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Break it through: ride the skis - Page 4

And tomorrow, I'm going after the Tai-Chi skiing thread.
Later
GREG
Quote:
 Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier ...Someone should also employ Physicsman to calculate the exact distance traveled by each skier, and then have him calculate thier average speed over the distance... Just to prove how much more ground is covered and the higher speeds attained by carving. He likes that kind of stuff, so i bet if someone paid for him to attend the event, he would work it for free...
Hey, Greg - How ya doing? I haven't heard from you for a while - check your private messages.

Now, about me showing up a Fastman-TCS race, based on past dealings I've had with TCS, I suspect I'm not exactly his favorite skiing buddy. However, if someone wants to send me a ticket, and the race occurs after the semester is over next fall, I would be happy to stand at the finish line and applaud appropriately as Rick and every one of his racing students leaves TCS in the dust.

BTW, here's the formula I think you are looking for:

What is says is that the ratio of the actual distance covered by a racer going around gates to the distance covered by someone straightlining the course down the center of the offset gates is approximately equal to the square root of (one plus (two times the average gate offset divided by the average downhill spacing between two successive RH or LH gates)squared).

Thus, if the average offset of gates on a course is 100 feet, and successive RH (or LH) gates are 200 feet apart (in the direction of the fall line), then a racer will cover 1.41 times the distance covered by someone straightlining the course. In terms of speed, if these two skiers arrive simultaneously at the finish line, the one going around the gates will have had to go 1.41 times faster for this to happen. So, if the straightliner is going 50 km/hr, the person going around the gates will have to be going at least 70.7 km/hr on average in order to tie the straightliner.

All the best,

Tom / PM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick [/size][/font]
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick Exactly TCS!! Finally,,, you have arrived.

Or you finally see the light?

Quote:
 This was the whole purpose behind my challenge; to help you come to understand the real limitations of your technique. Now, from your statement above I see that I've been successful in that effort.

Baloney, you were challenge me for a race to show off your conceited little knowledge, and failed miserably.

Quote:
 What you say above is very correct. When taking a straight line down the mountain the advantages of carving are not as glaring as when turns across the falline are introduced. You are very wise to now recognize and acknowledge the clear advantage (in terms of speed, control and efficiency through a defined line) that carving holds over your flatboarding. You definitely would have been at a very unfair disadvantage had this race taken place.

Not that you would agree with me, soon you are even going to use my words to make your argument. The only advantage that carving turn has is it turns without losing [much] speed, but the caveat is it has to keep turning to maintain that speed, which nullifies all the speed advantage gained during the turn. Flatboarding is not just "turn on demand," but also going straight as well. (Did you say somewhere that a shaped ski cannot be kept going straight?)

Quote:
 Congrats, TCS. Humility is an admirable trait. Your a bigger man for it.

And you sounded like a juvenile fox barking as it run back to its foxhole.

Quote:
 No wise and knowledgeable man would race under such a big disadvantage. I'm glad I didn't have to take your money to help you come to understand or acknowledge flatboardings limitations.

Wise it is, thanks for showing us the limitation of carving turn.

Know your limit, then you may not see the limit.

Quote:
 And by the way. No hard feelings, and if we get to ski together this winter what do you say you and I go ahead and take that Chinese downhill run down some nice, steep, black slope,,, just for the fun of it.

Sure thing.

IS
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick Sorry Jack and Disski. Let me see what I can do here.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick Hey TCS, in our Chinese DH want to make it for \$1000, just to add some interest and fun? The side betting is now open.

Sounds a lot interest out there, with people throwing \$100 around here for nothing, why don't we sell tickets for it, save you a lot aggravation to have to put up the money up front?

Quote:
 And on the logistics side; we'd better have the slope closed to the public when we do this. When I come through no one will want to be in my way.

Yup, though you would go high speed and make wide swing turns on the slope, but the patroller may only stop me for straightlining.

IS

lightweight

Running from a challenge that demands that you ski. Racing, DH or SL is about performing .....

Never mind taichi, you couldn't turn around a fixed point if you had to. Your ski videos are about as pathetic as your "forms".

Traditional forms ... heck, those are "borrowed Japanese kata (with added sidekick), taught in a Japanese gi and you refer to yourself as "sensei", your traditional grandfather would .... is there anything that you do that is real?

"Stolen" old Austrian techniques with your hands swinging akimbo is "taichi skiing".

You are to skiing, what Lada is to automobiles.
You're a trip TCS.

You flat out refuse (cower) to race a format in which you finally admit your technique puts you at a disadvantage, yet when I agree to race you in the format of your choice, one that you think gives YOU an advantage, you still keep talking Shat.

Enough with the posturing and the BS junior, just bring it to the hill.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by taichiskiing Sounds a lot interest out there, with people throwing \$100 around here for nothing, why don't we sell tickets for it, save you a lot aggravation to have to put up the money up front?
That's OK, TCS. I don't mind putting the money up front. And I'm not out to make money off those who would like to witness our showdown. Come one, come all, to see for no charge how carving stacks up to flatboarding.

And to all who wish to place side bets; I will cover any bets for those who want to bet on TCS but can't find any takers to bet on me.

TCS, will you do the same? Will you cover the bets for people who want to bet on me but can't find any takers to bet on you?
Take home lessons from this thread expressed using the "deep philosophy" of the Werner Heisenberg school of martial logic :

* Toad who fights tiger by penging is fool. Toad should run.

* Toad who fights 10 tigers by penging is 10 times a fool.

* Small toad who pengs at everyone is to be pitied.

Tom / PM

PS - "Penging" = To inflate like a toad before a fight.

the way of the mountain

Taichi insists that he is pure and in harmony with the the way of the Tao.

He wants to run on a groomer? He does not want to go around artificial barriers such as gates.

He wants to be at one with the mountain.

Perhaps the setting should be closer to natural.

In a glade. With trees. At one with the natural way.
Shouldn't this be in the humor forum, oh right, it already is. Carry on. :
Quote:
 Originally Posted by taichiskiing Hmm... ok, here's what you do "specifically." Stand on the floor with two feet flat and parallel, and "drop" your knees down and forward as though you are skiing. To do a "slipping left turn" is to "braking" the speed on the left ski. Now move your left foot forward about half of the "foot" on the outside (little toe) side edge of the foot (scrape the floor and hold); now the left foot is no longer flat on the floor nor parallel to the right foot, when on the ski, it would start to brake the speed the ski. Like a tank, the faster track push the tank turns, the skis set turns left with left ski slipping.The simpler classic view of the functionalities of the [ski] parts are the tip, middle, and the tail. The tip, from the toe binding to the tip end, is the "runner" and the tail, from heel binding to tail end, is the "braker"; that is, move the tip down the ski runs, and move the tail down, the ski brakes. And in turning, weight on the middle the ski carves; weight on the tip, the ski slips, and weight on the back, the ski skids.HIH, IS
Take a closer look at TCS's description of a "slip" turn, bearing in mind that he professes to use "minimal" corrections to the line. He probably is not skidding the edge much at speed. It seems to me that even if he doesn't know it, he is actually pressuring the front edges of his ski's(though he is concentraing on the outside edge of the inside ski, he is letting the other "run"), using a very slight inside tip lead and employing the inside ski to help out (using both skis). Given what he says he is doing or trying to do, he could easily get it wrong and carve a pretty mean high speed turn.

The student often thinks he knows what he is doing.
Ghost, did you see his video???

If this description is supposed to be representative of the skiing in that video, then any errors in his written description in respect to what he's actually doing on snow do not obscure carving. There is no carving taking place in that video. Not even a smidgen.

Your speculation could only be correct if he were attempting to describe a separate technique from what he provided to us as a video example of TCS/flatboarding.

But then, why would he do that? Why would he describe a different technique? The TCS/flatboarding in his video, which he seems so proud of, is the ultimate of techniques, isn't it? At least that's the pathetic bill of goods he's trying to sell to his unfortunate Asian students at his ski school in the wilderness.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick Ghost, did you see his video??? If this description is supposed to be representative of the skiing in that video, then any errors in his written description in respect to what he's actually doing on snow do not obscure carving. There is no carving taking place in that video. Not even a smidgen. Your speculation could only be correct if he were attempting to describe a separate technique from what he provided to us as a video example of TCS/flatboarding. But then, why would he do that? Why would he describe a different technique? The TCS/flatboarding in his video, which he seems so proud of, is the ultimate of techniques, isn't it? At least that's the pathetic bill of goods he's trying to sell to his unfortunate Asian students at his ski school in the wilderness.
I think I saw a video of some ballet skiing, and maybe another one of him going down what looked like a green circle run (maybe blue, hard to tell with the flattening effect of the camera).

Judging by either video, I think your \$10 000 is a pretty safe bet, but I would not assume that it's the best he can do. It could be quite an old video. It could also be an exagerated version to demonstrate the "slipping", but I think you're probably right.

Still, it's something to think about: a little too much pressure and not enough un-parallelism on that inside ski and it grabs, an instant recovery and weight shifts automatically back to outside ski, and given sufficient athletic ability, he's carving. The forces applied on a carving set of skis and the body position required to achieve it could easily be arrived at by balancing as best as you could on that outside ski while shifting your weight to the inside, and using a little bit (but not too much) of that inside little toe edge.

Kind of like Miaggi teaching the kid to "paint the house" "wash the floor" and
"wax the car"

Many masters may claim to know nothing, but few do, and none really do.
Ghost, from everything I've read from him if he did slip and end up carving at any point he would consider it a grievous occurrence.

I'm not concerned about the race, Ghost. In fact I'm greatly looking forward to it. Been a while since I've had the opportunity really drop the hammer (you know, coaching and all). Downhill was always my best/favorite event, I lived for the next chance to strap on the long boards and point em down, and for a couple years that's all I did, just DH. Now I'm finding that the anticipation of even a hoaky event like this is stirring those old embers again, awakening that wild child side of me that would take over and possess me during DH's. I'm sure anyone who raced DH and loved it knows what I'm talking about here. DH is a sport apart.

Anyone who comes to see this race is going to see some speed. Even in DH racing gates are present to control speed and maintain a safe line of travel down the piste. With no gates even a moderate groomed blue slope could put our speeds up in the mid 70's (with suits). If we go groomed black they could approach 90mph. And this will be dangerous because the slope will have no protection (netting) in place. Any mistake at these speeds could mean death. Seriously!

The problem may be getting a hill to do this on. No Resort would facilitate such an event, and it would be dangerous, stupid, and even criminal to do this on a hill not cleared of the public. If anyone has any ideas how to facilitate this I'm all ears. Anyone have an old patrol jacket, rope, and a trail closed sign we could borrow for about 5 minutes?

And by the way, any EpicSki Bears attending the event are invited to the post race party. I'll be buying. All the pizza and weisse beer you can consume until the money I win from TCS runs out. Just pray this old fart doesn't pull a Bill Johnson.
I hear ya!
I've got just the place, Rick. Turner Mountain, near Libby, MT: http://wintermt.com/dhski/turn.htm The entire mountain can be rented for \$1,000/day. (Check out the percentage of expert runs...)
That would make a nice venue actually. You could even split up the three routes down the mountain over several different trails and paths each time... allowing for a different race each time. Some nice speed and twisting trail changes could be had, as well as some very nice pitches, and flats.
This could be the site.
Later
GREG
NO good. He could just take chans run or upper main almost straight top to bottom.
You need something more like this. http://www.skimaps.com/map2636
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ghost NO good. He could just take chans run or upper main almost straight top to bottom. You need something more like this. http://www.skimaps.com/map2636
TCS would still lose.
I think that a pure "Chinese downhill" format would leave far too much to chance.

A lot of the talk on the subject of the head-to-head race seems to point to a supercross/skiercross type of course: very loosely defined, but still following a set group of trails down the hill. Following the same set of trails is paramount, as this challenge should pit the two techniques against each other on essentially identical terrain, conditions, etc.

Turner Mountain could be a good place, so long as a "course" is laid out that will provide an adequate variety of challenges.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nolo I've got just the place, Rick. Turner Mountain, near Libby, MT: http://wintermt.com/dhski/turn.htm The entire mountain can be rented for \$1,000/day. (Check out the percentage of expert runs...)
That could work Nolo, good suggestion. It would be perfect; the slopes we close and use for the race would be totally up to us. What do you think about having an epic day there? Epicski members rent the mountain for a day or weekend, nothing but bears on the slopes, and the race between TCS and me could be a part of the get together.

What do think folks? Any interest? TCS?

Songfa, my perception of a Chinese DH is that it's just a mass start dash down a particular slope. No gates to dictate line, competitors just take whatever line they want, and first to the bottom wins. That works for me.

No, it should not be a test of who can pick the fastest trail. We should be simultaniously racing the same trail.

Hey TCS, you still out there? I'm not just wasting my time here, am I? You're not going pussy out again like you did last time with the gates race, are you?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by slider TCS would still lose.
I think so too
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick That could work Nolo, good suggestion. It would be perfect; the slopes we close and use for the race would be totally up to us. What do you think about having an epic day there? Epicski members rent the mountain for a day or weekend, nothing but bears on the slopes, and the race between TCS and me could be a part of the get together.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick What do think folks? Any interest? TCS?

Sounds fun, actually I think is great if you can make it happens.

Quote:
 Songfa, my perception of a Chinese DH is that it's just a mass start dash down a particular slope. No gates to dictate line, competitors just take whatever line they want, and first to the bottom wins. That works for me.No, it should not be a test of who can pick the fastest trail. We should be simultaniously racing the same trail.

Actually, I'll track your line if you are fast, and pass you on straightlining on the last leg.

Quote:
 Hey TCS, you still out there? I'm not just wasting my time here, am I? You're not going pussy out again like you did last time with the gates race, are you?

IS
Rick, smear him on the hill like a bug on a windshield. He deserves an old fashioned @ss kicking at this point. And... I think that just about everyone here would be willing to step up to administer such a disciplinary measure. He is going to follow you and pass you straightlining... haha... assuming he can keep up in the first place (I followed Rick a few times before practice... no simple task - and the guy was just out for an evening teaching session). TCS, the only thing I can recommend for you now is practice. You might want to check out the "summer" thread in the instruction forum. You're going to need all the help you can get.
Later
GREG
TGR would have fun with him and Rick........

Awesome. Loser pays the \$1,000 rental fee. Maybe each guest could put some money (\$30?) in the pot as a prize for the winner. Three runs is an odd number. How about four runs, each competitor names the conditions for two of the races (summit to base any route, or stay on a particular run, or a set course - gates). Add the percentage difference in time for each run (so that run/course that takes longer to complete will not be weighted more heavily than shorter course. eg. if Rick wants to set a slalom). A racer could choose to have the same run for both of his choices. Or choose/set two different runs. Maybe allow each competitor to drop the results of one run, leaving the results of the remaining two runs to determine winner.

Some good might actually come out or this tedious, rancorous debate, a big Epicski party. Both of you should put up \$1000 now so the slope can be reserved (The winner gets his grand back plus take the pot). I'll be there if this goes off!
I don't know about you guys and girls, but turning on skies whether by pivot to skid or carving ( I prefer carving over skidding for the most part BTW ) is what one must do while skiing to be efficient in all terrain. To use one and not the other is IMHO, not efficient. TCS in an earlier post himself mentioned that flatboarding required the skier to role the ankles. Rolling the ankles puts the skis on edge, no? IMO, flatboarding is for flatheads.----Wigs
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