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Summer Refinish Program

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
Hey Bears,
Check out www.precisiontuningcenter.com for information on this unique program.

Skidoc
post #2 of 25
95 bucks!?!? I think i'll pass, a good tune should never cost more than 30 dollars. They probably rope in a fair amount of suckers though.
post #3 of 25
Considering that it includes free return shipping, $95 may not be that bad depending on where you ship your skis from. I've yet to find a good stone grind for less than $40 let alone a full tune. Tack on shipping to and from and you can see where the price goes...

-T
post #4 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by real9999
Tack on shipping to and from and you can see where the price goes...

-T
Troof. And I've some truly funked bases right now. Though I read it as 'you pay shipping to'.
post #5 of 25
Is it a coincidence that the shop and Skidoc are from the same place? Framingham Ma.
post #6 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJP
Is it a coincidence that the shop and Skidoc are from the same place? Framingham Ma.
Of course not, he runs it!
post #7 of 25
Thread Starter 
Everyone is entitled to have their opinion on what a good "tune" is worth. However, "tuning" refers to mainaining a pre-existing foundation, not necessarily altering it. I also refer to a "tune" as a "sharpen and wax." This type of service is worth about 30 bucks.

"Refinishing" is an entirely different service. It reestablishes or recreates a proper base finish and edge angle foundation upon which "tuning" may now occur. This type of service is a lot harder to find than one may think, and is virtually impossible to find for 30 bucks.

Skidoc
post #8 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
95 bucks!?!? I think i'll pass, a good tune should never cost more than 30 dollars. They probably rope in a fair amount of suckers though.
Hey I'm not interested in a flame war with you zig. I do not consider my customers "suckers."

The actual "sucker" out there is the consumer that thinks something good is actually happening to their product after a 30 dollar stone grind. The reality is they just made a "donation" to the ski shop. Most people actually pay money to have the performance removed from their skis. Now that's value!
I tend to think the average ski enthusiast deserves a great deal more from ski service, and is the true foundation upon which I operate. I only "rope" people in to spending the money by providing superior product that makes a positive difference out there on the slopes.

However, I guess you will never know.

Skidoc
post #9 of 25
Skidoc has been my tuner (ok, "refinisher") of choice for the past couple of years. He has done all of my race skis and most of the upper end of my quiver. He also does my family's race skis.

I can understand one's reluctance to perceive the added value of a refinish at PTC. But comparing said refinish to a generic tuneup at the average shop is like comparing a car wash to a really good automobile detailer; they are not the same thing. Skidoc is fanatical about the bevel angles and finish on the ski base, and includes finishes, care, and meticulous measurements that the others don't care to know about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skidoc
If one is good to their refinish and does not beat the snot out of their equipment and performs a decent self-maintenance program, a refinish can last for a couple of seasons!
With minimal maitenance, I have been able to maintain the finish and bevels almost perfectly for two seasons without another grind. When I brought in my SX11s (that he did at the start of last year) in at the end of this season for a checkup, the bevels were still spot-on. Mind you, I am meticulous also.

The PTC refinish is not for everyone (unfortunately for them). But for those who demand a level of service and care a cut above the rest, you owe it to yourself to try PTC at least once. Your skiing will thank you, in my opinion.
post #10 of 25
Yeah I know I like to spend upwards of $1000 on skis and then have some shitbum ski store with a high school kid tune them for $30. :

Mike does a great job and is skilled at what he does.

The tunes are worth every penny.
post #11 of 25

'DIY' tuning assumptions I've never been comfortable with

1. The bases are flat. What I mean by this is actually hidden in plain sight in this picture from Tognar:

Has anyone noticed that the (presumably) flat base one is using the true bar with doesn't actually stay parallel to to the idealised topsheet? In DIY tuning all edge references are made to the plane of the base. Notice that there could be a 'tuner cant' of some degrees relative to the idealised topsheet and a home tuner would never know! Without micrometer thickness measurement that is, and any one can think of a host of problems with THAT.

2. (1.5 really) Uniformity over ski length.
If anything of #1 is present then in a real sense the 'cant' could actually change direction, 'sense' if you will over the length of the ski. So that the forebody could be 'tuner canted' outside, the tail 'tuner canted' outside. Lovely.
But that is not all for #2
Assume no 'tuner canting' exists. There is nothing that says previous spot filing over a repair (for instance) hasn't removed more material than else where. If this syndrome was graduated over the length one might think of it as 'tuner ramp', but I more suspect this syndrome in a wobbly erratic mode.

Mind you, I don't know that any of these exist.

I also don't know that they don't.

If skidoc can tell me, I'll pay.
post #12 of 25
Thread Starter 
Comprex,

I think those diagrams are misleading. First of all, in general "perfectly flat" bases do not exist. When they do exist however, the topsheet tends to be flat with no 3 dimensionality that most of today's skis have. Virtually every ski one can think of has some type of convexity and concavity to the top surface. Topsheet shape will always effect base profile. If you ever pull a new ski off the rack and take a proper true bar to see if the base is "flat" you'll never find it. Production trends always lean towards concavity, which is not the enemy. Convexity is never acceptable.

The math is correct, and edge angles and there installation I treat empirically. Every ski that is refinished leaves with a base edge tolerance of no less than .5 degree, and no greater than 1.0 degree. My target is .75, but in base beveling, stability and consistency are never perfect over the length of the ski via man or machine. In my opinion + or - .25 degree is negligable when base bevels are this shallow.

The diagram also depicts the ski as 60mm wide, the likes of which I have never seen one for real. One needs a hairline true bar with a knife-like edge to properly measure the 60mm formula. By this particular formula, 1mm in height at the end of 60mm = 1 degree. In reality, it really measures a couple of hundreths more than a degree. For diagnostic training all employee's use calipers to familiarize their eye with what 1mm looks like. It takes very little time for them as I'm sure it could for you to realize that a true .5 to 1.0 degree is a very small distance, about .75 the thickness of a dime. Just look at a mm stick for a while and forget you ever saw that diagram.

I'm not sure what you mean by "cant" except that you may mean pilot error. All base edge bevel guides use the 60mm formula, so the sidecut of the ski does not influence angle installation. However, give 10 people flat base edges and a base file guide, and you'll likely see 10 different interpretations of tool usage and 10 different end results.

Just remember, "one cannot control what one does not measure." Bring that to your local shop and watch the bugs scatter.

Skidoc
post #13 of 25
Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean by "cant" except that you may mean pilot error.
That a true bar on a clamped ski won't tell you one sidewall+edge is shorter than the other. Maybe the last guy doing the filing had a twitch in his left arm, who knows? Probably this is included in what you call 'pilot error'. The extreme case I hypothesise above might be apparent as a twist to the base.
Quote:
Just remember, "one cannot control what one does not measure."
Hey, that's my point!

Quote:
Topsheet shape will always effect base profile.
. . .
My target is .75, but in base beveling, stability and consistency are never perfect over the length of the ski via man or machine. In my opinion + or - .25 degree is negligable when base bevels are this shallow.
That's actually a pretty good answer, thanks for taking the trouble.
post #14 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
95 bucks!?!? I think i'll pass, a good tune should never cost more than 30 dollars. They probably rope in a fair amount of suckers though.
Wow. You are really retarded. Mike is a former World Cup technician, as well as product developer for Volkl, there is no other way to get that kind of expertise in a ski technician availible to the public. Mike saved a pair of my skis that ski-market ruined with a "full tune." In reality, they had put a ~12 degree base bevel on my skis that I used for GS. Mike showed me the angles then fixed it, they now ski better than when I bought them. I would not trust anyone else to put my skis near a machine. The tunes are worth whatever the charge is, if not only for the expertise but also becuase they last the whole season, if you maintain them in a way that is so easy a trained monkey could do it. (assuming you dont ski rock gardens)

Think before you say something zion, a tune has a direct correlation to how much fun you have on skis, especially in the east.
post #15 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublediamond223
Wow. You are really retarded. Think before you say something zion, a tune has a direct correlation to how much fun you have on skis, especially in the east.
I also don't like spam, which is how this started.

A tune has never made the difference in how much fun i've had, but then again, i don't ski in the east.
post #16 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
I also don't like spam, which is how this started.

A tune has never made the difference in how much fun i've had, but then again, i don't ski in the east.
Either you are not a very good skier or have no feel for your edges.

A tune is everything if you have the skill and feel to put it to use!

Sounds to me like the only sucker is you!
post #17 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Either you are not a very good skier or have no feel for your edges.
I'm not a very good skier.
post #18 of 25
ZZZ, I know where you're coming from.

Another facet of the CZ is that skidoc could make his posts non-spammy by sharing information we couldn't use as we don't have the requisite machinery.

IMO, a complete impasse is more of a waste than the bit of chat we just had.
post #19 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex
ZZZ, I know where you're coming from.

Another facet of the CZ is that skidoc could make his posts non-spammy by sharing information we couldn't use as we don't have the requisite machinery.

IMO, a complete impasse is more of a waste than the bit of chat we just had.
In all seriousness, Mike (skidoc) is a very professional knowledgable guy who has posted very good useful information on the forum. He has a depth of knowledge and experience that you would be hard pressed to find elsewhere.

If you don't like his posts, DON'T READ THEM! No one is forcing you to send your skis to him, converse with him or comment about him. But many folks here just might find his services invaluable. So why should they be deprived of his knowledge and services because you guys want to whine!

With all the posts on Epic about lousy tunes form the "Neighborhood" shop, and whines: "I just had my skis tuned why are they skiing so bad"? That's what a $25-$30 tune gets ya! No wonder Mike saw an opportunity for to help folks with their problems and make some $$$$ for hinmself. That is the dfinition of professionalism. Diagnose the problem and apply the correct solution and get paid for it!

What the hell is wrong with that?
post #20 of 25
Atomicman, I know all this.

In fact I was about to suggest to the powers about that I am not comfortable with the current definition of spam, which appears to be commercial postings that aren't a direct answer to a request.

I was going to suggest that there is an implicit request of all active posters to share as much as they conceivably can, on forum or off, and that a directly soliciting post is not necessary in the case of a proven contributor. There is no expectation of a free off-forum service, only that it stand up to billing.

I don't want to phrase my opinion in terms of 'they've paid for their unsolicited posts by contributing to the other forums' because I do not want a reward/punishment system and its corrollary: lack of trust.

I believe an enlightened understanding can exist in spite of trolls, moderate anonymity, and the random digs we all seem to have at each other.

But, hey, no one listens to me.
post #21 of 25
Spam shmam, who cares? There really isn't much to talk about this time of year, so any worthy advice about fixing up some of our badly trashed skis is probably the best thing for some of us right now.

skidoc has a very good reputation around here, and the info he posted above dispells any notion that this is a useless spam thread. I, for one am very interested in hearing about these services because I'm fanatical about my ski bases, and this seems to be a very worthwhile, and hard to find service if you need such a thing.

I do have one question for skidoc:

My son has a pair of Dynastar Skicross 66 skis with only about 20 days on them, but recently he caused some severe edge damage by hopping onto a couple of rails in a terrain park, and basically creating several dents along the very edges of his skis.

They're along the same edge sides on both skis, so swapping them doesn't help. I had them tuned at a shop at Sugarbush, but the edge hold was still rather poor.
As far as I know, the only remedy for this is to grind the heck out of the bases to remove the small dents, if possible.

Is there any other way to fix this problem? Will your primo refinish job be able to deal with this, or are they most likely beyond help?

I realize that you really can't say much without seeing them, but I'm hoping you might have a suggestion. Thanks!
post #22 of 25
Thread Starter 
Carvemeister,
I've brought many railed twin tips back to life. There is a way to cheat that type of deformation without grinding away the whole ski. 100% of the damage may not be removed, but enough of it will be erradicated to the point where the driver will not detect it.

Feel free to PM me with any further questions about the summer program, especially since you are close by you may consider avoiding shipping.

Skidoc
post #23 of 25
Thread Starter 
To anyone who seems to feel I'm subjecting them to some sort of spam scam I truly apologize. It's just the way I talk. However, I'll do my best to create answers that do not show up on the spam radar.
I honestly did not feel that selling my service on the "Buy, Sell, Swap Forum was going to raise a few hairs.

Skidoc
post #24 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by skidoc
Carvemeister,
I've brought many railed twin tips back to life. There is a way to cheat that type of deformation without grinding away the whole ski. 100% of the damage may not be removed, but enough of it will be erradicated to the point where the driver will not detect it.

Feel free to PM me with any further questions about the summer program, especially since you are close by you may consider avoiding shipping.

Skidoc
Sounds good to me. We'll be somewhere nearby in the next few months checking out a few colleges for my son. I'll probably bring the skis along with me and drop them off when we do.
post #25 of 25
A great tune will cost you more than 30 bucks. You are paying for the technicians time. For 30 bucks, they can't spend much time on your skis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
95 bucks!?!? I think i'll pass, a good tune should never cost more than 30 dollars. They probably rope in a fair amount of suckers though.
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