EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › Do I need a stone grind on my Metron B5's?
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Do I need a stone grind on my Metron B5's?

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
I know, I know, the Atomic concave base thing has been done to death already - I just spent the last couple of hours going through the search archives

My 04/05 model B5's were new at the end of March. I skied them out of the wrapper & they've had one shop done wax & edge (1 & 3 of course!).

I bought all my own tuning gear a few weeks ago & have been busy tuning away & have probably done about 18 pairs by now so I feel that I've got the technique battened down.

I was about to start my first ever home tune on my B5's this morning & I expected the bases to be a bit concave at the tip & the tail when I used my Beast true bar.

However, this wasn't the case. Both skis are identical in that there really isn't any concavity in the shovel but then the concavity starts around the 'M' in the Atomic lettering & continues for the whole length of the ski, including the tails, at a depth in the centre of 2-3 thou. In addition there's only just a 1/8-1/4" of p-tex on each edge is actually flat.

I reckon that they probably do need a stone grind - not to fully flatten the ski but to at least increase the flat width in the central portion of the ski & to increase the flat area of p-tex edges in the tip & the tail to 3/4 to 1" say.

Am I right?

Also, how do you Atomic tuners out there (Atomicman/Betaracer?) accurately base bevel the concave areas as I'm using a SVST base bevel guide whose 1 degree 'riser' plate is running in the concave dip in the base which then alters the angle to a lot less than 1 degree. It currently means that my file/stone is actually cutting the p-tex adjacent to the edge & not the metal.

:
post #2 of 21
nope, just leave em, except if they feel very,very nervous when going straight. I have a race snowboard with 4mm concavity, it rocks on the edge, as the whole core is unflat, and provides exceptional stability. When not riding on an edge, its a beast, it just wont do it, but always catch an edge.

If it were a 215cm DH ski, completely different anwer, but for a B5 leave it.
post #3 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyderjon
I know, I know, the Atomic concave base thing has been done to death already - I just spent the last couple of hours going through the search archives

My 04/05 model B5's were new at the end of March. I skied them out of the wrapper & they've had one shop done wax & edge (1 & 3 of course!).

I bought all my own tuning gear a few weeks ago & have been busy tuning away & have probably done about 18 pairs by now so I feel that I've got the technique battened down.

I was about to start my first ever home tune on my B5's this morning & I expected the bases to be a bit concave at the tip & the tail when I used my Beast true bar.

However, this wasn't the case. Both skis are identical in that there really isn't any concavity in the shovel but then the concavity starts around the 'M' in the Atomic lettering & continues for the whole length of the ski, including the tails, at a depth in the centre of 2-3 thou. In addition there's only just a 1/8-1/4" of p-tex on each edge is actually flat.

I reckon that they probably do need a stone grind - not to fully flatten the ski but to at least increase the flat width in the central portion of the ski & to increase the flat area of p-tex edges in the tip & the tail to 3/4 to 1" say.

Am I right?

Also, how do you Atomic tuners out there (Atomicman/Betaracer?) accurately base bevel the concave areas as I'm using a SVST base bevel guide whose 1 degree 'riser' plate is running in the concave dip in the base which then alters the angle to a lot less than 1 degree. It currently means that my file/stone is actually cutting the p-tex adjacent to the edge & not the metal.

:
I use a TOKO base beveler for that very reason!

http://www.reliableracing.com/winter...&category=2000

It spans the entire width of the ski and also seems like it bevels less than an SVST. (Less likely to over bevel)

How are your skis skiing? Any symptoms that are bothering you?

If not leave em' alone!!!!! If they are grabbv or unpredictable or don't roll smoothly on & off edge then you should grind them. But I would be carefull about the shop taking off too much material. Discuss it with whoever you are going have do them first.
post #4 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
I use a TOKO base beveler for that very reason!

http://www.reliableracing.com/winter...&category=2000

It spans the entire width of the ski and also seems like it bevels less than an SVST. (Less likely to over bevel)

How are your skis skiing? Any symptoms that are bothering you?

If not leave em' alone!!!!! If they are grabbv or unpredictable or don't roll smoothly on & off edge then you should grind them. But I would be carefull about the shop taking off too much material. Discuss it with whoever you are going have do them first.
I'm really pleased with the skis & they don't have any of the dodgy symptoms that you describe so I'll probably hold on the grind.

Thanks for the advice re the Toko guide, I can see the benefit of it spanning the full width of the ski.

If the slight concave base is ok then, how do I scrape of the excess wax in the bottom of the 'dip' if the scraper is running on the outer edges. Or doesn't it matter?
post #5 of 21
Thread Starter 
BTW, I tried Reliable Racing for the Toko guide but they won't accept credit card payments from outside the US & want to charge me an extra $20 for me to send a wire transfer (WTF?). I didn't get this from either Race Werks or the Race Place when I placed orders with them recently.

Have gone with Artech who are also $9 cheaper than UnReliable Racing for the same item.
post #6 of 21
Scrape as best you can, then brush out the low spots with maybe a horsehair brush. Or a rotobrush.
post #7 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Scrape as best you can, then brush out the low spots with maybe a horsehair brush. Or a rotobrush.
Great, I finally get to use my horsehair brush. Wondered what it was for. Thanks for the help.
post #8 of 21
Grip the scraper with your fingers around the ends, thumbs pressing in the middle, bowing the scraper as needed. Save the horsehair for brushing flouro overlays.
post #9 of 21
Don't bow your scraper. Bad idea. The scrapers I use are too thick and stiff to bend anyway.

If you don't want to use stiff horsehair (9mm) then use a nylon as stated on the Beast waxing page.

Here is The Beast waxing page:

Notice after scraping they suggest nylon or horsehair!

http://www.ski-racing.com/waxing.htm
post #10 of 21
Atomicman, why is bowing the scraper a bad idea? I think it works well to remove excess wax from the concave area of the B5s. If the scraper you are using is too think to bend just get a thinner one.
post #11 of 21
I don't need one to bend and don't want it! Just scrape with a nice sharp flat scraper and brush out any excess missed by the scraper. You don't wnat to be scraping any base off.

I use Dominator, SVST & Ttoko scrapers. All too thick to bend! Why do they make them like this? So they don't bend!!!!!

Scrape & then brush is a better course of action!
post #12 of 21
first why 1 and 3? why not 1 and 1 or 1 and 2 for that "all mountain" ski. You dont need a 1 and 3.

secondly, why dont you just grind the base down. you will have a much flatter base in preperation for tuning.

thirdly, if you have that much wax that needs to be removed, then YOU DEFFINATLY SHOULD GET A GRIND!!
post #13 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by sars
first why 1 and 3? why not 1 and 1 or 1 and 2 for that "all mountain" ski. You dont need a 1 and 3.

secondly, why dont you just grind the base down. you will have a much flatter base in preperation for tuning.

thirdly, if you have that much wax that needs to be removed, then YOU DEFFINATLY SHOULD GET A GRIND!!
Why not a 1 & 3??? it is the manufacturer's recommended tune!

The ski skis great with a 1/3. You give up nothing on soft snow and gain better edge hold on hard snow. The idea that a 3 side edge doesn't last as long as a 1 or 2 is a myth.

If the skis have no adverse symptoms, there is absolutely no reason to grind them.

Many wider shoveled/tail skis have concavity in those areas and a nice flat/sharp scraper does not remove the wax from those ares. You just brush it out.

Once you set the initial base bevel you should not be filing the base edge anyway. Consequently, a new grind will not improve the quality or ability to set your side edge bevel.
post #14 of 21
a 3 does not last as long and is not needed with a ski that wide. Sorry.
post #15 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by sars
a 3 does not last as long and is not needed with a ski that wide. Sorry.
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!
post #16 of 21
no, difference in opinion, not wrong!!
post #17 of 21
No I am dealing in FACT, not opinion. Since I own the ski & ski it with a 1 & 3, in fact all of our skis have a 1 & 3 except a couple of slaloms I currently have tuned at 1 & 4.

The 3 or 4 side edges stay plenty sharp (Shouldn't you really diamond stone your side edge after each day of skiing anyway?)

Your comment about the you don't need a 1/3 because of the width of the ski??????

What does the tip & tail width have to do with the side edge bevel?

The B5 is not a 'POW" ski it is an all-mountain ski that excels at hardpack.

For that matter I have a 1/3 on our Sugar Daddys. (23mm wider at the waist than the B5)

So I guess you opinion is wrong!

Have you even skied on the B5 Metron?
post #18 of 21
Yes actually I have skied the B5 Metron.

You can put whatever bevel you want on any ski and to say a 1 and 3 is correct is ubsurd. There is no correct it is a matter of feel. Since you have skied on them you should know. Also when talking about width of a ski, generally you are speaking of waist width, not tip and tail measurements. Wider skis overall, need less bevel on the edge.

I know the Metron is an "all mountain". Did I say it was a powder ski? I dont think so. You seem to be tuning it like a race ski, you dont need to because it is a wider ski overall that performs in all conditions.

The fact that you waste your time putting a 1 and 3 on Sugar daddy's is crazy. WHY????
post #19 of 21
How can my opinion be wrong?

Are you saying that all metrons need to be tunned at 1 and 3 to perform properly?
post #20 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by sars
How can my opinion be wrong?

Are you saying that all metrons need to be tunned at 1 and 3 to perform properly?
Yes!
post #21 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by sars
Yes actually I have skied the B5 Metron.

You can put whatever bevel you want on any ski and to say a 1 and 3 is correct is ubsurd. There is no correct it is a matter of feel. Since you have skied on them you should know. Also when talking about width of a ski, generally you are speaking of waist width, not tip and tail measurements. Wider skis overall, need less bevel on the edge.

I know the Metron is an "all mountain". Did I say it was a powder ski? I dont think so. You seem to be tuning it like a race ski, you dont need to because it is a wider ski overall that performs in all conditions.

The fact that you waste your time putting a 1 and 3 on Sugar daddy's is crazy. WHY????
They ski better. Again the 3 degree makes no real noticeable difference in Powder but when you get on the groomed, which we must do even on Powder days, they ski much better.

And Atomic factory recommended tune is a 1 & 3 on all of their skis. I must assume Atomic has spent lots of time testing their equipment.

The B5 skis best with a 3 degree side edge!

No waste of time. They all ski better. Ask anyone on the forum who ski on it what they think.

The reason I mentioned the sugars is exactly that they have a wide waist, not just tip & tail like the metron.

No you didn't say the B5 metron was a powder ski, but you eluded to it by commenting on wide ski not needing more edge bevel.

PS: My R11's are also 1 & 3.
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