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post #31 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
unfortunately kids learn lying from peers and parents. and they learn it while they're still naive and impressionable, and it takes root and becomes second nature.
I'll argue that point with you Gonzo. I don't think that the ability to distort reality using language is a nefarious habit picked up from the unscrupulous who surround us. I'd have to look some things up to get specifics, but some of it comes as a result of the magical thinking and fine line between reality and fantasy that exists in the minds of very small children. They really DON'T know the difference sometimes between what actually "is" and what they "wish" were so. It's a brain development thing.

There was also some published data, that distorting reality with language was not a uniquely human trait. One of the signing gorillas - Koko I think - "lied" in ASL to avoid getting herself in trouble. I suppose you could argue that she picked that up from her human trainers, but it's still a fascinating concept.
post #32 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by teachskiljp
"or when sounded like /a/ as in neighbor and weigh"



Bonni is right, association is a very powerful thing. Little rhymes and sayings can be very helpful tools. I have many I use with my students. One I use in math is "Please excused my dear Aunt Sally" It is very helpful in learning the order of operations, p= parenthesis, e= exponents, m=multiplication, d=division, a=addition and s=subtraction.
Reminds me of electronics class in HS--

Easy as PIE P=I*E Power=current*voltage
Eat It Raw E=I*R (ohm's law) Voltage = current * resistance
And the tasteless of them all, the resister color code-

Bad
Boys
Rape
Our
Young
Girls
Our
Young
Girls
But
Violet
Gives
Willingly
Get
Some
Now

Which transalates to -- 0 Black, 1 Brown, 2 Red, 3 Orange, 4 Yellow, 5 Green, 6 Blue, 7 Violet, 8 Gray, 9 White, 5% Gold, 10% Silver, 20% No Band
post #33 of 58
Learn2Turn, there's some really GOOD (bad) Mnemonics for remembering anatomy and physiology too.

For remembering which type of nervous system involvement is crucial for the male sexual response...
Erection = parasympathetic
Ejaculation = Sympathetic
The Mnemonic?? ..... Point and Shoot
post #34 of 58
Ah, the old "MY kid is the smartest in the world" BS.

Wouldn't the world be a better place if parents didn't live vicariously through their kids?
The new "thing" that I've heard WAY too many times, in so many words:

"MY (son/daughter) is going to have it much better than I ever did, and I'm going to make sure of that by any means.": : :

Whatever happened to letting the little scrappers find out how to get ahead on their own? Is it better to have everything gotten for you by your "loving parents"? I'm thinking.....not.
post #35 of 58

Bonni, Gonz.

KIDS FIRST

remember who its for!
post #36 of 58
Barf.....it's for the parents, DUH!
post #37 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFRAU
I'll argue that point with you Gonzo. I don't think that the ability to distort reality using language is a nefarious habit picked up from the unscrupulous who surround us. I'd have to look some things up to get specifics, but some of it comes as a result of the magical thinking and fine line between reality and fantasy that exists in the minds of very small children. They really DON'T know the difference sometimes between what actually "is" and what they "wish" were so. It's a brain development thing.

There was also some published data, that distorting reality with language was not a uniquely human trait. One of the signing gorillas - Koko I think - "lied" in ASL to avoid getting herself in trouble. I suppose you could argue that she picked that up from her human trainers, but it's still a fascinating concept.
whomever you are "arguing" with, it ain't me!

you have misread my intent, and maybe it's my fault. my point is and always will be that adults GUIDE children, they rarely teach them anything. the guiding must be solid and unwavering, while encouraging creativity and reprimanding anti-social behavior to reinforce its impropriety.

that's why it's so danged hard to be a good parent.
post #38 of 58
mnemonic devices are for tests of memorization, and beyond that are totally worthless. they do not teach function, place, integration, etc.

the type of teaching that enables "high performance" (euphemism for high grades, an inflationary placeholder for REAL education) through mnemonic device isn't teaching anything valuable.

valuable education comes from integrated learning, not piecemeal memorization.
post #39 of 58
Is it not necessary to memorize (or if you don't like this word, RECALL) certain things in order to understand some things? It may not be hugely important, but would make things easier to BEGIN to learn.

Perhaps recalling the order of the Presidents would be a handy thing to have in your bag when learning about US history.........or the color code in electronics, until fully integrated, cuts down the time considerably while indentifying certain resistors (I used the BBROYGBVGWGSN for years until it was automatic.....a VERY valuable time saving MEMORIZATION).

I believe these little things are great tools in how we learn, and I wouldn't say they are not valuable.
post #40 of 58
Gonzo,

All mnemomics do is create a sort of Tab File in your brain - a heading under which to look when you are searcing for information. It doesn't mean that you don't know and understand the information. It just provides a quick reference so that you don't have to look in ALL the files to find what you want.

When you bonk your head the next time out, I'll make sure and NOT use the dirty mnemonic I learned for the 12 cranial nerves..... "What's wrong with you is that, that,.... thingy.... you know.... the thinger that connects to your whatsit"
post #41 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonni
Is it not necessary to memorize (or if you don't like this word, RECALL) certain things in order to understand some things? It may not be hugely important, but would make things easier to BEGIN to learn.

* * *

I believe these little things are great tools in how we learn, and I wouldn't say they are not valuable.
and, as I said, they are valueless.

I've never used one. Never will. Don't see the point. If you have to "memorize" to pass a test, you don't know the material. end of story.

might I remind you all that litigation is the ultimate oral examination, and if you really think a mnemonic can help you in such strains of intellect, you are sadly deluded.
post #42 of 58
I'm on the side that mnemonics are useless. My brain was never able to memorize random things, and this method never helped me in the least. I had to have meaning and reason.

Kids are an interesting lot, and yes, they can learn lying on their own, although it usually seems to be brought about by things that cause it (punishment for doing bad things, rather than punishment for lying and teaching right from wrong and positive reinforcement of good behavior vs negative reinforcement of bad behavior). This is usually a result of the fact that it seems quicker and easier for the parent to punish bad behavior rather than reinforce positive behavior. Then they wonder why their kids lie and misbehave all the time.

That said, kids can be guided, but they can also be taught. We have to teach them how to spell and some things that are more abstract. Especially in the pathetic attempt at education that is our public skool [sic] system where there is so much BS and forced learning and a huge percentage of the teachers (which, BTW, should be "educators" not "teachers") are completely inept and incapable, and in many cases simply unable due to policy, to properly educate our children and get them interested in learning.

I went to a high school that was just ranked by Newsweek as being one of the top 20 high schools in the US, yet I can't remember a single teacher's name or have one positive memory of high school, other than that my Sr year is when I became a ski instructor.
post #43 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
and, as I said, they are valueless.

I've never used one. Never will. Don't see the point. If you have to "memorize" to pass a test, you don't know the material. end of story.

might I remind you all that litigation is the ultimate oral examination, and if you really think a mnemonic can help you in such strains of intellect, you are sadly deluded.
Amen, brother Gonz! I took a couple of Business Law classes in college, and if didn't have such a distate for structured education systems (meaning when I was done with my 4 years, I was DONE), I probably would have seriously considered law, because I got a real brain rush dealing with the intellect and common sense side of law. My parent's did a good job of teaching me right from wrong, and it made these classes seem incredibly straight forward and interesting.
post #44 of 58
mnemonics reduce the world to black and white.

we all know it's much more shaded and colored than that. even those of us who are genetically color-blind.

whomever you are, if you meet me in person, I will give you a Socratic examination that will destroy your belief in the soundness and utility of mnemonics. and it will happen fast, furiously and frantically. you will feel naked in a room full of well-clad people, and your embarrassment will be tangible to all.

PS to DrFRAU...

yes of course in the world of Biology, mnemonics can seem the highest utility for getting good grades. most bio learning in US colleges and universities revolves around memorize/regurgitate, and the same for med and dental and vet schools. that's true.

but,

is earning a good grade (even an A+) the same as being a competent scientist? or an excellent scientist? I think not.
post #45 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
mnemonics reduce the world to black and white.
Memories to a hash table for constant-time retrieval. No one says you can't get to the datum in other ways, its the unpredictable time factor to them.

Quote:
most bio learning in US colleges and universities revolves around memorize/regurgitate, and the same for med and dental and vet schools. that's true.
Try correlating information objects you can't remember at the same time.
post #46 of 58
Well, we are not all in the genius category like you are, Gonz. Not all of us have to deal with interpreting the Law on a daily basis, so I'm sure that we can use whatever means we think necessary to access rote information in our little pea brains.

Try multiplying large numbers without having memorized 6x7, 7x8, 9x4, etc. It would be pretty hard, even if you DID know the fundamentals of all kinds of math.

Memorizing is not evil. Using mnemonics is not evil.

Now about your reluctance to use capitals when starting a sentence........
post #47 of 58

Maybe you'd succeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
whomever you are, if you meet me in person, I will give you a Socratic examination that will destroy your belief in the soundness and utility of mnemonics. and it will happen fast, furiously and frantically. you will feel naked in a room full of well-clad people, and your embarrassment will be tangible to all.
Until they actually attempt to remember the beginning and the end, and resort to a mnemonic to do so.
post #48 of 58
damning me by faint praise, Mrs B?

"genius" huh? sheesh. that's a bit overblown. no, I'm not a genius. my grades prove that. a true genius could both memorize without effort, and reason/interconnect likewise. I have the 2d handled pretty well, but the first is well beyond me. "genius" people have the fabled "photographic memory" in addition to the ability to make it all come together integrally.

for immutable facts memorization truly works. 2+2 = 4 and it doesn't much matter what you wish to contest about it, it's still 4.

for computing the interrelation between/among pieces of data, memorization is NOWHERE, daddy-o. :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonni
Well, we are not all in the genius category like you are, Gonz. Not all of us have to deal with interpreting the Law on a daily basis, so I'm sure that we can use whatever means we think necessary to access rote information in our little pea brains.

Try multiplying large numbers without having memorized 6x7, 7x8, 9x4, etc. It would be pretty hard, even if you DID know the fundamentals of all kinds of math.

Memorizing is not evil. Using mnemonics is not evil.

Now about your reluctance to use capitals when starting a sentence........
post #49 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex
Until they actually attempt to remember the beginning and the end, and resort to a mnemonic to do so.
ech, my teaching time has shown me repeatedly that I would be able to do so, audience using mnemonics or not.

oral argument in a courtroom while being peppered with questions from a 3-judge appellate panel leaves NO ROOM for mnemonics or other parlor tricks, unless you hope to be laughed at by the panel in chambers, and ignored in their opinion.
post #50 of 58
Here's a mnemonic I'll bet we've all used. RICE: Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation.

Granted, it offers no path to deeper understanding of physiotherapy, but it is a useful tool.

First aid attendants learn "ABC: Airway, breathing, circulation". This can be a valuable and soothing tool when faced with a bloody accident victim in need of lifesaving care. I don't care how well you know the material; sometimes we get rattled (for instance, by the sight of a blood covered accident victim in need of lifesaving care), and a mnemonic can be a valuable tool for getting the mind back on track.
post #51 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex
Until they actually attempt to remember the beginning and the end, and resort to a mnemonic to do so.

I'm thinking the mnemonic they use might be BS.

ROTFLMAO!

HAHAHAHA!!
post #52 of 58
bool

shyte

Big

E

maybe

so
post #53 of 58
This sure is a funny thread.
post #54 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
This sure is a funny thread.
then I have succeeded. thank you.
post #55 of 58
Shift key.:
Shift key.:
Shift key.:
post #56 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
"genius" people have the fabled "photographic memory" in addition to the ability to make it all come together integrally.

for immutable facts memorization truly works. 2+2 = 4 and it doesn't much matter what you wish to contest about it, it's still 4.

for computing the interrelation between/among pieces of data, memorization is NOWHERE, daddy-o. :
Gonzo, you have hit the nail on the head. You need both!

When I was in school, somewhere around grade 3 I think ( I really don't remember ), I decided that logic was the thing, and poo-pooed memory. I regret it now. Both improve with exercise. My memory pretty much atrophied.

On the other hand I may just have a lowsy memory. Maybe that's why I ignored it and concentrated on compensating for it by developing my abstract reasoning abilities. My visual recognition is abysmal. Maybe it was that fastball to the head when I was 11, or maybe I moved around too much as a kid, but I have trouble recognizing faces, and remembering names.
post #57 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
for computing the interrelation between/among pieces of data, memorization is NOWHERE, daddy-o
Disagree.

Here's an example mnemonic that will help you remember the sequence of events in the operation of an internal combustion engine (4 stroke):

Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow.

The mnemonic does not allow you to forget the details, it just makes jogging the memory a bit easier. It's just the tip of the iceberg. You are right if seeing the tip becomes sufficient with knowing the whole thing....
post #58 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
Disagree.


Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow.
Now THAT'S funny!!!!!!
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