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Jackson Hole Tram to Close - Page 4

post #91 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhstroup
Are you sure?
Yes, by continuously skiing from the very top of the cirque (reached by using the surface cable tow) to the lowest point of the resort (sounds like Tony knows the name of it - Campground).
post #92 of 114
Tony doesn't have it quite right - I've got this year's map in front of me. The top of the Cirque poma lift is 12,510. From there you've to go down to the Hanging Valley Wall or one of the runs next to the High Alpine lift to Turkey Trot. From there you follow Creekside Run down the Two Creeks lift. The base of Two Creeks is 8104 (vs. 8223 for Campground).

While this may be 4,406 ft. it clearly doesn't match the terrain of Rendevous Bowl to the Hobacks (doesn't quite get you to the base at JH) or the other front faces. However, Hanging Valley Wall is certainly nice terrain. They held a couple of rounds of the extreme skiing competition there this year.
post #93 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si
While this may be 4,406 ft. it clearly doesn't match the terrain of Rendevous Bowl to the Hobacks (doesn't quite get you to the base at JH) or the other front faces.
Might this be part of the reason Jackson Hole can't justify $20 million on the Tram? Snowmass' mellower mix, with Aspen Highlands nearby for the thrill seekers, will likely draw a larger overall crowd.

Jackson Hole is a 'niche' resort for skiing purists! ..Is it possible management has realized they can't make their business model work in that niche?
post #94 of 114
"It is inconceivable to me that Jackson would abandon the top 1,000 vertical of Rendezvous and take the hit in image/marketing. The debate will be what kind of lift to put up there."

Tony,

They won't abandon that 1000 feet, they will simply put a t-bar the rest of the way - fewer wind holds!
post #95 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by uglymoney
Err... close the tram?

Not.

How about they give us free parking and a tram and a low lift rate. If it was possible in 1970, it is possible today. Or free parking and a tram and a small tram fee. If it was possible in the 80's it is possible today.

Personally, I think too many people have their hand in the cookie jar. Real estate developments dominate JH right now. Quick cash that is quickly extracted from the resort, with nothing reinvested.

Sad. Easy money always leads to sadness. Nobody has to actually do anything of value. Just sell, sell, sell. Vail revisited. Crap. This is truly sad. Nothing matters but cash. Were are all going to someday be buried in a box, or burned in a box, or otherwise dead. I'd rather die a poor man in an old tram than a rich man in a fancy casket.

Oh well. Screw em. I've got options. I have a freedom timeshare. I share my time with Ullr and my skis and my dog. We go where the snow is deep, the beer is cheap and the skiing is sweet. My first day of skiing was at JH in 1975. I am deeply connected to this mountain and its tram. Anything less than a retro replacement (capacity and ambience unchanged) is completely inexcusable.

I am offended by these developments. The tram had a 40 year lifespan 40 years ago so it is not like this snuck up on anybody. Obviously, somebody is looking to line their pockets. As always, follow the money. The rich get richer and the poor hike in order to avoid the rich. The rich ski hard groomers a few feet from their timeshares, the poor ski powder miles from their motel 6's.

Thank goodness they can't move JH to Mexico for production. Something tells me it would already be gone if the weather would cooperate.

nate
I agree with Nate 100%. This rampant capitalism is killing JH and the true soul of the skiing experience there. McMansions and Four Seasons Resorts have no place in the skiing experience. (Sorry Bob) Some type of cooperative effort could be a way of funding the retro replacement. Unfortunately, It's not the skids that have the money to invest. It would probably be the Saudi money from the Four Seasons or Vail will move in and make it another bling ski resort. Vail already has The Snake River Lodge at the base of JH. Their foot is already in the door. JH should move in the direction of Alta and keep it simple. When Paul McCollister came to this valley, he invisioned european style skiing. Without the tram, that vision is lost. Let's keep Paul's vision alive. Save the tram and the soul of Jackson Hole for future generations of skiers and riders.

Ski Hard
Peace
post #96 of 114
The tram is the icon of JH. People go there to see it, to ride it, to look down Corbett's, and to ski truly unique terrain. Intermediates go back home and brag that they survived it. The magic is in the tram, not the real estate, certainly not the terrain in the middle of the mountain. If you have had the opportunity to ride the tram and ski this terrain, you know about the magic.

If you closed Vails back bowls you would get another Keystone - no magic there. If you close the tram and don't replace it, JH will just be a cold, hard to get to mountain, with a short season, and no magic. It will die a rather quick death. This decision is a huge mistake.

With its age and icon status perhaps it would qualify as a historic engineering site and quailify for preservation grants. Or how about a totally free solution - a little legislation barring lawsuits associated with the use of the tram? After all it is the lawyers and our litigious society that is closing the tram, not its state of repair or 40 years of proven engineering.
post #97 of 114
What if closing the Tram, is management's admission to the reality that thrill seekers and die-hards cannot support their economic model?

...They tried, and now appear to be throwing in the towel at a time that will demote Jackson Hole to second tier status instantly. They have fudged the numbers on skiable lift served terrain, status of their overall lift served vertical in relation to other mountains on the continent, and overall skiable terrain at the area. Efforts have been made to balance the skiing experience on the mountain, but the 'magic' many speak of also turns a lot of paying customers off.

....None of it brought about the returns they hoped to eventually achieve, so it now appears they are ready to throw in the towel unless they can find a few 'suckers' to support their dream of financial stability amidst die-hard skiing purists.

I seriously doubt any 'regular' skiers that have been there, and had to deal with all the 'vagabonds' that show up in the Tram line on powder days, will feel much sorrow in its passing.
post #98 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by feallen
What if closing the Tram, is management's admission to the reality that thrill seekers and die-hards cannot support their economic model?

...Efforts have been made to balance the skiing experience on the mountain, but the 'magic' many speak of also turns a lot of paying customers off.

...

I seriously doubt any 'regular' skiers that have been there, and had to deal with all the 'vagabonds' that show up in the Tram line on powder days, will feel much sorrow in its passing.
Are you trolling or are you serious?

Plenty of people seem happy to spend money at JH. With houses at Teton Village selling in the millions and tens of millions of dollars, I think there is plenty of evidence people can and will pay to ski Jackson.

I'd sure love to know what "magic" turns anyone off at Jackson. The mountain has more approachable intermediate, advanced, and expert terrain than most people can imagine. If anything, the mountain as it is today is undersold to intermediates. And with just a little thinking, the way it is laid out works great for mixed groups. You can readily have folks skiing Moran Woods while basic intermediate friends ski the easier Casper lift runs. Etc., etc. I confess there are many, many resorts I have not skied, but the Lower Faces at Jackson provide the most approachable excellent bowl skiing I've ever seen - great for people moving into this class of skiing. The list goes on and on. So just what "magic" would turn anyone off?

As for "regular" skiers - I think I am one. Never had a problem with the "Tram crowd". Always been perfectly fine. And even "regular" skiers will feel the pinch if the Tram goes away. Unless you think the crowds will just vaporize, that'll be roughly a couple thousand more gondola and quad rides out of the base every day. I'm not looking forward to that.

I have no idea how or why JHMR has gotten themselves into this situation. And I have no idea how much of this is political/financial gamesmanship. I do know that you made some indefensible statements about the mountain and the people who ski it...
post #99 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by offpiste
McMansions and Four Seasons Resorts have no place in the skiing experience.
It would seem the market disagrees...
post #100 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by feallen
I seriously doubt any 'regular' skiers that have been there, and had to deal with all the 'vagabonds' that show up in the Tram line on powder days, will feel much sorrow in its passing.
That kind of arrogance, will get your after skiing drinks and nacos dumped in your lap, by your "vagabond-ski-bum-working-4-jobs-in-oder-to-ski-the-same-area-as-rich-jerks-like-you" waiter/waitress.

But, then again I hope your just making a rimshot comment about these arrogant types.....
post #101 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift
It would seem the market disagrees...
Point taken. I just feel that skiing isn't about ammenaties. It's about snow and trees and wind. It's about the choking deep powder line or high fivin with your friends after a rippin tree line. I don't need a Four Seasons Resort for that but, I would appreciate a ride to the top.

Ski Hard
Peace
post #102 of 114
No, I am just presenting the other side of the coin many of the purists here overlook.

The owners and management have made many attempts to steer mountain management into a more 'mainstream' mode, but the purist reputation and attitude has kept the bulk of the paying public in other ski areas. I agree the area provides many possibilities that lie untapped most of the time, but there are many alternatives scattered throughout the western mountains that better suit the needs of people.

As far as the real estate situation, I seriously doubt many in the high priced category fit the model of the purist adrenaline junkie lamenting the Tram demise. It is far more likely that the people most effected by this move are in the service community established to support the real estate boom in the area. .. Jackson Hole's real estate boom is more a result of shrinking options in a real estate boom, than the lure of a wild adrenaline adventure.

Jackson Hole is no longer unique, and these moves signify management's realization of their need to transform in order to compete. Names like Kicking Horse, Jumbo, Red Mountain, Revelstoke, Alta-Bird, Aspen Highlands, Silverton, Big Sky-Moonlight, and others are helping steer decisions at JHMR toward a more mainstream plan in order to survive.
post #103 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by feallen
What if closing the Tram, is management's admission to the reality that thrill seekers and die-hards cannot support their economic model?

...They tried, and now appear to be throwing in the towel at a time that will demote Jackson Hole to second tier status instantly. They have fudged the numbers on skiable lift served terrain, status of their overall lift served vertical in relation to other mountains on the continent, and overall skiable terrain at the area. Efforts have been made to balance the skiing experience on the mountain, but the 'magic' many speak of also turns a lot of paying customers off.

....None of it brought about the returns they hoped to eventually achieve, so it now appears they are ready to throw in the towel unless they can find a few 'suckers' to support their dream of financial stability amidst die-hard skiing purists.

I seriously doubt any 'regular' skiers that have been there, and had to deal with all the 'vagabonds' that show up in the Tram line on powder days, will feel much sorrow in its passing.
What is up with you? You sure toss around the labels pretty easy. Don't you? Maybe that "vagabond" will be the ski patroller that digs your butt out of an avalanche or splints your broken leg or finds the ski you've been digging for.

We are way off topic.
post #104 of 114
You miss my point!

These Tram decisions are all about generating revenue. Revenue generation at a large resort is tied to bringing in large groups of people who stay long enough to dump a 'lot' of money in the coffers to keep the place going. ..Local skiers just don't generate those kinds of dollars for resorts. ...Survival and prosperity for the resort and it's employees is tied to competing for vacationing skier days.

JHMR is evolving the way it has to in order to compete.

I hope they decide to replace the Tram with a lift similar to the Funitel at Squaw Valley; running from the old Tram station up to around Lupine Way where it enters Amphitheater, and then install a smaller tram to the top of the mountain from there. ...I think an installation of this nature would go a long way toward dissolving the 'us & them' situations vacationing visitors currently encounter.
post #105 of 114

Tram open for camps?

I know the tram is supposed to close to the general public after summer 2006 but do you think it will still operate for some or all of the camps that JH offers (ie Steep and Deep)? That would be quite a draw for getting people signed up for these camps.
post #106 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prosper
I know the tram is supposed to close to the general public after summer 2006 but do you think it will still operate for some or all of the camps that JH offers (ie Steep and Deep)? That would be quite a draw for getting people signed up for these camps.
Even employees (except patrol) are not going to be able to ride. All those people that have been at the resort for years or even decades, smelling feet, picking people up out of the snow, cooking food, tuning gear, running lifts, or keeping the trash picked up. Sorry, no more rides :

Steep and Deep and other camps are general public. Someone is teaching you how to ski. That is all.

Peace
post #107 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by offpiste
smelling feet
Smelling feet?? Now that is a bad job.
post #108 of 114
idiots i am so mad i dident get to go up it aaaaa
post #109 of 114
Jo's

You can go this season. They are taking it down next year - or so they say.
post #110 of 114
This just in from Ski Press Mag.:
"Teton Village, Wyo. (Ski Press)-Following Jackson Hole Mountain Resort’s June 2005 decision to close the Aerial Tram next October (2006), speculation has been running rampant on when and what will replace the legendary lift. JHMR released the following information about possible alternatives, and also a schedule on how the area plans to celebrate the Red Lady’s last year:

Two design alternatives including a tram replacement (JHMR’s preferred option) or a combination of 2 high speed lifts have surfaced as a long term solution. In tandem with this analysis, discussions are being held with Wyoming State officials regarding financial support for this massive project.

For this winter, 2005/06 lift operations will be normal. For the following winter (2006/07) during new lift construction, JHMR is committed to keeping Rendezvous Bowl and the terrain from the summit open as they are a critical part of the unique appeal of Jackson Hole.

It is anticipated that JHMR will announce exact operational details for the short term by late Fall 2005. JHMR officials are planning on an announcement regarding the long term tram solution in Spring/Summer 2006, following the conclusion of in-depth engineering analysis, internal financial planning alternatives and funding mechanisms.

Meanwhile for Winter 2005/06, the Aerial Tram will get a new look. JHMR Passholders who ride the Tram over 100 days will be recognized with a gift and the ability to ski an extra day after closing day. The tram will run extra hours at the end of the season and the old $2 tram surcharge coupons will once again be valid – for beer. For the last 10 days of the season Teton Village will be a non-stop festival with daily live music acts culminating in a free outdoor concert. Throughout the winter other specific tram events will take place."
post #111 of 114
Any more news on JH's plans???
post #112 of 114
i gotta wonder if with all the development going on around the tram tower and the value of the real estate that the tram tower sits on that maybe they are doing this to reclaim the real estate. i mean think about it. the buildings on either side of the tram tower have several storties and multiple shops in each story, but the tram tower has ticket offices and nick wilson's. in taking down the tram tower they could tear out the building and lease spots to a dozen or more businesses.
post #113 of 114
Bye bye tram!!!...I hate trams and don't care which ones .... JH, Snowbird, Cannon etc....reasons are too numerous and I'm short on time...
post #114 of 114

So long and thanks for all the great ski days ....

Sad to see it go .....

It is was a great trip to many great powder days .....

Helped me ski a million vertical feet in a couple of months .....

Access for four pines, fourshadows, cody and beyond .....

JH just won't be the Big One without the tram .....

Won't be able to make it back this year from OZ for a few turns on the bowl ...... enjoy it while you can
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