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Atomic SL9 or GS9? - Page 2

post #31 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by former_racer
forgot to put this in the other post... Atomicman-they are not actually the same ski, the flex is quite a bit different. Atomics are also well known for making the lines very specific to event. It also depends on the ability of the girl, and the coach as to whether she's learning to crossblock. Some coaches prefer to teach tight lines and crossblocking to J4's and the J5's that are really good. My former coach came to my team from the Women's World Cup circuit and was against women under 13 running SL because it's bad for their hips. He obviously allowed all of us to still run the courses, but there is no way he would have let us do it on skis intended for a GS course and vice versa. It's not the dimensions that are as important as the difference in the flex and the way they are made. The SL skis are designed for quicker turns and the GS are designed for wider turns. If a racer uses skis too bid for the SL the results will not be as good because it will be more difficult to make the tight quick turns. This can also lead to bad habbits that the coach will have to deal with next year. It's just not worth it to use GS skis on SL courses.
i don't believe that this level of junior ski at that size is any different.

I know all about flex and certainly understand the difference between a SL & Gs skis flex. I have 2 boys that have raced for years. I think you are getting way to wrapped around the axle about an 8 year old soon to be 9 that weighs 75lbs. You sound like a little league parent for god sake.

Come on! Crossblocking for kids that age does nothing but cause lots of rotation and reaching. Most of the kids ski around the gates in slalom just like in GS at that age anyway. if they are trying to crossblock they are skidding their turns even worse than normally.

She only weighs 75lbs and is not even 5' tall. Again year before last my 170lbs. J3 14 year olds skied SL on a 150cm SL11 and GS on a 170GSX. This girl weighs 75lbs. pounds.
post #32 of 49
have you ever raced? Was your coach an ex-world cup women's coach? No? well then stop giving bad advice to a guy that can actually increase the risk of injury for his daughter. I raced from the time I was 6 till the time I was 18 and went to Buddy Werner all years I was eligible and JO's as well. I think I probably know a little better than you that the longer the skis used with SL the more dangerous it is because she increases her risk of catching a tip and getting hurt. If she uses too short of skis on a GS course, she can also get hurt. Basically this guy needs to be taking advice from his daughter's coach, not anyone here because every kid is different and it's not just all about weight and height, it's also about ability and strength, and if you don't understand that, then you've obviously not been paying attention to the sport itself. I never said anything about using two different kinds of skis for faster results, but more on safety and what's appropriate for her age and ability, so if you think I sound like a little league parent, then you're an idiot and obviously don't understand how easy it is to get hurt using the wrong kind of equipment and you're lucky your kids weren't hurt with your ignorance.
post #33 of 49
I am probably naive about modern day equipment requirments, but I am going to dig back to my Buddy Werner leage days. At my house I was lucky to get 1 good set of equipment each year. Back then a good fitting pair of boots was most important. I skied the same pair of skis for fun/ Race practice and Races. SL and GS courses were not much differnt. They don't let little kids runem out much. When your kid gets to be 12, 13 years old and proves to have potential, The rich parents will give you their kids slightly used high tech gear!! Skis // Binding // clothes // whatever. I got alot of good stuff given to me when I was 13 to 16 years old. Anyway If memory serves I was happier on familiar equipment regardless of what I was doing on the snow. My only bad memory was having to practice on the same SL course after the big kids. The ruts seem to a 9 year old seem like giant mogles (You just try to survive)

MTT
PS: I think its great that you are putting this much effort into making your childs ski / race experience as comfortable as possible. ( 1 ski // only ski!! No excuses)
post #34 of 49
extremecarver:

Do you think the faster times on the grown up ski's was all about the ski/ Or maybe a bit of psycological modivation, (Kid thinks to himself) I am on real fast Real GS racing ski's!! And proceeds to ski real fast?>?

MTT
post #35 of 49
Actually, from what I remember of the GS9 and SL9 junior skis, the construction and flex was almost, of not completely, identical. While a step up from the "Race" series of junior skis, they didn't closely resemble the adult lines like the junior GS11/SL11.

Most coaches I know want their kids of that age on one good carving ski, properly sized for the athlete. Most kids skis of those lengths have plenty of sidecut to negotiate even the tightest of SL courses. Kids with 2 pairs of discipline-specific racing skis at that age either are VERY good or very spoiled. Take your pick.
post #36 of 49
Yellow skis are faster than red skis! In a study by Dartmouth ... jus kiddin!

Red or Yellow .... same dimensions but what about the flex?

Keep in mind that in "open" late season races the "real deals" will go like hell and then sluff through the last gates. Could that be why some of the kids times were close?
post #37 of 49
@MTT, no it definitely wasn't only mental. Those kids I watched (Skihauptschule Windischgarsten, OÖ) train 6 days a week in winter. It's a boarding school, if you look at their schedule - on their website, you might think that this happens in former Soviet Union, they have to get up at 06:00, and their school and training doesn't stop before 21:00, with minor breaks in between. They tried all sorts of skis, and were not told the results, before finishing the discipline (=having tried through at least 4 to 5 pairs, in SL and GS). It really was an impressive test. The coaches were sometimes surprised too, but the result is that next year a lot of 13 years old, will be on the 176cm ski, while the oldest 15 years old (they have to change school) will definitely use adult race skis.

The length did pay out. The trend seems to go to have longer, but softer skis. BTW - all the skis available where fast, after you handed them back in, they were mostly given a new tune (diamondstone and cold wax). For slalom they did not go up to adult length and kept quite short skis, and in

SuperG, well can't really remember, but there wasn't a big choice, the skis were not shorter than 2m and only the oldest were allowed to try them (the course was at least for me too much, the jump at the entry into the steep was at least 30m). (in Austria SuperG and Downhill training, is often not done before 15 years of age, 6-7 years ago they put 10-12 years olds on the Streif racing down the adult line, but thats over now AFAIK, maybe they start earlier in Western Austria, but then in eastern Austria we have not many runs with more than 500-600m vertical)
post #38 of 49
I am a former racer. I was coached, at various points, by more than one former World Cup racer (and, indeed, though not a lot, by an Olympic medalist).

Frankly, though, that's not very relevant to knowing what you're talking about, as some of the posts from various other people above demonstrate.

Here's some information from the websites for a couple different racing programs in the Pacific Northwest (one of which, for all we know, may be the one the kid in question is at):

We do recommend for mitey-mites that you go with a general junior race ski that will work for both slalom and giant slalom.

How many pairs of skis should a kid have?

For J5 and J6 age racers, one good pair is usually fine. As racers approach the J4 level, a pair of skis for slalom and a pair for giant slalom is the norm, but not required.

-----

We have found that skis with a side cut from 8 – 11 meters in the correct length and flex are appropriate for five to eight year olds (J7’s, J6’s) and most nine to twelve year olds (J5’s and J4’s). We know that there are always exceptions. Kids who are already arcing into and at the top of the turn and kids who weigh in excess of 80 pounds may benefit from skis that fall outside these guidelines. Many of the top end junior racing skis and many all mountain skis fall outside the above guidelines. The reason is that many of the top junior SL and GS skis are relatively stiff, have less side cut, and require more technical skill to arc. Although these skis perform very well for an athlete who is already arcing their turns, they are more difficult to ski for someone who is learning to arc turns. We have attached a sizing chart from Fischer Skis that appears to work well for all brands. Also, for five to nine years old, and those new to racing (up to twelve years old), it is not necessary to have separate skis for Slalom and Giant Slalom. We also prefer that none of the kids use training skis unless they are the exact model and length of the ski they will be racing on.
post #39 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by former_racer
have you ever raced? Was your coach an ex-world cup women's coach? No? well then stop giving bad advice to a guy that can actually increase the risk of injury for his daughter. I raced from the time I was 6 till the time I was 18 and went to Buddy Werner all years I was eligible and JO's as well. I think I probably know a little better than you that the longer the skis used with SL the more dangerous it is because she increases her risk of catching a tip and getting hurt. If she uses too short of skis on a GS course, she can also get hurt. Basically this guy needs to be taking advice from his daughter's coach, not anyone here because every kid is different and it's not just all about weight and height, it's also about ability and strength, and if you don't understand that, then you've obviously not been paying attention to the sport itself. I never said anything about using two different kinds of skis for faster results, but more on safety and what's appropriate for her age and ability, so if you think I sound like a little league parent, then you're an idiot and obviously don't understand how easy it is to get hurt using the wrong kind of equipment and you're lucky your kids weren't hurt with your ignorance.
Get a clue, she is not even 9. what are you talking about? You keep talking like this kid is running Nor-Ams or something!


I have raced enough to know you are full of bull!

And excuse me, but our club now has 4 members on the "CURRENT" US ski team, Mr. "FORMER" racer. I happen to be around the coach that got them there & he was on the WC himself as a racer. He also coached my boys since they were J5's. So stuff all that bragging irrelevant crap where the sun don't shine! Also you didn't say how you finished at JO's or Buddy's?? Both my boys made JO's and Buddy's multiple times, so what.

I didn't have the opportunity to race as a kid!

Anyway all this nothing to do with this girl's skis or skiing!

Thank you SJ for a civil, completley logical explanation. Once again much better response than my emotional outbursts.

I just have a difficult time, having been through the ranks with my boys, taking 8-9 year old racing quite as seriously as former_racer.

Not to say it isn't important, but I have found where you finish as an 8-9 year old has negligible or no effect on where you are as J3, J2 or J1. I have also been told by former World cuppers, in retrospect,they feel their racing career didn't even start until they were about 20 years old. Everything before that was just "PRACTICE"

My GS ski is at about bridge of nose high, my slalom is just at my chin (FIS legal length by the way)

Just about the same place a 140GS & a 130 SL would hit this girl.
post #40 of 49
extremecarver:

Thanks for the further input on juniors using longer ski's.. I would have thought that the confidence inspired by the racing ski's would have played @ least a 50% role in the faster times. You are talking about (kids)? that are training and skiing @ a much higher level than I did in the age group. (I hope they are having fun)?? I grew up in an area where some kids ended up in special year round ski race// school programs (same with tennis) I run into a couple who have returned to the Tahoe area. They are not what I would call (Well rounded adults) not very happy people.

MTT
post #41 of 49
@MTT - they are the elite of Upper Austria, if they have fun? Don't know, some fun at least. IMO they are training so much, that they don't think about fun anymore, it's like going to work or school, it has ups and downs. I played table tennis from my age of 5 till 16 when I stopped; trained and played 3-4 hours a day, 6 days a week, from my age of 7. It was fun, but when I became 14 I lost the fun as training was becoming so hard. I think it will be the same for those kids too.

In Austria it seems to me that ski training is done like in Eastern Germany in former times. You start with many, many kids, give them good training and a lot of it. 10% or so are regarded as being able to achieve some medals, However 90% of them drop out cause to injuries, and of the 10% which last, at least 90% will not be good enough, mentally or practically. However the rest is good enough to dominate the Europe Cup, and a few will help the Austrian Team to dominate the WC.
post #42 of 49
I honestly believe this is the longest thread on kid's race skis I've ever seen.
post #43 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska Mike
I honestly believe this is the longest thread on kid's race skis I've ever seen.
Not like we've got anything better to do in June.
post #44 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ts01
Not like we've got anything better to do in June.
Trust me I'm done!
post #45 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Trust me I'm done!
Atomicman, remind me again what angles I should tune my Atomic edges to
post #46 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyderjon
Atomicman, remind me again what angles I should tune my Atomic edges to
1 Base & 3 side edge!
post #47 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Trust me I'm done!
I was just kidding re the angles but you didn't take the bait
post #48 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyderjon
I was just kidding re the angles but you didn't take the bait
I knew that!

So, What the hell are you asking me that again for?
post #49 of 49
lol
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