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Non-FIS Legal Sidecut Race Stock GS?

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Does anyone make an "oversized" GS ski with a <21 m radius sidecut with full vertical sidewalls of the level of the "World Cup Race Stock" skis available to the public? Is a Stockli Laser SC the closest thing?
post #2 of 28
why sidewall?
post #3 of 28
Thread Starter 
So you can use whatever binding/plate you want and are not locked into the system that works with that particular brand. I still prefer Marker MRR bindings, but they don't even work with Volkl/Marker systems anymore (yes, I know Marker has discontinued the MRR, but it is because they didn't want to have to make two systems not because the style is obsolete).

There are other benefits to the vertical sidewalls for performance, but someone with more of a race or engineering background could probably explain that better.
post #4 of 28
While I can´t say if they are of the same level as race stock and/or WC GS skis (edges, bases, sidewall material and flex would/could be different) I found some which should be at least very high-performance:

- Elan GSX 178 (107-66-95/18.3 m) and esp. 184 cm (104-66-91, without Fusion)
- Head Worldcup i.Race
- Head i.XRC 1200 SW
- Atomic SX:B5 (no vertical sidewalls, of course, but fairly high-performance)
- Kneissl Super Moto (113-68-96/183 cm/19 m)
- Maxel GS Strom Race
- Stockli Laser Cross Pro (up to 180 cm)
- Stockli Laser Cross
- Stockli Laser SC (04/05, not 05/06)
- Black Thunder/Speedlock (made by Horst Gamper in Italy)

Some of them for sure won´t be the same level but they are the best I could find to fit your requirements.
post #5 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkracer
- Stockli Laser SC (04/05, not 05/06)
What has changed in this model that would take it down a notch?
post #6 of 28
Laser SC
2004/2005: 107-63-90/178 cm/18.6 m
2005/2006: 114-63-95/177 cm/ 16.1 m - which, IMO, is a bit too far from he GS characteristics you mentioned in the first post.

Otoh, the Cross Pro has 188 cm/21.5 m.
post #7 of 28
sidewall construction is the easiest, most inexpensive method of producing skis and has very little to do with performance.
post #8 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkracer
Laser SC
2004/2005: 107-63-90/178 cm/18.6 m
2005/2006: 114-63-95/177 cm/ 16.1 m - which, IMO, is a bit too far from he GS characteristics you mentioned in the first post.

Otoh, the Cross Pro has 188 cm/21.5 m.
It seems they're going more towards a slalom style sidecut. That ski, the SC, was always touted as a dual event ski and the shop guys would say go with the 168 if you want a slalom and a 178 if you want a GS. I wonder why they don't make a "GC" ski after changing the sidecut unless the Cross Pro fits that bill?
post #9 of 28
My guess:
with Laser SL and GS only the SC was a useful crossling but now with two Cross models the SC would be too close to them.

As to the sidewall:
I suspect we are playing semantics here.
Sidewall as such does not give a ski high performance qualities. The same applies to "sandwich". There are some cheap(er) sandwich skis, e.g. Dynastar has - if I remember well - 18 sandwich skis including the recreational models.
I´m sure jjdow means "sidewall" as a synonym for high-performance and race sandwich ski (with sidewalls).
Afaik, that´s the way the term "sandwich skis" is often used - although, as we also know, it´s literally just the system of layering the materials used.
Agreed?
post #10 of 28
There was a huge difference in the flex of the Stockli GS. You had to use some serious energy to truly use the ski as intended.
post #11 of 28
I would add the Fischer WC RC to your list. 112-66-97 cut.

the ski has been out for 3 going on 4 years now ; 2006 is unchanged except colors. Fischer really has this board dialed in well. Mount what you want plate ; 16 meter turn in a 175 cm. the ski has a lot of beef to it. can be used in masters races well with the exception of wide open courses & just plain rips up eastern ice. Length is critical b/c too small & it will be too turny & too long it's a board
post #12 of 28
I have not included the Fischer because it doesn´t have (at least I think so) the classic sidewall required.
I agree that it belongs here performance-wise.

If I´m right then the last retail sandwich Fischer was the RX 10 Phenom FTi from 03/04. It was a very rare ski and I haven´t probably seen it except in the catalog and the Munich ISPO Show.
post #13 of 28
Edited:
@Checkracer. I have seen many RCs' and SCs',with sandwich/sidewall construction in Austria, on the slopes and in the shops, and not Fis Legal. On the website they even said true Worldcup construction, which is clearly not true.

However the RCs' radius became 1m shorter each year during the last 3 years. The newest RC has similar radius to the SL11m from Atomic. Ski companies can't decide what they want.
post #14 of 28
the stockli SC was a very user-friendly ski. It was fantastic in steep bumps! But you felt safe at terminal speeds. Sigh. I still want a pair (they sold out).
post #15 of 28
ant .... gotta' know the right people ....
post #16 of 28
I did! I know the BEST Stockli people in Australia. It was just that I was playing with the last pair of 158s, and then Disski pipped me at the post for those, goddammit. Maybe she'll rent them to me this winter...
post #17 of 28
yeah...true the sc & RC are not true World cup const. but they get the job done well...
I tested the RX 10 when it was a pre-proto thing. that ski never made it to the us market
post #18 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjdow
Does anyone make an "oversized" GS ski with a <21 m radius sidecut with full vertical sidewalls of the level of the "World Cup Race Stock" skis available to the public? Is a Stockli Laser SC the closest thing?
Technically, any World Cup Stock must be FIS legal. 21m or greater. There are many options, but not World Cup Stock. To make a recommendation, I would need to know more about you and what you want the ski to do.
Thanks,
John
post #19 of 28
Technically, any World Cup Stock must be FIS legal. 21m or greater. There are many options, but not World Cup Stock. To make a recommendation, I would need to know more about you and what you want the ski to do.
Thanks,
John
post #20 of 28
Fischer RX 10 Phenom FTi 03/04 sandwich construction with vertical sidewalls. Sidecut approx 105-65-91 but varied slightly with each length made to keep radius >21m. The ski was available in Canada. FIS compliant.

Fischer RC4 WC RC sandwich construction with vertical sidewalls. Sidecut 112-66-97. Radius 16m @175cm. This ski has remained unchanged for three seasons except for graphics as far as I know. Non-FIS compliant.

Fischer RC4 WC SC sandwich construction with vertical sidewalls. Sidecut 118-66 -99. Radius 12m@ 160cm. FIS compliant @165 or> for men; 155cm or> for women. Lengths available 150-175cm in 5 cm increments.

All are said to be excellent skis. They are "World Cup" construction just to the extent that they are sandwich skis with vertical sidewalls. For "race room" skis you need the Fischer RC4 GS or RC4 SL.
post #21 of 28
I was not sure about the Fischers and had the impression they were nor sidewalled sandwiches. Thanks for the feedback.

Why are we discussing the Fischer RC4 WC SC with 12 m radius in a topic about ""oversized" GS ski"?

The original question concerned "an "oversized" GS ski with a <21 m radius sidecut with full vertical sidewalls of the level of the "World Cup Race Stock" skis".
No one was considering World Cup Stock with a <21 m radius. That´s to say we all know that such skis have to comply with the FIS requirements.

Fischer RX 10 Phenom FTi 03/04: I had the impression the ski was basically the Fischer (race stock sandwich) GS 02/03, at least dimension-wise.

Btw, do you remember the trend toward shorter GS skis with more sidecut that was stopped by the FIS?
"Look out for: Equipe 10 2V. The ultimate cutting tool for all speed freaks developed with our world cup racers. Only one ski specially designed for both slalom and giant: 152 and 160 lengths for Slalom and 168 lengths for GS."
(Salomon catalog 2000/2001)

They were years when some racers were experimenting with such skis. I can remember Laser SC in the Czech Championships and even a fairly wild experiment with the 152 cm "hypercarver" Salomon Axecleaver (108-68-98), also in a Champs race.
post #22 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkracer
Why are we discussing the Fischer RC4 WC SC with 12 m radius in a topic about ""oversized" GS ski"?


The original question concerned "an "oversized" GS ski with a <21 m radius side cut with full vertical sidewalls of the level of the "World Cup Race Stock" skis"...


You are right. A previous post mentioned the Fischer WC SC as non-FIS compliant. It actually is compliant although I suspect most Fischer Athletes at the World Cup level are on the Fischer SL. This thread sort of did get off track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by checkracer
Fischer RX 10 Phenom FTi 03/04: I had the impression the ski was basically the Fischer (race stock sandwich) GS 02/03, at least dimension-wise.
I believe the RX-10 Phenom was basically a detuned version of the Fischer GS "race room" ski of the time. The GS "race room" ski sidecut was and continues to be almost identical to the Phenom. This season the GS ski was 104-65-90. The RX 10 also used a different plate than the "race room" GS. The RX-10 Phenom had the same plate that the Fischer WC RC uses.
post #23 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostboy
I believe the RX-10 Phenom was basically a detuned version of the Fischer GS "race room" ski of the time. The GS "race room" ski sidecut was and continues to be almost identical to the Phenom. This season the GS ski was 104-65-90. The RX 10 also used a different plate than the "race room" GS. The RX-10 Phenom had the same plate that the Fischer WC RC uses.
As you say. I believe you nailed it.

I can also imagine that there were only few people interested in such a ski. The traditional GS-freaks preferred the GS and the rest were happier on a ski with some smaller radius.

I can see around me that most skiers can´t imagine anymore skiing on 21+ meter something. I´m not saying that it´s good or bad, just that it´s the way it is.
post #24 of 28
Cap Construction was developed because it was less expensive than producing vertical sidewall laminate skis. All inexpensive skis are a cap construction. Many of the best race skis are vertical sidewall construction because they have the most integrity. They are flatter, and they retain their shape better. This is obvious to tuners who run all types of skis over a machine all day. Many inexpensive skis are almost impossible to get flat because they deform as you try to grind them. Having said this, many cap skis also have great integrity. Some skis use both to get the best of both worlds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by logruve
sidewall construction is the easiest, most inexpensive method of producing skis and has very little to do with performance.
post #25 of 28
on the back side, once the molds are established, cap construction is definetely more cost effective. however, the molds used in the construction of these two types of skis are completely different. old molds can be utilized in the construction of sidewall skis saving tons of money (it's much cheaper to alter those molds.) in terms of real racing skis, sidewall construction offers no more structural integrity than any other lay up. in fact there are more bonded surfaces to deal with. two 3-4mm abs, ether or tpe sidewalls do nothing to shore up a ski. flatness(again, in real racing skis) comes from keeping the ski in the mold allowing the materials, which all cure at different rates, to cool. (obviously the lay up of the ski will determine it's flatness as well.) most inexpensive skis and boots are produced in such numbers that it would slow production greatly to allow complete curing for all products. base flatness,(a can o' worms) i won't bother to get in to. i will say that we have "A" team athletes skiing around out there on skis that most back shop guys would grind and grind and grind trying to get flat. in the end both construction methods are fine and work well
post #26 of 28
logruve. How did you go from 115 posts to 1 in this thread with two different join dates?:
post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostboy
logruve. How did you go from 115 posts to 1 in this thread with two different join dates?:
Sort of punishment for some bad post?
post #28 of 28
for some reason i couldn't log in from the office so i re-registered using an underscore but the underscore doesn't show with the line under the names.
that's all...

mark bettencourt
atomic racing usa
mabettencourt@atomicski.com
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