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"Wide Stance" - Page 4

post #91 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
.....
I think one of the reasons I find so much transfer from tai chi to skiing is related to hip/leg circumduction. The hip deliberately moving in control through multiple planes, while the core is stabilizing and transfering forces, as the feet remain rooted. Later, RicB.


Now you are talking about Tai Chi Skiing; Tai Chi Skiing, given the Tai Chi terminology, is "rooted on the skis/feet," "controlled at the waist," and "manifested on the hands."

"Rooted on the skis/feet," so in balancing the gravity, the body must also absorb the reaction force from the gravity, and the body does it by moving the weight/CM around, guess that's what you mean by "circumduction." "Controlled at the waist" is to say, using the two big back muscles (located just outside of where kidneys are) to move the hips to move Dan-Tian/CM to move the legs... While the shoulders are kept steady facing the fall-line, the rotation is done by moving the hips against the shoulders. The shoulders balance the force by redirect it, through the arms, and release it on the hands, "manifested on the hands."

http://taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_p_issolo1.jpg

fun stuff,
IS

Ps Oops, back to the topic, as for wide stance? It's good for setting up edges fast, but I like the "circumduction"'s fluidity.
post #92 of 111
Nolo, your movements in "posting" of the outside leg is why I think the lifting of the inside hip can be so beneficial to students. I see this movement allowing a connection between the inside hip and the outside leg and foot, allowing also the full ranges of motion in the hip to happen simultaneously.

If I move into counter too quickly, or move lateraly too quickly, I end up reducing the fine movements that keep a strong inside half along with continuos movement. Both of these, overcountering too quickly, and moving lateraly too quickly, force oversteering of the inside ski and a more static position, and an inability to manage the pressure effectively.

Rick, I think this is what you are saying, right? that the long leg, short leg, is a result of the need for pressure management resulting from inside leg steering. To me this still diminishes the role of the outside leg getting longer.

From my own expereince the two are joined together for effective skiing. Really extending the outside leg opens up the full range of motion needed to manage all skills.

Lifting the inside hip as an exercise, will force outside leg extension (posting), and allow the student to move from one dimensional hip movement patterns to multidimentional hip movements. I think this is why it is so effective.

still hashing things over in my mind. Later, RicB.
post #93 of 111
Quote:
I see this movement allowing a connection between the inside hip and the outside leg and foot
Absolutely! Thanks for pointing this out, Ric, this is major.
post #94 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
If I move into counter too quickly, or move lateraly too quickly, I end up reducing the fine movements that keep a strong inside half along with continuos movement. Both of these, overcountering too quickly, and moving lateraly too quickly, force oversteering of the inside ski and a more static position, and an inability to manage the pressure effectively.

Rick, I think this is what you are saying, right? that the long leg, short leg, is a result of the need for pressure management resulting from inside leg steering. To me this still diminishes the role of the outside leg getting longer.

From my own expereince the two are joined together for effective skiing. Really extending the outside leg opens up the full range of motion needed to manage all skills.

Lifting the inside hip as an exercise, will force outside leg extension (posting), and allow the student to move from one dimensional hip movement patterns to multidimentional hip movements. I think this is why it is so effective.

still hashing things over in my mind. Later, RicB.
This brings up an interesting question. Does the outside leg extend under load during the first half of the turn? I did a clinic with Stephanie Brown this past season that I would like to share but before doing so I would like to read your opinions.
post #95 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
This brings up an interesting question. Does the outside leg extend under load during the first half of the turn? I did a clinic with Stephanie Brown this past season that I would like to share but before doing so I would like to read your opinions.
That's kinda like asking, are we always long in the same part of every turn?

Anyway, I would say yes, with some fudge factor. Without enough load on my ski to make it work, my extention accomplishes nothing. Howerver, I see the load on the leg being like our movements, the load should be progressive. I don't maxload right away, I want to have the max load of a turn coincide with max extension of the leg. Off course what gets long must get short, and what gets progressively loaded must get progressively unloaded. The yin and yang of it all. these are, of course, my own thoughts, so anyone else?

Share the clinic with us. Later, Ricb.
post #96 of 111

Clinic notes

The discipline that you mentioned brought back an idea we worked on involving the transition from one foot to another. To do the maneuver we have to assume this is a free skiing turn because it allows us to choose the apex and the halfway points of the turn. So the fudge factor is that eventually it can be incorporated into a race turn if you are so inclined.
Start by going straight down a blue run for say four or five ski lengths to get up enough speed. Then turn left (gs radius) by retracting the left leg until you are traversing at a fourty-five degree angle. Start flexing the outside leg until it is the same length as the inside leg, while simultaneously steering both skis across the hill. However, and this is important, do not allow any of the pressure to transfer to the inside foot! As the skis reach and pass neutral continue to flex the new inside leg while still maintaining all of the pressure and weight from the previous turn. Meanwhile, allow the outside leg to extend (as a slightly weighted outrigger) until somewhere near the apex (middle) of the turn. By then the forces will naturally shift to the outside ski due to difference in leg length and the centrifugal forces. Link several turns this way to get the feel for the elongated transition from foot to foot. A final, and optional, part of the progression is to seek higher edge angles while maintaining the same slow weight transfer.
post #97 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
Without enough load on my ski to make it work, my extention accomplishes nothing. Howerver, I see the load on the leg being like our movements, the load should be progressive. I don't maxload right away, I want to have the max load of a turn coincide with max extension of the leg. Off course what gets long must get short, and what gets progressively loaded must get progressively unloaded. The yin and yang of it all. these are, of course, my own thoughts, so anyone else?
I have a lot of reading to do in this thread, but this aligns with my current summer visualization focus...

My principal ski technique fault focus is this flex/extend sequence. I am not extending enough in the belly of the turn (maintain a flex throughout the turn) and am also not flexing completely at transition, resulting in a bit of a "hiccup" just before transition.

I suspect that this has something to do with my needing to trust my edges more when the feet/skis are fully loaded. Do you see this fitting in with the idea of progression you mention here...
post #98 of 111
The high edge angles used in racing and fitting in the blocking (my word for the rotational tensioning) are works in progress but so far they seem to be congruent with this maneuver. What I have noticed is that the inside ski scribes a cleaner arc while the forces are building and shifting to the outside ski. The outside ski naturally scribes a parallel and slightly longer arc until we reach the apex, where things get back to familiar outside ski dominant skiing.
I was hoping to see a few more posts before sharing this but I imagine it will cause some reactions (hopefully not all negative) because it is rather unique.
JASP
post #99 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
This brings up an interesting question. Does the outside leg extend under load during the first half of the turn? I did a clinic with Stephanie Brown this past season that I would like to share but before doing so I would like to read your opinions.
Depends on the transition technique being employed.

In retraction; no. Here, the skis become light, the legs extend (the outside the most), then pressure and balance are reestablished.

With inside leg extension; most definately. Here, extension of the new outside leg initiates the immediate transfer of pressure, so the extension is under load.

With a white pass lean (weighted release for you new school kids); no again. Here, the turn starts on the new inside ski and pressure does not transfer untill later in the turn, and post outside leg extension.

Such is the reality of advanced skiing; there are few absolutes.
post #100 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
Howerver, I see the load on the leg being like our movements, the load should be progressive. I don't maxload right away,
Excellent, Ric. This is one of the key elements of efficient carving I've been teaching my students since the beginning of my coaching career (some where in the 1800's I think ) It's achieved through progressive edge angle applications, and subtle extensions.

Quote:
Off course what gets long must get short, and what gets progressively loaded must get progressively unloaded. The yin and yang of it all. these are, of course, my own thoughts, so anyone else?
The rate of release of edge is not as crucial as the rate of application of edge. A rapid release, as can be accomplished with retraction can be a very effective technique for a quick transition that provides a clean exit and carries minimal negative effects. The same can't be said for an abrupt application of high edge angle and high pressure. Clean entries and harsh edge/pressure applications just don't mix
post #101 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
What I have noticed is that the inside ski scribes a cleaner arc while the forces are building and shifting to the outside ski. The outside ski naturally scribes a parallel and slightly longer arc until we reach the apex, where things get back to familiar outside ski dominant skiing.
JASP
A reasonable, technically sound observation Jasper.
post #102 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
The rate of release of edge is not as crucial as the rate of application of edge. A rapid release, as can be accomplished with retraction can be a very effective technique for a quick transition that provides a clean exit and carries minimal negative effects. The same can't be said for an abrupt application of high edge angle and high pressure. Clean entries and harsh edge/pressure applications just don't mix
Rick I totaly agree here. I think about myself and my students, and what breaks down most of the time in advanced skiing though, and it quite often is the progressiveness (rate) of the movements. This also affects the timing of the movements, as it can be hard to go from rapid flexion to a smooth, progressive, extention. Not as critical, as you say, but for myself to really own flexion, and consistently manage the pressure through the bottom half of the turn, I need to play at the slow progressive end of the spectrum. Then anything less becomes controlled and doable.

White pass turns. We played with these some in clinics this past winter. Varied them to keeping the outside ski off the snow, extending it in the air, then onto the snow at the falline. They are a good one for shining light on my weaknesses.

Rick, your students are damn lucky to have someone with yours of experience and knowledge as a coach. I know I always learn form these conversations with you. As my wife always tells me, it is a blessing to get older!!! Later, RicB.
post #103 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
I have a lot of reading to do in this thread, but this aligns with my current summer visualization focus...

My principal ski technique fault focus is this flex/extend sequence. I am not extending enough in the belly of the turn (maintain a flex throughout the turn) and am also not flexing completely at transition, resulting in a bit of a "hiccup" just before transition.

I suspect that this has something to do with my needing to trust my edges more when the feet/skis are fully loaded. Do you see this fitting in with the idea of progression you mention here...
I don't know Steve. Maybe you should think about slowing down the edging, allowing your edges to progress with your extension.

Also as I said in another post, for myself, I find the management of the rate of flexion/pressure through the bottom of the turn, sets me up for a smooth transition and progressive movements into the apex of the next turn.

When I feel like I'm stalling out in my long leg short leg, I focus on getting my feet going in different directions along the centerline of my body. Moving my outside foot away from my butt, and moving my inside foot up towards my butt. Usually puts me back on track. Later, RicB.
post #104 of 111
Steve,
Deb Armstrong has a saying that I like to think about as I bring the inside leg up. Bring the ankle up to the glut using the hamstrings. It helps maintain a strong and balanced inside half of the body, which allows you to explore greater range of motion with more confidence.
Jasp
post #105 of 111
Quote:
Bring the ankle up to the glut using the hamstrings.
Now that's specific! I like it very much. Thanks for passing it along.
post #106 of 111
Steve, you tend to prefer a shorter turn; you might explore the subtleties of skiing longer radius arcs. Remember grandma's "If ya caint sing purty, sing LOUD?" It translates in skiing to: If ya caint move purty, move FAST.
post #107 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
White pass turns. We played with these some in clinics this past winter. Varied them to keeping the outside ski off the snow, extending it in the air, then onto the snow at the falline. They are a good one for shining light on my weaknesses.
Yes, that is a great drill, Ric. The lean (total inside ski initiation) is a rather fun feeling, hanging out into space, and the recovery to the outside ski provides a good demonstration of the function of the inside hip lift.

Which brings something to mind. If you're ever bored and looking for a new balance drill to try, give this one a whirl. It's self created, and I named it the "OOPS,,, THERE" drill.

The drill is designed to simulate a loss of outside ski balance in the belly of the turn, and a recovery of outside ski balance at the end of the turn. As such, it's great for isolating the movement of the inside hip to demonstrate to students how that specific movement affects lateral balance.

It should be done on a moderate groomer, and is executed through a series of large GS turns. Each turn starts on the outside ski, transfers to the inside ski as the student enters the falline (the OOPS), and recovers to the outside ski as the student is leaving the falline (the THERE).

When I have students do these I actually have them yell out loud OOPS as they fall onto their inside ski, and THERE as they make the recovery, as they execute the drill. Good as a mental cue for timing. Also, be sure to keep the radius of the turns large enough to allow enough time to break each turn into these 3 distinct segments.

And, something I've added the during the last few years; inside leg extension as the preferred transition technique. Well suited for this drill as it's the transition technique that provides the earliest outside ski pressure, so it serves to lengthen the initial outside ski segment of the drill.

Quote:
Rick, your students are damn lucky to have someone with yours of experience and knowledge as a coach. I know I always learn form these conversations with you. As my wife always tells me, it is a blessing to get older!!! Later, RicB
Thanks Ric, but it's not a one way street. I've been greatly benefiting (as I'm sure many others here are) as well from the fruits of your recent intense venture into interrelationship between human biomechanics and skiing. Thanks so much, Ric, for the time you devote to sharing your acquired knowledge with the Epic community.
post #108 of 111
Well, the white pass turn seems to have been recently dusted off in our division. Funny how things cycle back into favor.

Now the, opps,,,there, sounds like another good. I especially like the verbal cues, to help with the commitment, and the ILE. Gonna have to try this one.

Thanks Rick. You'll keep me from going over the top and getting lost I hope? ;>D

Later, RicB.
post #109 of 111
It's always interesting to read what both of you guys write here.

This exercise where you initiate on the inside ski and transfer pressure to the outside at the apex of the turn--I believe my coach called it the Outrigger. Whatever you call it, I think it's one of the neater ones in the canon of ski instruction.
post #110 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
The rate of release of edge is not as crucial as the rate of application of edge. A rapid release, as can be accomplished with retraction can be a very effective technique for a quick transition that provides a clean exit and carries minimal negative effects. The same can't be said for an abrupt application of high edge angle and high pressure. Clean entries and harsh edge/pressure applications just don't mix

Oh yeah - if you video me (even with my not very high edge angles) it is QUITE clear that it does not work.... every season they have to spend time reminding me to make the movements PATIENT when I apply the edge... in my defence I'll beg that I really am very unaware of the speed of my movement... so although I notice the result I still tend not to realise WHY I feel what I do until someone reminds me .... also happens when I get stressed or very tired when skiing... so it seems it is still something I need to consciously TRY to maintain all the time
post #111 of 111
Ric,
We also played with white pass turns but added a converging downstem at the fall line to teach a subtle edge engagement/weight shift. At speed (20mph) you really have to be subtle or you flip.
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