What I said was classic snowplow turns teach body movements that are counter-productive for modern turns. So, to transition from a classic snowplow to a carved turn, for instance, you have to dramatically change your body dynamics.

Certainly one can do this. It's just a (sometimes much) longer path to effective skiing.
post #30 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Be careful TCS, you are again about to embark on another futile exercise of butting your head against an immovable brick wall.

Difference is, in this one the wall is wrong and I'm on your side of the wall.
And which wall would that be, Rick? I always appreciate your technical assessments, even when I don't understand them or don't agree with them. However, this is one I don't get...

Are you saying that you believe a learn-to-ski progression is better served by developing the skills to do a braking snowplow turn than learning the gentler and more effective skills of gently applied rotation and edge angles implied by either a modern wedge or direct-to-parallel progression? If so, please help me understand. You should know me well enough to know that I'm willing to learn something new (I've done that a lot, here), but also that it needs to make sense before I'm willing to buy into it.
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