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Dear Tai-Chi-Skiing, - Page 4

post #91 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by ydnar
"Because of the past behavior of TCS, a group of us have decided not to respond to any more of his messages on this forum. I would encourage everyone reading this message to do the same. Feel free to copy this message and post it yourself whenever you feel it appropriate. Multiple copies of this message, each posted by a different person, are fine."


Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier
"Because of the past behavior of TCS, a group of us have decided not to respond to any more of his messages on this forum. I would encourage everyone reading this message to do the same. Feel free to copy this message and post it yourself whenever you feel it appropriate. Multiple copies of this message, each posted by a different person, are fine."


So, two stiffens remain; have to hand it to you guys, your pissing in your pants to show that you're a tough guy is really impressive. Are you guys engaging in pissing contest to see whose pants get wet the most, to be the toughest guy? Or just some lower little characters couldn't pick the debate, and couldn't put down the humiliation of losing face, and stuck with the incompetence, going nowhere?

"Dressing in colorful clothes, fancy makeup, making face to fawn on the world, yet not knowing oneself is doing it is fawning in the name of Tao, one vulgar among the common people, who sees the right and wrong on others and cannot see the same thing on oneself is foolish to the most. One who knows one's own foolishness is not the most fool (Da-Yu); one who knows one's own bewilderment is not the most stupid (Da-Huo). The most stupid one (Da-Huo) is bewildered all his life; the most foolish one (Da-Yu) is ineffective all his life. When three people band together to do something, one person is bewildered, things may still be done, [for] the portion of bewilderment is less; two persons are bewildered, although hard working, things may not be achieved, as the portion of bewilderment becomes excessive; [now,] the whole world (most people) bewilder, although I wish, it (things wished) cannot be done, is that not sad?"
—Chuang-Tsu, "Heaven and Earth, 12"—


IS
post #92 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by arc2arc
DEAR TAI-CHI-Skiing,
Quote:
Originally Posted by arc2arc
Please do everyone on this professional forum a favor, 1) Get a life , 2) learn to ski, 3) Share ideas that can be backed up

Until you reach the above attainable goals (99% of persons posting on this forum) get lost. Furthermore I really feel sorry for the small number of students that have been exposed to your unfounded system of ski teaching. Please do your students a favor and refer them to a certified professional ski instructor legally assosiated with a ski area.
Mike


"From what I gather, you [the RSA charlatans and here the little mob of little knowledge and small mind] don't jump, can't do superpipe, can neither ski straight nor spin, but in a perpetuated wiggles, you think you are one great skier who knows all about skiing? Yup, thanks for being such a fine example of conceited little knowledge."


IS
post #93 of 111
"Because of the past behavior of TCS, a group of us have decided not to respond to any more of his messages on this forum. I would encourage everyone reading this message to do the same. Feel free to copy this message and post it yourself whenever you feel it appropriate. Multiple copies of this message, each posted by a different person, are fine."
post #94 of 111

My $.02

I agree with taichi....the "ignore" option is a cop out.

C'mon, sack it up and give the chump the severe beat down he deserves.
post #95 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston
"Because of the past behavior of TCS, a group of us have decided not to respond to any more of his messages on this forum. I would encourage everyone reading this message to do the same. Feel free to copy this message and post it yourself whenever you feel it appropriate. Multiple copies of this message, each posted by a different person, are fine."
OK, LET'S START NOT RESPONDING ALREADY! IT'S WORTH A TRY! WE KNOW WHAT A GROUP OF US HAVE DECIDED TO DO BUT WE HAVE NOT YET SEEN THEM DO IT.
post #96 of 111
OK, enough of this nonsense. The whole group has been telling this guy over and over that we don't want to hear any more of his insultive, contentless posts. We haven't responded to him for quite awhile, yet he still keeps spewing out his name calling, off topic posts. I think it's time to shut down his threads and if he then disrupts other threads with his personally abusive posts he should be removed from our forum for good. All he's doing here is degrading the quality of Epicski.

If you agree with the above thinking, please copy and post this message.


DCHAN, PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD !!
post #97 of 111
Rick, if you let him have the last word, it's over. It's over as soon as you and the rest of us quit responding. TSC didn't start this thread. He only responds to posts. Don't post. Saying you aren't responding isn't not responding. This guy is the biggest player, gets the most attention of anyone on this forum. New threads are still being started in his honor. Why should he be banned?
post #98 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15
Rick, if you let him have the last word, it's over. It's over as soon as you and the rest of us quit responding. TSC didn't start this thread. He only responds to posts. Don't post. Saying you aren't responding isn't not responding. This guy is the biggest player, gets the most attention of anyone on this forum. New threads are still being started in his honor. Why should he be banned?
Truly wise words and need at this point to be heeded....

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS
post #99 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15
Why should he be banned?
Actually, I'm inclined to agree with telelrod on this because of a few instances that come to mind.

Rick and Tom/PM among a crew of what was it? Maybe 5 technical types spent most of a month last summer debunking a thread call (as I recall) "Get of your edges".

The author of that thread was very good at debate, never got riled, but constantly---as if for the sport of it---put forth arguments that were proven to be unsound, but sounded quite plausible to the casual read.

That author is still around---inactive-- but still around.

Then there was a guy who claimed to have the latest and greatest somthing or other---tested thoroughly by the members of the Canadian Olympics team or something like that. He also--as I recall was good at debating but was eventually de-bunked.

He is still around-- inactive--- but still here.

Then we have a much more recent guy who claimed to be the best shop guy of all time.

He got profane and kinda scary.

He is banned.

Then there is the good ol guy who fell out of the tree house, said somethinmg foolish and he got banned.

He was a wonderful guide at Vail when we went and is a very pleasant fellow in person.

All posters of PMTS dogma are still here (Save for our guide at Vail).

TCS is no better or worse than the first 3 guys, except that he can't write worth a cr@@. And the style he espouses *shouldn't* mislead the casual reader - if the reader has even a modest working BS filter.

We've sort of seen by example, what behaviors end up with a member being banned---I don't see TCS's behavior at that level yet.

I do think a warning from AC/DC or someone might be in order.

Just my thoughts on the subject.
post #100 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by irul&ublo
...C'mon, sack it up and give the chump the severe beat down he deserves.
He already has been given a "severe beat down" here, as well as on numerous other forums (eg, Ant's post about RSA, the Taiwan forum, etc.), and yet he persists in trying to convince the world that none of these things have happened. Look at how TCS responded to Ant's post. Most people intuitively feel that a "severe beat down" should eventually penetrate the psyche of any reasonable person, yet the evidence in TCS's case is that it never has. To be honest, the suggestion of a "severe beat down" after all the criticism that has already been given to TCS suggests that you either have not read the threads, or are interested only in the entertainment such might provide.


Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15
...Rick, if you let him have the last word, it's over. It's over as soon as you and the rest of us quit responding. TSC didn't start this thread. ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrstrat57
"...DON'T FEED THE TROLLS..."
These statements are off-target in two ways:

(1) TCS started his own thread, and threw nonsense into another. The chances are good that he will do this again. This will cause continued disruptions and debasement of the technical content on Epic. Rick took into account this possibility in his last post: "... and if he then disrupts other threads with his personally abusive posts he should be removed from our forum for good ..."

(2) IMO, suggestions to "say nothing" are naive in the context of the history of Internet forums. There are countless examples of people on other discussion forums who have tried what you are suggesting, and it has failed dreadfully and consistently. The reasons include personal attacks that are almost impossible for a person to resist responding to, newbies who are unaware of the history of the situation and get drawn into discussion, either because they think that they can persuade the person to "see the light", have "the ultimate argument", "need to correct a technical error", etc. That just triggers another series of disruptive posts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15
...Saying you aren't responding isn't not responding...
You're right - It's better than not responding. Responding with a stock message may prolong a thread, but the benefit is that this approach leaves a large (ie, many posts), permanent record that tells newbies that many (in this case, all) other participants on the forum consider the person in question to be disruptive, and that newbies should stay clear of this person. Responding with a stock message also gives people who have been personally attacked a way to "do something", and not just try to sit on their thumbs while being defamed in a public forum. The third benefit is that it gives both the disruptive person and the administrators a chance to see exactly how many people are opposed to the disruptive person. The disruptive person than can decide whether or not to continue his behavior or improve. If the disruptive person continues, the admins have all the evidence they need to boot them off of the forum, and do so with what amounts to a vote by the participants.

I think that the last several days of "stock responses" have worked exactly as I thought they would, and have provided us with precisely the evidence that we need for how to proceed. Rick has suggested an approach which gives TCS one last chance, and if TCS doesn't straighten out, the final logical step.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
OK, enough of this nonsense. The whole group has been telling this guy over and over that we don't want to hear any more of his insultive, contentless posts. We haven't responded to him for quite awhile, yet he still keeps spewing out his name calling, off topic posts. I think it's time to shut down his threads and if he then disrupts other threads with his personally abusive posts he should be removed from our forum for good. All he's doing here is degrading the quality of Epicski.

If you agree with the above thinking, please copy and post this message.


DCHAN, PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD !!
I fully support this approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_j
...We've sort of seen by example, what behaviors end up with a member being banned---I don't see TCS's behavior at that level yet...
IMHO, this is a reasonable, level-headed comment. In response I would note:
  • We have been providing the warnings - first in normal posts, then in a few days of "stock message" posts.
  • We are now asking for the next level of warning - ie, shut down the threads but allow him continued access to Epic.
  • We are telling TCS in no uncertain terms what is in store for him if he doesn't shape up after the above warnings.
The only slight variance I have with Skier_J's comment is that when a person starts making technically flawed remarks on Epic, the burden of keeping the technical quality of the forum high usually falls on a relatively small number of individuals, and it takes a huge amount of their time to make sure that casual readers don't get sucked in by the BS. For example, we have seen this happen time and time again with Bob Barnes - he gave incredibly freely of his time whether responding to nonsense or outright provocation. For this reason, I would prefer that if a person is making erronious statements, has been given feedback on these in comments by numerous people, shows absolutely no intention to either learn or argue logically, and persists with the tenacity that TCS has, I lean towards ramping up the penalties perhaps a bit earlier than someone who has not been sitting for hour after hour composing appropriate and thought-out responses.


Tom / PM
post #101 of 111
Tom/PM

I can't disagree with anything you've said!

We've also seen a temporary ban used to send a message.
post #102 of 111
A valued member was temporarily banned. I don't think a temporary ban will change TCS.

I hear you, Tom about making it clear to readers that his ideas hold little credence with the community. I think his ideas got more attention than they deserved but all of the feedback was negative. Nobody will accept any of our advice if numerous others rebut.

I'm guilty of feeding this thread more than anyone TCS included and I'm the only one who is suggesting that he be allowed to submit ideas and have ideas challenged. I think it is good for the forum to be open to all ideas. No one is going to the internet ready to believe everything they read there. Obviously this forum allows anyone to post and no one expects everyone to be correct.

Have faith in the forum and visitors to be a tiny bit smart. This thread was started as a lynching party now the posse wants it closed. TCS haters started the thread, now cry to moderators. That doesn't make our community look good. Let it go.
post #103 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15
A valued member was temporarily banned. I don't think a temporary ban will change TCS.
Please read carefully. No one proposed a temporary ban. Rick and I proposed a series of graduated warnings culminating in a total ban.

Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15
...I'm the only one who is suggesting that he be allowed to submit ideas and have ideas challenged.
Yes, we are quite aware of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15
...No one is going to the internet ready to believe everything they read there. Obviously this forum allows anyone to post and no one expects everyone to be correct.
Of course, no one expects everyone to be correct. What they do expect is that whatever concepts are put forward, they will be discussed and vetted by the other participants. When most people propose something unusual, and absolutely no one else agrees with them, they will usually back off, think about it, play with the suggested drills and techniques, come up with a better logical argument, etc.. TCS has done absolutely none of this.

Whether you are aware of it or not, this forum is regarded by many as THE most authoratative source of information on skiing on the Internet. Many of us would like it stay that way and not have it become a trivialized debating / flaming forum like almost every other internet discussion group. It is very difficult to walk the line between stiffling censorship and a wild-west free-for-all. That is what we are attempting to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15
...I think it is good for the forum to be open to all ideas.
Only up to a point. TCS has passed that point long ago. As far as I can tell, with the exception of you, everyone else agrees with this. In my opinion and that of many other people, your suggestion to let TCS continue is not very far from supporting a position that flat-earth people, Nazis, etc. be allowed time in our schools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15
...Have faith in the forum and visitors to be a tiny bit smart.
That's not the issue. IMHO, the real issue at hand is the dilution of the information content and distruction of the currently excellent reputation of Epic. This again comes back to how you see the purpose of this forum. In my opinion, I feel that anyone who wants free-wheeling debate on any topic of their choice (including skiing) has lots of options (RSA comes immediately to mind). OTOH, there is only one Epic, and it's primary value and distinction is the information content. Of course, in the final analysis, nothing that we say matters as this is a privately held forum, and AC has the ultimate say in what direction he wants it to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15
...This thread was started as a lynching party now the posse wants it closed. TCS haters started the thread, now cry to moderators. That doesn't make our community look good. Let it go.
Again, may I suggest that you read carefully. The first post in this thread says, "... Please don 't go away mad, just go away. Anyone agreeing with the above idea add your post to this thread. ..." . That doesn't sound like a lynching party - it sounds like one guest at a party asking another guest, a drunk, to leave their house and asking the other guests if they all agree. Actually, I think our present series of actions makes our community look even better than if we allow characters to disrupt productive discussions.

IMO, your characterization about "crying to the moderators" is also highly inaccurate. I can assure you that over the past month, I have had numerous emails and private messages from other members asking ME why I didn't immediately ask AC to have TCS banned given his history. My response was, "lets give him the benefit of the doubt and see what he does". I am sure that if a sufficient number of us had asked AC to have TCS banned at any earlier point, AC would have done so. I think we were all giving TCS enough rope to hang himself.

Like Rick, I think we have seen enough. We are now, for the first time asking for a graded series of consequences. We are giving TCs yet one more chance - only these threads will be shut down - he won't be banned ...yet.

Telerod, you sound like a kind and sensitive soul and a person I could easily be friends with, but on this issue, I think you are very obviously in the minority.

Sincerely,

Tom / PM
post #104 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15
A valued member was temporarily banned. I don't think a temporary ban will change TCS.

.
I never said "valued" ............ sorry Gon...- er i mean certain unnamed member..........couldn't resist!!
post #105 of 111
Thanks Tom. I guess we will agree to disagree on this subject. He has wasted bandwidth but I don't think he has harmed the integrity of Epicski. I stand by my last post and applaud the moderators for allowing free open discussion. I think TCS has been thoroughly discredited and rightfully so and good for Epicski community to do that. No one will take his advice with more than a grain of salt if we can make good arguments against him. Everyone wants to have the last word, but it isn't necessary. I really believe it's better to let him post and ignore or debate. I tried to not respond in solidarity to the consensus of the group but If TCS threads always show up when I clicik on new posts I will read and may respond. I would have quit, I tried to not comment but you and other protectors of Epicski won't let it go.

Youi imply that asking him to leave but don't leave mad and everyone who agrees to post up is not a lynching party. Please. Post again on this thread if you think it's worthy of further discussion.
post #106 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15
No one will take his advice with more than a grain of salt ....

Wrong. Anyone with a desire to look like a complete dork will pay close attention.
post #107 of 111

TCS no more

Some high level discussion here and much appreciated. PM and TROD engage in a nice thoughtful debate. Beautifully written stuff, what the worldwide web should be. Herewith follows my last ( I promise) post regarding the TCS matter. Again, I am a new poster but I have been reading for years. The course of action I have taken with TCS is ignore. However, I did feed the threads a bit previously and for that in retrospect I apologize. Just now I read some of his recent posts and I now understand how some of you are so offended. I would not dream of speaking to a valued veteran bear in such a rude manor. The "pxxxxg in you pants" comment is really unacceptable on a public forum.....and it is repeated over and over in an obvious attempt to get the veteran bear to bite. Folks with all due respect this is nonsense. He feeds off of your anger. Ignore the posts. The reposting of the paragraph is IMO juvenile and fuels his frenzy - I would suggest folks stand down on that approach. Tho I am reluctant to suggest a ban, after viewing the recent abusive responses(I had ignore on remember) I can understand the offense that is taken. I am sure DCHAN is viewing this matter carefully. I trust him completely. I understand that a ban is a most serious step and is to be avoided in all but the most difficult of cases. Ignore back on. I will view no more TCS forever. Ban or ignore? I choose ignore.
post #108 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15
He has wasted bandwidth but I don't think he has harmed the integrity of Epicski. I stand by my last post and applaud the moderators for allowing free open discussion.
Telerod, we're way past free open discussion. TCS presented his singular idea to us long long ago. Everyone on the forum almost unanomously rejected it as sillyness. Since then he has introduced nothing new in the way of technical ideas, or defense of his position. All he's done, and continues to do, is personally insult anyone who disagrees with him or refuses to engage in his childish game of name calling.

There's nothing occuring in this thread of any worth, Telerod. All that's happening by allowing this nonsense to continue is that bandwidth is being wasted and the appearance of the Epicski instruction forum is transforming from that of a high level informational resource we were all proud to participate in into a low quality joke of a disscussion group that's feeding on controversy more than learning.

Personally, that disturbs me, and if it continues you will see the departure of guys like Physics Man and myself, and the gaps we leave will be filled in by others of TCS's caliber.
post #109 of 111
Let it go Rick. A group of us have kind of almost agreed to try to let it go.
post #110 of 111
Good luck to you.
post #111 of 111
Tom/PM, great post. I agree that he has hurt the integrity of this forum/community. EpicSki is unique in that the way that its members conduct themselves is VERY professional all most all of the time. It leads members to respect each other and the information that they can offer to each other. I know that I have learned many valuable things here, as well as engaged in some very good discussions from gear to technique on snow. I would like to see that community that we had when there were only 500 of us remain as we grow toward 10,000 members. This is a unique site and unique group of people. The information that is presented here is often argued, debated, and thought about thoroughly... unfortunately TCS only persisted to argue, and missed the most critical part of the discussion here. The well thought out posts and threads are what makes EpicSki the close-kit informative community that it is. Since I have been reading here nearly since the inception of the forum, I would like to keep it this way, and not cheapen what many have spent so long building.
Later
GREG
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