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"Wide Stance" - Page 3

post #61 of 111
What about skis with different sidecut radius on inside and outside edges? I have read about skis with more sidecut on the inside edge and another with more sidecut on the outside edge. Does any one here know why skis were designed with deeper sidecut on the inside edge?
post #62 of 111
Different sidecuts are a long history. I don´t know who was the first to use them but there was a small ski manufacturer in this country who had such skis in the early 1970s.
Volkl P9 (not the famous race ski followed by 10... 60) had it in about 1995. With the bigger radius inside you could make longer turns, the smaller radius made shorter turns possible (at least that was the theory).

Another story was the 30/28 m radius in the first Atomic Betarace 9.28 (the retail model, not the race stock which was conventional). There was the consideration of the difference between the paths of the outside and inside ski.
The idea might have come from the Austrian Helmut Gottschlich (I´m not sure but he definitely was one of the first to exploit it thoroughly) who was the father of those experimental Fischer Radarcs (the first generation, a lot of shape and strongly asymmetrical, funny tails). The Radarc survived till 2002/2003 and was probably the last ski of that type, though the last three seasons the difference in sidecut was not so prominent (11.3/10.7, the last season 11/10). The reason was the same as in 9.28.
The idea was interesting theoretically and Mr. Gottschlich was very eloquent when presenting the first Radarcs.
I´d be interested in hearing some comments of the physicists here.
post #63 of 111
Good answer Checkracer, as usual. I had forgotten the Radarc. Extreme carving never caught the attention of US skiers. We are extreme only in our fear of change. Most "serious" skiers here resisted short shaped skis for ten years, by then Radarc was long gone. The Scottybobs are the skis I was thinking of that had deeper side cut on outside edges which addresses the issue of inside ski making tighter arc in carved turns.

Did the Volkl's have more sidecut on the inside edge!? There was a good reason to design skis with deeper sidecut on inside edges but enabling wider range of turn size is not a good reason.

Anyone want to guess another reason skis were made with deeper sidecut on inside edge?
post #64 of 111
There must have been more double-sidecut skis. There was Olin Albert, the experimental ski from 1985 which had a deep sidecut inside and conventional outside (there was a story about it in SKI or SKIING back in the 90s).
I may have skied the Volkls mentioned but don´t remember anymore what they were like. Deeper sidecut inside was good enough only if you used the traditional technique with the inside ski (almost) not weighted.
Both skis in the pair were interchangeable so that L and R and "inside" and "outside" were the skier´s choice.
Those Volkls disappeared rather soon.

Btw, I didn´t have the impression that the Americans resisted short "hourglass" skis. The Elans SCX were more popular overseas than in Europe in the mid-90s. I found some usefel info on shaped skis in the American mags of that time. That extreme carving has never been a hype for you but it´s logical considering the proportion of on- and off-piste skiing (groomers vs. terrain).
The first-generation Radarcs were weird. The next were already OK, the short 150 cm was perfect but the 170 cm was too soft (at least the prototype in spring tests). The following were fine. The last I know about were made as a small series on a special offer from Poland (lots of extreme carving enthusiasts there) for 2003/2004.
post #65 of 111
No, Elan SCX was popular only with beginners and low intermediates in US. No experts were on anything shorter than 180's until 2003. A few exceptions of course.

You are on the right track though. Side cut on inside edge was and still is more important than sidecut on outside edge, because you can lift or unweight inside ski if necessary. That is the reason Anses made telemark racing skis with deeper sidecut on inside edge. The outside ski dominant turn could be carved on outside ski and inside ski just along for the ride. This is "bad" telemarking, it's better to equally weight both skis and carve both skis (even more so than in alpine), but design restrictions led to this strange design. There were (and may still be) restrictions on maximum ski width for telemark racing. They could keep shovel width within regulations and still have a tight turning radius on the outside ski by sacrificing inside ski carving capabilities a bit.
post #66 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15
No, Elan SCX was popular only with beginners and low intermediates in US. No experts were on anything shorter than 180's until 2003. A few exceptions of course.
I was on a Rossi T-Power Viper at 167 back in 1999-2000. That was a pretty common size ski for the PSIA-E Ed Staff back then. As early as 97-98, Examiners were on short slalom skis.
Asymmetric sidecuts have been tried from time to time, but they have never caught on. All the theorizing that you need to carve a smaller radius on the inside ski is just over-thinking a simple problem. When you ski with any intensity, most of your weight ends up on your outside ski, and it becomes pretty easy to steer the inside ski.

BK
post #67 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I think what typically happens in a carved turn is that some non carving happens with the inside ski, just as you suggested. The way I explained it in past discussions is that the inside ski steers not so much through a rotary action in the inside leg, but rather through a rotational tensioning of the inside leg that keeps that leg in rotational alignment with the outside leg throughout the turn. It's the tensioning of the inside leg that cause the inside ski to break out of it's carve and steer into a tighter radius.
What is "rotational tensioning?" That's just example of using language to obscure what is really happening. The only action a muscle can perform is to exert tension. Any intentional rotation movement is caused by "rotational tensioning." The only reason to draw a distinction between "rotary actions" and "rotational tensioning" is to minimize the importance of rotary skill. I've heard PMTS cultists write that way, but people trained in high performance skiing should know better.

BK
post #68 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer
What is "rotational tensioning?" That's just example of using language to obscure what is really happening. The only action a muscle can perform is to exert tension. Any intentional rotation movement is caused by "rotational tensioning." The only reason to draw a distinction between "rotary actions" and "rotational tensioning" is to minimize the importance of rotary skill. I've heard PMTS cultists write that way, but people trained in high performance skiing should know better.

BK
Strangely aggressive reply Bode. : I'd try to explain what I was talking about but it sounds like you have your mind made up on it already.

RicB, I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have some clearing up to do.
post #69 of 111
The inside ski isn't rotaional tensioning; it's flatboarding.
post #70 of 111
BK,
While this stuff is obviously old hat for you, why the put downs? For my money, discussing this stuff offers us all a chance to explore the little details we normally gloss over because we are too busy teaching.
post #71 of 111
Quote:
a rotational tensioning of the inside leg that keeps that leg in rotational alignment with the outside leg throughout the turn
Fastman, I think of this as the outside leg needing the inside leg to rotate to keep the outside ski on edge. In other words, the actions of the outside leg depend on and may be constrained by the actions of the inside leg.
post #72 of 111
A compelling issue in all this for me is how hip/leg flexion subvertes lateral movement of the hips and how hip/leg extention allows the full range of lateral motion. It is here that I think the cooperative lengthening of the outside leg coupled with the shortening of the inside leg is the deciding factor for high edge angles, with hips low to the ground, and the feet seperated across the snow. I first became aware of this through my tai chi practice Rick. If you remeber I posted on this at Paragon. Not sure how this fits in with your rotational tension though.

As the hip flexes, the muscle action to ab/adduct increasingnly becomes a rotational force on the ski. As the hip extends, the ability of the leg to abduct to full range of lateral motion increases without any rotational force to the ski. Put simply, a flexed hip has reduced range of motion while an extended hip has a full range of motion in all directions. Circumduction.

So, the extended hip also allows the leg to rotate, as in countering of the hips, to effectively create angles between the upper and lower body and effectively pressure the outside ski. I think is what Nolo was saying.

Personaly, I think if we give too much attention to what the inside leg is doing and ignore the outside leg and the cooperative effort of both we leave out a big piece of the puzzle. Bk's point about the outside leg. Later, RicB.
post #73 of 111
I learned a new word today: circumduction. I hope never to have to use it in polite company.

I totally agree with your notion of cooperation, relationship, etc. about the two legs, Ric. Still, I've seen you out on the slopes noodling on one ski and you know I like that too--can you explain to me how we do that with all the cooperation between left/right that is such a big piece of the puzzle?
post #74 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
I learned a new word today: circumduction. I hope never to have to use it in polite company.

I totally agree with your notion of cooperation, relationship, etc. about the two legs, Ric. Still, I've seen you out on the slopes noodling on one ski and you know I like that too--can you explain to me how we do that with all the cooperation between left/right that is such a big piece of the puzzle?
Well, I would say that the biggest key to success for one ski skiing, is the mirroring the movements of the on snow ski's foot and leg, by the off the snow foot and leg. The mirroring happens in all the planes too, meaning mirrored tipping, flex/extending, and rotionaly. We don't get the high edge angles we are talking about here on just one ski either. Later, Ricb.
post #75 of 111
I agree again, Ric: understanding of the mirroring, as you say, of both legs in skiing is a prerequisite to skiing proficiently on one ski.
post #76 of 111
RicB,
I think the point I was trying to make is illustrated by BBarnes in his book "The Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing". Look up closing. While Bob refers to the Wedge Christie, the activity of the inside ski in a parallel turn is also discussed on pg 65. Under "matching" he also describes the idea of pulling the inside tip away from the outside tip and it's effect on the outside ski. I agree that the outside ski is doing most of the work but the role of the inside ski is just as important when we talk about maintaining a wide stance.
post #77 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
BK,
While this stuff is obviously old hat for you, why the put downs? For my money, discussing this stuff offers us all a chance to explore the little details we normally gloss over because we are too busy teaching.
Not a putdown, just trying to be funny. What makes some jokes funny is that they have (just) a grain of truth in them.
post #78 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
RicB,
I think the point I was trying to make is illustrated by BBarnes in his book "The Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing". Look up closing. While Bob refers to the Wedge Christie, the activity of the inside ski in a parallel turn is also discussed on pg 65. Under "matching" he also describes the idea of pulling the inside tip away from the outside tip and it's effect on the outside ski. I agree that the outside ski is doing most of the work but the role of the inside ski is just as important when we talk about maintaining a wide stance.
I would agree with the idea that both are important, but our balance and our directed forces end up focused to the outside ski. The talk all seemed to be focused on the role of the inside leg while the outside leg has the workhorse role to play. And it can't can't play this role if either leg is too passive. they both need to be active as I see it. One complimenting the other, one serving the other.

I'll have to dig out my sopy of TCES. I'm anxious to hear what Rick has to say. It is always good. Later, RicB.
post #79 of 111
There's something in golf that my pro calls "posting" of the left leg on a right-handed golfer that reminds me a lot of what I'm doing with my outside leg in skiing. When one leg is like a post, the other can pivot around it. In skiing, by posting the outside leg, the inside pelvis, hip, and leg can pivot around it to make the necessary microadjustments to stance, that wouldn't be possible if the inside leg was posted too. I guess the outside leg makes possible the movements of the inside leg. It's synchronous, synergistic, symbiotic, all of that yin-yang.
post #80 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
When one leg is like a post, the other can pivot around it. In skiing, by posting the outside leg, the inside pelvis, hip, and leg can pivot around it to make the necessary microadjustments to stance, that wouldn't be possible if the inside leg was posted too.
So if the inside ski is not also posted, where is the center of the inside arc?

Was thinking about this a bit today.... exactly this notion, but different words.

Here's what you do: (You need a CD or coaster with a hole dead center.)

1) Make a Start and finish mark at the 12 and 6 o'clock positions on the CD
2) Draw the arc for the outside ski first, start at 6 and go to 12.
3) Reposition the CD to draw the arc of the inside ski. Now, your pencil should be at the 6 o'clock position, but the center displaced towards 12 o'clock.
4) Keeping the pencil at the 6 o'clock position, attempt to trace a line parallel to the outside ski. (You need to move and rotate the CD to do this.)
5) Periodically, trace the inside hole of the CD.

The track the inside hole takes represents the movement of the center of a circle about which the inside ski rotates.

Does anyone see a correlation to the instruction "pull the foot back" or is it just me?

Cheers!
post #81 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
Rick your rotational alignment is just another way of saying both femurs are rotating together isn't it?
This one is tricky to answer, Ric, as it depends on the frame of reference. Specifically, we must define what the rotation of the femur is in relation to. Is the rotation in relation to the hip socket? In relation to space? In relation to the skis? Etc. Each frame of reference could demand a different answer.

If your asking from a spatial reference point, as I think you are, my answer is yes (if you'll grant me a little wiggle room). As a turn is being carved the outside ski is dictating the nature of the arc, and therefor is ever altering the spatial orientation of the femurs (the direction they're facing at any particular point in time). While the relation between the femur, hip and ski may not be changing much during the riding of a specific edge angle, the femurs are rotating through space as the outside ski rides it's sidecut.

The goal is to keep the path of the inside ski in directional harmony with the arcing outside ski. My rotational tension is nothing more than a means of doing that when the edge angle of the inside ski does not allow for the production of an inside ski carve that would provide that necessary harmony. By simply tensioning (freezing) the inside leg/femur into a rotational orientation that's harmonic with the outside leg through the entirety of a carved turn, the inside ski is forced to breach its faulty carve and follow the directional lead of the carving outside ski.

This is in contrast to the achievement of inside/outside ski harmony through an active steering of the inside foot. Rotational tensioning is typically accompanied by a slight convergence of the inside and outside skis throughout the arc, which is seen in many WC shots. It's due to a lag effect in the tensioning; a bit of play in the inside ski before the tensioning overcomes its desire to track of course and drives it into compliance with the lead of the outside ski. This is why I asked for some wiggle room earlier.


Quote:
Steering the inside femur more than the outside so that the inside ski moves into a tighter radius, separating the feet, would mean that theyt are not rotating at the same rate wouldn't it? Where is the rotational alignment here? Not sure I understand this.
Yes, Ric, it would mean they're not rotating at the same rate (from any point of reference). The reason it doesn't make sense to you is because were talking about two separate concepts; one of keeping the skis in directional harmony through rotational tension while on a consistent edge angle,,,, and one of exploring how we vary lateral foot separation while changing edge angles.

This active steering of the inside foot I speak of, which changes the arc of the inside ski and gains additional foot separation, does indeed rule out rotational alignment while the active steering of the inside foot is taking place. It also disallows rotational tensioning, as that is non compatible with active foot steering. Rotational alignment and rotational tensioning come into existence later in the turn, once the desired edge angle and necessary foot separation to support that edge angle has been achieved.

Quote:
I still contend that one leg getting longer and one leg getting shorter is what creates and allows the on snow separation between the feet.
Completely agree.

What's in question here in this discussion is the nature of how that flexion/extension and lateral foot separation comes to be. Is the leg of a parallel inside ski flexed so as to pull the inside ski away from the outside ski,,, or does the inside foot steer the inside ski to track away from the outside ski and force the inside leg into a state of flexion?


Quote:
Is there some inside leg steering going on? there is always directional control going on, and is required as there gets to be less equal edge angle as the angle of inclination increases.

Ric, you're right on about the increased amount of directional compensation input required on the inside ski as edge angles increase.

Then the question becomes, what's the nature of that input as the edge angle is increasing, and does it vary from the input that occurs for the duration of the turn after the desired edge angle has been achieved?

It's complicated stuff, but my theory is that when edge angles are consistent, lateral foot separation is consistent, and rotational tension takes precedence. When edge angles are changing, so is lateral foot separation, and active foot steering plays a bigger role.


Quote:
Rick I'll certainly agree that we have a blending of things that happen just like in all skiing we do. Inside leg activty included of course, but I'm still not convinced that rotational alignment and/or inside leg steering is the only answer. Both of these can be done and the skier will still not get their hips down low to the snow effectively getting a high edge angle. Add in effective long leg short leg, and then it happens.
You bet Ric. I agree. There are multiple ingredients that go into the cake. Take out long leg/short leg and the CM will never get where it needs to be for big angle turns.
post #82 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
Fastman, I think of this as the outside leg needing the inside leg to rotate to keep the outside ski on edge. In other words, the actions of the outside leg depend on and may be constrained by the actions of the inside leg.
Nolo, I tend to look at the relationship between the outside and inside leg/ski in similar fashion. The outside directs the action, and the inside enables and follows. Fred and Ginger.
post #83 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
There's something in golf that my pro calls "posting" of the left leg on a right-handed golfer that reminds me a lot of what I'm doing with my outside leg in skiing. When one leg is like a post, the other can pivot around it. In skiing, by posting the outside leg, the inside pelvis, hip, and leg can pivot around it to make the necessary microadjustments to stance, that wouldn't be possible if the inside leg was posted too.
Very good stuff Nolo. I like that.
post #84 of 111
If a skier and expert like Nolo learns words like "circumduction" (I hope I remember the spelling well) which my old Webster doesn´t know you might imagine how difficult it must be for me.

I hope I´m getting it and I like the stuff. Great topic! I still need some time, reading and thinking - but that´s why I participate here.
post #85 of 111
Good answer Rick. As to the frame of reference? The original question was pertaining to what was happening physicaly in the skiers body, so I was focusing on body mechanics and frames of reference relative to the anatomical position, the three planes of movement, and body actions.

In this vien I would say that the skier rotates through space, around an axis, throughout the turn, which is a seperate issue to the skier's femurs rotating relative to the pelvis and/or anatomical position. Two different disscussions aren't they?

The convergance thing is hanging me up. Does there need to be a lag, or is this simply a matter of technique? My view at this point is that this is more technique than nessecity.

Again, if divergance is not rotaional alignment, then convergance is not rotaional alignment either. And if rotional alignment is the outcome of rotional tension, where does that leave us?

There is a bit of chicken and egg thing going on with the inside leg steerning and the leg getting shorter. I ask myself here, which is absolutely nessesary, and also what role does the outside leg getting longer play in this lateral foot seperation across the snow? For me it is not just the inside leg getting shorter, but the outside leg getting longer as well that gets the body into this dynamic position. Maybe I need a little fudge factor as well.

thanks for the post Rick. I'l think it over some more. Later, RicB.
post #86 of 111
RicB,
I've heard that relationship (long leg / short leg) described as a slinky (the kids toy) maneuver. Nolo's yin/yang analogy is another great way to say the same thing. I also like the way Rick said the input to the skis changes during a turn.
"It's complicated stuff, but my theory is that when edge angles are consistent, lateral foot separation is consistent, and rotational tension takes precedence. When edge angles are changing, so is lateral foot separation, and active foot steering plays a bigger role."
Most of my students do not reach the extreme edge angles that racers do, so the "rotational tensioning" phase is less intense and much shorter in duration. It is easy for them to block against the outside ski and become too static, so for that reason I have not emphasized this as much as I probably should.
Thanks, this certainly has helped me refine my description of this maneuver!
post #87 of 111
Checkracer,
RicB sent me running to my TCES with that term as well. It is a biomechanic's term for motion in a joint about several axis at once, with a single pivot point. There is also a joke in the definition by B. Barnes. " In the Jewish tradition, newborn males, uh no wait, wrong word..." So like Nolo, I wonder if I can use that word in polite company.
post #88 of 111
Isn´t there the concept of moving on the surface of a great ball in some martial arts (tai chi among others?)

Btw, "circumcision" is the expression I know. The studies of Latin were a nuisance but it´s a help.
post #89 of 111
I kinda remember that joke in the "Encylopedia". We use Flexion and extention all the time in our discussions, yet the strongest joint in our body, and one of the most important, the hip/leg joint does move in circumduction also. It moves routinely in multiple planes at the same time. Certainly in skiing it does. Sorry to make everyone go scrambling for the dictionary.

JASPR, I like these discussions foir the very same reasons. It makes me think through my own views and understanding, and I always learn from them.

Checkracer, I think the concept of the ball in tai chi means to hide your center from your opponent by constant redirection of the opponents force. Hard to poke a ball in it's center. It goes deeper than this but,,,

I think one of the reasons I find so much transfer from tai chi to skiing is related to hip/leg circumduction. The hip deliberately moving in control through multiple planes, while the core is stabilizing and transfering forces, as the feet remain rooted. Later, RicB.
post #90 of 111
This thread is what I expect from epicski--thanks for getting back in the groove, guys!
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