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Future of National Ski Patrol - Page 4

post #91 of 103

I've found that a lot of places other than ski patrols recognize OEC certification.  

post #92 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

I've found that a lot of places other than ski patrols recognize OEC certification.  


What are those other places.

post #93 of 103

Rafting company's, tour company's....  I work as a fill in raft guide and a full time Yellowstone tour guide.  My OEC training is recognized by both of those employers.  I also know that it is accepted at many heli operations and virtually any other skiing based company out there.  It should be....  OEC is a much more rigorous course than the Red Cross courses or the Woofer.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreddagnar View Post




What are those other places.

post #94 of 103

About the Mount Mansfield Ski Patrol, it used to be a member of the NSP (founding member even), but a former Patrol Director pulled them out because of a few issues, the main being that NSP trained patrollers could't handle the advanced terrain at Stowe, and the MMSP had more stringent sled tests. 

post #95 of 103



To my knowledge, and this is biased to the present and immediate past 20 years, transportation and skiing skills are a mountain to mountain skill set and are not now (can't vouch for always) NSP measured or tested.  So, while that statement makes for good lore, I really doubt there is a lot of validity to it. 

 

It is quite fair to say MMSP had or has a stringent sled test, No argument there  It is not accurate to say NSP training could not handle the terrain since there is not (now) nsp ski training.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by VT-108 View Post

About the Mount Mansfield Ski Patrol, it used to be a member of the NSP (founding member even), but a former Patrol Director pulled them out because of a few issues, the main being that NSP trained patrollers could't handle the advanced terrain at Stowe, and the MMSP had more stringent sled tests. 

post #96 of 103

Quote:

Originally Posted by skier_j View Post

To my knowledge, and this is biased to the present and immediate past 20 years, transportation and skiing skills are a mountain to mountain skill set and are not now (can't vouch for always) NSP measured or tested.  So, while that statement makes for good lore, I really doubt there is a lot of validity to it. 

 

It is quite fair to say MMSP had or has a stringent sled test, No argument there  It is not accurate to say NSP training could not handle the terrain since there is not (now) nsp ski training.


Not sure that's entirely accurate.  I believe that the Senior exam includes sleds.  There's also a toboggan instructor program and cert.

 

But you're correct that NSP does not set standards for toboggan handling at individual hills.

post #97 of 103

Bonni,

As a retired long time Certified Patroller and S&T trainer (22 years), I found it interesting that so far no one has mentioned the average length of a patroller's participation. Back in 2001 it was less than 6 years. Although in Loveland's patrol the average was closer to twenty years, so I imagine elsewhere the one or two year folks were more prevalent. It's in these new folks that the future of the organization lies. How long you keep them involved is directly related to getting them involved on more than a superficial level. Get them connected to the idea of serving. It's the glue that gives the patrol community it's identity. Sure SAM has shifted some work to the patrol department but I can't say I know a harder working bunch of people than the folks I had the pleasure to work with for over two decades. They also were always first in line when it came to giving to others with no expectation of remuneration. Something I just don't see in as many people nowdays. IMO there are too many people looking to be served running around in the mountains nowdays and not enough of the ask me I'll help types. My theory is the Metroplexes breed a more selfish crowd since nowdays helping others in the city can get you shot. That's why I'm glad I've had the opportunity to live in mountain communities where helping others is still considered a civic responsibility. I also feel organizations like the NSPS still offer a way for folks to give back to the sport they love and it's a fine opportunity for you to demonstrate to your kids that giving is part of your life. I know my kids got that strong sense of giving from seeing me so involved in the NSPS.

Myself I've moved on to ski teaching because I was beginning to suffer from patrol related PTSD. Like they say, when you start asking yourself how many more sick and injured people do I really want to see, it's time to move on. That doesn't mean I've stopped giving back to the community though, I mentor at risk teens and through my local Chamber of Commerce I help new business owners develop their business skills and connect to the local business community. So I hope you step forward and join a patrol and I wish you well on the journey to becoming part of the community of givers in red coats that make skiing a much safer sport.

Many Blessings,

JASP

NSP (retired)

post #98 of 103



The implication was rank and file, not senior (which i don;t believe existed back then) and even at that the senior exam is Division driven.  While I don;t know from frist hand experience, my educated guess is that the senior S & T exam in the RMD is probably more strenuous than in say Southern div. 

 

I'm saying there is no national standard to meet WRT skiing skills at the basic patroller level and to my knowledge even at the senior or certified levels.

 

I watched some rank and file sled traing at Snow King a couple years ago during the gathering and it was on terrain that would have scared the bejezzuz out of me.

 

I'll guess that many of my fellows at the very small area I ski at (me included) would fail miserably handling sleds at say JH or Snowbird, yet are fully qualified sled handlers in our region.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDad View Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by skier_j View Post

To my knowledge, and this is biased to the present and immediate past 20 years, transportation and skiing skills are a mountain to mountain skill set and are not now (can't vouch for always) NSP measured or tested.  So, while that statement makes for good lore, I really doubt there is a lot of validity to it. 

 

It is quite fair to say MMSP had or has a stringent sled test, No argument there  It is not accurate to say NSP training could not handle the terrain since there is not (now) nsp ski training.


Not sure that's entirely accurate.  I believe that the Senior exam includes sleds.  There's also a toboggan instructor program and cert.

 

But you're correct that NSP does not set standards for toboggan handling at individual hills.

post #99 of 103

If you've every been to Stowe and skied Starr or National, then you know what I'm talking about.  The MMSP test requires 4 perfect runs in a row down with no tail rope down Starr or National.  The director wanted everybody patrolling to pass the MMSP sled test.  There were also a few other issues over procedures and qualifications.  The MMSP is a state licensed first responder service, and all members are EMT-B trained at minimum,

post #100 of 103

I was "rank & file" trained at Snow King.  When I went to do my senior S&T (at Snow King), many of the people there were freaked out by the terrain.  I pulled one tail roper like a water skier.  I could have been failed for not working as a team, however this guy really couldn't ski very well.  Once I figured out that all the examiners wanted to see were pivot slips in the horns it was easy.  I really wonder how good many Nationals are at a lot of areas across the country.  I feel like I could run a sled down almost anything after working The King for several years.

 

As mentioned in another post, the NSP has real problems with retention.  I have been reducing my involvement as I am now truly a professional skier who works full time at JHMR.  Snow King has a particular problem with the best talent being siphoned off to work at "The Big One".  I have found that I like teaching better than patrolling, but many of the patrollers that I trained with at The King are now wearing crosses at JHMR.

 

I got some really good training at The King, got a bunch of awards, and for a while was an assistant patrol director.  I had the opportunity to become an Avalanche and Mountain Safety & Rescue instructor for the division and travelled to other areas to help with trainings.  NSP was great for me and got me started on my current path.  I still patrol every Tuesday night and help with misc. trainings and that is really all that I have time for anymore.  I teach Weds-Sund all day at JHMR and can't get across the valley fast enough to be on time for a night shift.  Snow King has no night skiing on Mondays.  Tuesdays I work with an advanced local kids group at JHMR that ends around 2:30 so I race across the valley and do a night shift every week.  I wish I could do more.  
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_j View Post



The implication was rank and file, not senior (which i don;t believe existed back then) and even at that the senior exam is Division driven.  While I don;t know from frist hand experience, my educated guess is that the senior S & T exam in the RMD is probably more strenuous than in say Southern div. 

 

I'm saying there is no national standard to meet WRT skiing skills at the basic patroller level and to my knowledge even at the senior or certified levels.

 

I watched some rank and file sled traing at Snow King a couple years ago during the gathering and it was on terrain that would have scared the bejezzuz out of me.

 

I'll guess that many of my fellows at the very small area I ski at (me included) would fail miserably handling sleds at say JH or Snowbird, yet are fully qualified sled handlers in our region.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDad View Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by skier_j View Post

To my knowledge, and this is biased to the present and immediate past 20 years, transportation and skiing skills are a mountain to mountain skill set and are not now (can't vouch for always) NSP measured or tested.  So, while that statement makes for good lore, I really doubt there is a lot of validity to it. 

 

It is quite fair to say MMSP had or has a stringent sled test, No argument there  It is not accurate to say NSP training could not handle the terrain since there is not (now) nsp ski training.


Not sure that's entirely accurate.  I believe that the Senior exam includes sleds.  There's also a toboggan instructor program and cert.

 

But you're correct that NSP does not set standards for toboggan handling at individual hills.


 
post #101 of 103


Yes I can believe that. Snow King was a great area I thought!

 

 

You help make my point pretty well actually.  National appointment doesn't  mean higher level ski skills as a matter of routine I'd say it rarely does.  Senior badge , to me, comes with an asterisk.  One of my buddies has both, it took him 7 years to pass senior (he says it is the best 35 dollar fee he ever paid, got 7 years of coaching form it!) He'll even say he thinks that they just passed him on senior S & T to get him over the hump. Along the way he passed the senior first aid (at the time, now Sr EMM).  What he got a national appointment for i have no idea but it certainly wasn't ski skills.  Now, probably 5 to 7 years later,  as a much better  skier than when he passed the S & T part, there is no way he (or I for that matter) would pass at Snow King on some of that terrain.

 

If there were a NSP wide skiing standard, that would not be the case.  At our home area, he and I both have far more ski skills that the area requires but neither would probably have the skill to ski (as patrol) the whole mountain in some larger resorts---Stowe included, front 4 on an icy day would certainly make me pucker up! 

 

Back on topic, Bonni, my former wife, started this thread after an annual meeting we attended 7 or 8 years ago that was populated by a minimum average age over 60. I don;t remember the order of things but then she started taking the OEC course (current edition) and eventually dropped the course mid way through for a whole lot of reaosn not the least of which was the time commitment involved.   

 

Our area has had some luck attracting younger folks and in just the past few seasons have brought in a fair amount of new patrollers that are 30 somethings with kids.  We are like Snow King in the sense that we are right in town and serve as a child care facility for the local kids from school out til close at 9.    However we are going backwards in numbers because more of the 70 and up crowd are calling it a carreer that we are attracting new through the door.  As a result, the individual time committment has to rise to meet the areas needs with fewer patrollers.

 

I don;t know what the answer but there has to be one out there somewhere.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

I was "rank & file" trained at Snow King.  When I went to do my senior S&T (at Snow King), many of the people there were freaked out by the terrain.  I pulled one tail roper like a water skier.  I could have been failed for not working as a team, however this guy really couldn't ski very well.  Once I figured out that all the examiners wanted to see were pivot slips in the horns it was easy.  I really wonder how good many Nationals are at a lot of areas across the country.  I feel like I could run a sled down almost anything after working The King for several years.

 

As mentioned in another post, the NSP has real problems with retention.  I have been reducing my involvement as I am now truly a professional skier who works full time at JHMR.  Snow King has a particular problem with the best talent being siphoned off to work at "The Big One".  I have found that I like teaching better than patrolling, but many of the patrollers that I trained with at The King are now wearing crosses at JHMR.

 

I got some really good training at The King, got a bunch of awards, and for a while was an assistant patrol director.  I had the opportunity to become an Avalanche and Mountain Safety & Rescue instructor for the division and travelled to other areas to help with trainings.  NSP was great for me and got me started on my current path.  I still patrol every Tuesday night and help with misc. trainings and that is really all that I have time for anymore.  I teach Weds-Sund all day at JHMR and can't get across the valley fast enough to be on time for a night shift.  Snow King has no night skiing on Mondays.  Tuesdays I work with an advanced local kids group at JHMR that ends around 2:30 so I race across the valley and do a night shift every week.  I wish I could do more.  
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_j View Post



The implication was rank and file, not senior (which i don;t believe existed back then) and even at that the senior exam is Division driven.  While I don;t know from frist hand experience, my educated guess is that the senior S & T exam in the RMD is probably more strenuous than in say Southern div. 

 

I'm saying there is no national standard to meet WRT skiing skills at the basic patroller level and to my knowledge even at the senior or certified levels.

 

I watched some rank and file sled traing at Snow King a couple years ago during the gathering and it was on terrain that would have scared the bejezzuz out of me.

 

I'll guess that many of my fellows at the very small area I ski at (me included) would fail miserably handling sleds at say JH or Snowbird, yet are fully qualified sled handlers in our region.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDad View Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by skier_j View Post

To my knowledge, and this is biased to the present and immediate past 20 years, transportation and skiing skills are a mountain to mountain skill set and are not now (can't vouch for always) NSP measured or tested.  So, while that statement makes for good lore, I really doubt there is a lot of validity to it. 

 

It is quite fair to say MMSP had or has a stringent sled test, No argument there  It is not accurate to say NSP training could not handle the terrain since there is not (now) nsp ski training.


Not sure that's entirely accurate.  I believe that the Senior exam includes sleds.  There's also a toboggan instructor program and cert.

 

But you're correct that NSP does not set standards for toboggan handling at individual hills.


 

 
post #102 of 103

 

 

This still does not backup nor reinforce the assertion that "nsp trained" could not handle the terrain.  If you are saying that while NSP affilated the training in S & T that was availble to Stowe patrollers lack a bit due to the caliber of skier belonging to the patorl at the time,  I might buy that since there is no nsp standard.  I'll bet that if that is truly the case, the better skiier probably segwayed right from NSP card to MMSP card no fuss no muss.  Not going to get into the EMT-B v OEC technician, it is just a different minimum skill level standard to meet and  is always fully the areas perogative to use whatever standard they see fit and their insurer will allow.  There are more than a few non-nsp volunteer patrol around that use it and I believe many pro patrols use EMT standards instead of OEC.

 

MMSP is a high quality patrol, that is for sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VT-108 View Post

If you've every been to Stowe and skied Starr or National, then you know what I'm talking about.  The MMSP test requires 4 perfect runs in a row down with no tail rope down Starr or National.  The director wanted everybody patrolling to pass the MMSP sled test.  There were also a few other issues over procedures and qualifications.  The MMSP is a state licensed first responder service, and all members are EMT-B trained at minimum,

post #103 of 103

You are right that the MMSP is quality, and SMR is self insured (by AIG), so the only thing dictating the patrol policy is internal and the state regulations for EMS, which means no 10 codes among other things.

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