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What type of skis for super g?

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 
I'm considering doing a super g race next year assuming I get enough training in before hand so I feel somewhat "comfortable".

What type/length of ski and lifter would I want? Should I pick up an older ski with less shape in like 204cm? Or a shaped in 198cm or even less? I've got a pair of Volkl P40 f1's (99/00,red/white) 193cm I could mount a deflex plate or similar to perhaps.
post #2 of 31
Tog, may I ask what kind of SuperG race are you considering? USSA, Masters, ASRA?

Speed does not kill, the difference in it does...
post #3 of 31
Thread Starter 
It would be Masters class 3 probably in the eastern US.
post #4 of 31

You should certainly get some good input from the real racers here, but my suggestion would be a good stiff ski in the 26-30 meter radius range. The ski I was on last year and the year before made a great Super G ski. It was a 197cm Dynastar Speed SF (I'm 200#). It's a stiff, heavy, wood core ski with a 27 meter radius, square sidewalls, a 62mm waist, very damp for a stiff speed ski, and comes with a race lifter (exactly like a D-Flex or EPB plate). The ski was an absolute rocket and amazingly stable at warp scary speeds. And it holds ice like nobody's business. It was a bit long and stiff for my little ski area, but when I could let them run, look out (literally!). I believe the dimentions are 100-62-82<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by JohnH (edited May 01, 2001).]</FONT>
post #5 of 31
A super G ski should not be too reactive to terrain or skier input. It also needs to have good glide speed. Take your choice between a short super G around 200-205 cm with a soft plate or a GS ski around the same length (198-203)without too fat a tail. Fat tails will tend to slow you down in the gliding sections. Use a stiffer plate to slow down the reaction of the ski to terrain input. JohnH's response works for me. Incidently, FIS Super G turn radius minimum is 33M. Unless you are going to the Internationals, don’t worry about this. I’m not even sure Nationals would care.
post #6 of 31
I have raced the Master's SG at Mt Snow, and coached at JI/II SG races at Waterville and Cranmore. GS skis would have been just fine on both of those courses, especially WV & Cranmore, which were really just very fast GS courses.
post #7 of 31
For most Masters Super G courses, an older (4-6 year) GS ski will work wonderfully. Use a vibration damping riser like a D(erby)-Flex or PowerflexPlate and risers to bring the boot under surface to 55mm. If you go with something about 10-15cm longer than what you currently use for GS, you'll be fine. For FIS set GS, I use a 198cm, and for Masters set I use 193cm. For FIS SG, 209-214cm depending on the set, and masters SG is 198-209cm, again dependant on the set.

Masters GS courses are really Glaloms (too open to be slalom, but too tight to be GS). A true GS has minimum 22m between the turning gates. Most masters GS courses are set at around 18m. Masters Super Gs are generally set like maximum spaced FIS GS courses, with a few open areas.
post #8 of 31
I heard Mr. PoundKey has a great deal on some slightly used Atomic 217s.
post #9 of 31
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the replies.
John, I remember demoing the Dynastar SF and liking it's dampness yet it's still very responsive.
The p40's dimensions are 100-63-86. I guess with a plate on it the 193 might do. Sounds like the Dynastar's narrower tail would be better. I've seen some around in 198.

The goal here is to make it down the course safely not worrying about placing. (Though after one race this could be out the window as the obsession takes over) So I would lean towards the safer setup rather than the fastest setup. I suppose that means less reactive and less shape?

How's a dedicated super g ski different? Less shape, stiffer, damper? Where does one get these? From a rep? Though I guess I'd get mine used anyway.

What about plates. Epb's are more of a free flex plate? I've heard someone talk about the deflex and how it squishes on the side as you turn making it less responsive. I suppose this could actually be a good thing for a novice. VIST? I see they make varying degrees of flex for their plates. Do these have a rubber/adhesive attachment to the ski also?

Do you use a 1 deg. base bevel for super g?

Ed, don't you have Masters race "camps" at Loveland in November? I'd be interested in info.

Ahh, a whole new world...
post #10 of 31

Wanna buy my 197 Speed SFs? They're not in the greatest shape in the world, because of the dent in the base, which cracked the sidewall just slightly, but they still flex as they are supposed to and the edges and base are, otherwise, in great shape. They have about 60 days on them. They have Look 9.0 Pivots on them, currently mounted for a 323mm sole (Lange 10-10.5 or 28-28.5 shell), with the race plates. I also have the regular Look binding lifters between the plate and binding. I used the thicker one under the toe to get rid of the binding delta. Or if you'd like to, and your boot fits the current mount, I'd probably be willing to let you borrow them, for the cost of shipping (to and from).

edit: Also, I had the bases stoned flat, with a flat base edge and a 1.5 degree sidewall bevel. However, if you want to borrow them, you can have them tuned however you'd like.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by JohnH (edited May 02, 2001).]</FONT>
post #11 of 31
Super G skis are much closer to downhills than GS skis. They are a bit shorter, mine are 205’s, with more side cut. True SG skis are more damp and comfortable at high speed than GS. However, in a masters race, you will see sets that vary from slightly looser GS sets to almost downhills. I know lots of racers in RMD that take a long GS and a SG to a race.

VIST makes a bunch of different kinds of plates. The World Cup plate would be fine on the GS for SG. I use a softer plate called the Absorber on my SG skis. I use the World Cup plate on my GS skis. Contact Stockli in the fall. Also you can order SG skis from Stockli USA for the fall.

How to get SG ski. Contact the race rep for the brand you want (it doesn’t really matter) in your area. To find the name of the person if you don’t know, the masters organization may know, or call the importer. It may take some tracking. The local shop reps will likely also know. If you don’t have a USSA number, get one. They typically will need some “proof” you’re serious about racing. Some won’t sell to masters, others will.

We don’t have a masters camp in November. We have a number of World Cup, various levels of US, and regional teams training. Our masters racers train with our ability and FIS racers.
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[This message has been edited by edgreen (edited May 02, 2001).]</FONT>
post #12 of 31
Hey Ed Green
How much does waist width matter in a SG ski?
I thinking about picking up some Elan GSX skis in a 198 to run SG, their claimed dimensions are 94-60-84. Seems kind of narrow to me but maybe that's good in a speed event ski.

Thanks in advance
post #13 of 31
Thread Starter 
I take it you use the Absorber on the GS skis because it's lift with dampening and doesn't stiffen the ski? Do you use the DuoV10,DuoV16, or V12? The World Cup Race V16 would make the ski a little stiffer and more reactive?
Interestingly, Stockli.com didn't have as much info as this dealer in Vermont:

Also about plates/lift. Doesn't lift make it slower to get on edge since the knee has to move further in? (I had an argument about this once at a shop)You can apply more force though right? It works the reverse too right? Meaning small movements of the ski can apply larger forces to the knee? This is why you don't want to jack yourself too far up?

will you be involved at all in the Olympics next year?

thanks<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Tog (edited May 07, 2001).]</FONT>
post #14 of 31

I'll email you.

I agree with the argument that the taller you are, the further you have to move to get to the other edge. However, racers have proven that the benefits outweigh the negatives. The other advantage, is that there is less chance of boot out. since the widest part of the boot is further from the snow.

post #15 of 31

I stack up to 55 mm for everything. Last year I used the tallest Absorber plate on the GS skis. This year I went to The tallest World Cup plate. Also the tall Absorber on the SG's. I'm using the shorter Absorber on SL's. Differences in stack I make up with riser plates.

As far as working the Olympics, USSA wants us to host four days of NorAm slaloms in November. If we do that, I'll have all the raking and shoveling I need. I may go to SLC as a spectator.
post #16 of 31
Thread Starter 
Well I attempted to register with Ussa today. Before faxing the form in I called them just to see if you can fax it in.
"Of course, no problem. But it's only good until June 30th."
Huh? Can't you put it towards next year's membership?
"No, you'll have to send it in after June 30th"

Arrgghhh! Truly bizarre. They don't understand I NEED to do it NOW?!

Anyway, I've seen some Atomics 10-26 in 203cm for sale. Would these be considered super g construction or gs? <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Tog (edited May 03, 2001).]</FONT>
post #17 of 31

What part of the eastern US are you from?
post #18 of 31
The construction of 203 10.26 GS would not have the same construction as the Atomic SG's. The SG's are a traditional wood, glass, metal sandwitch, no beta technology at all.
post #19 of 31
Thread Starter 
Live in NYC, ski in Vermont
post #20 of 31

You can use my USSA number to order if they must ship to that account I live in central NJ.
post #21 of 31
Tog, though I'm not trying to be, I might come off as sounding elitist and snotty. At this point in your racing, concentrate on technique and not technology. If you want to race SuperG, you will need a straighter than current GS ski, anywhere from 10-20cm longer than you currently use for GS. Construction, flex, color, etc will have no bearing on results until you become technically proficient enough. If the 10.26 is a good bargain, get it. Compared to the current 10.22, it is straighter (yet way more shaped than true SG skis), and longer, possibly making an ideal SuperG ski for someone just starting out. If you are really interested in a true SuperG ski, you will have to search for a women's model. The men's version WILL be too long.

Contrary to most people's thoughts, DH and SG skis are relatively soft flexing. Certain risers stiffen up the waist of the ski, but since there is less sidecut, the softness of the flex allows the ski to bend so a clean arc can be carved. The speed event skis are also quite damp, so that having soft shovels don't start flapping around at speed. Speed event skis are also very heavy, weighing around 30 pounds including risers and bindings (I've skied with 3 pair over my shoulders too many times).

Masters race courses are WAY turnier than true FIS courses. This is for all events. One ex CDN National team member who came second this year at 24HRs of Aspen and raced the Ford King of the Mountain series fore-ran a Masters race DH on his 198 GS skis, and had the fastest time by 5 seconds. It is a testament to how turny the tracks are, and how technique is more important than technology.
post #22 of 31
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the info. Yes, I'm not really concerned about having the "proper" ski, just interested in what people actually use. Very few people really know about this stuff. In terms of the race the skis are hardly going to matter as I'll be dropping tenths (even seconds!) left and right.

How much more do you crank up your DIN setting for speed events. (Yikes-the scary part)

Yuki,thanks, no need to ship anything now. Are you going up to Killington this weekend?
post #23 of 31
Tog, DIN is a very personal issue. Calculated DIN for me is 10. I ski my SL @ 12, GS @ 14, SG @ 15-17, and DH @ 16-18. I try to avoid using 13. Binding settings, bib numbers, or what ever else. Just personal bad luck with that number.

When setting DIN you have to take into account all particulars. If the track is rough or icy, up the DIN. I have had more injuries from skis releasing at speed than from crashing and my ski not comiing off. Actually, my skis have always come off when they had to, even pinned at 18.

For finding out your DIN, go to this site.
post #24 of 31
By Rio:"I heard Mr. PoundKey has a great deal on some slightly used Atomic 217s."

##### Funny guy. Seriously though, has anyone ever tried to take a bend out of a ski? Mine starts about 12" back from the shovel and is about 15-20 deg.#####

"Caput tuum in ano est"
post #25 of 31

I'll probably be going up Thursday thru
Saturday of this coming week..... in order to make it home by Mothers Day.

This will probably be the last fling for a few of our race team kids.

This mogul talk has me intrigued however. I quit doing bumps after a bad bout of Lyme disease..... actually, I quit everything for awhile because of that crap....... horrible stuff. But it's about time I got back and Killington may be the place.
post #26 of 31
Thread Starter 
I've seen people bend back skis by wedging in an open stair and just prying. I'm not sure I'd want to ski on a speed ski after that though. But here's a place to try for the scoop: call or email The Race Place and ask the owner Scott Holmer. To find them on the web search for "beast tuning" otherwise it's really hard to find by the store name.

Yuki, I think I might go to Tuckerman next weekend. But there's a chance for Killington..(there is zero snow other than ski trails up there though,and those trails are fading fast)
post #27 of 31

I bent a Dynastar S9 the day before my level 3 exam. It has a fair amount of metal in it, since it's a sace SL ski. I put it upside down, between two chairs, and sat on it for a few hours. It actually seemed to work pretty well, and the skis skied normally. When I went to send the skis back (they were still under warranty), I had to do the opposite to get the bend back into it. You need to be able to keep your feet on the floor so that you can take some of your weight off it. You don't want to bend it too far or too fast, or you might break some of the core materials.
post #28 of 31
Thread Starter 
Back to the topic, opinions on these skis? (I know it doesn't really matter in terms of my time but this is interesting so humor me)

Atomic 10.26 203cm.........................................97,6 2,88 (26m)
(there's a 'race stock' and normal avail.)

Salomon Race stock (2v?) 200cm....................97,65,87

Stockli Laser AX-R 99/00 201cm.......................92,61,86 (28m)

Rossignol Super g 208cm '98............................92,62,81

Volkl P40 99/00 race stck (laminate)198cm.....100,63,86

Any significant difference between a atomic race stock 10.26 (it's beta) and normal?

I see evidence of what ed was talking about in the skinny tail of the rossi super g. Does the large tip on all except the stockli make them more reactive? (uh...more dangerous for the novice? i.e. knees)

It may just come down to price anyway. <FONT size="1">
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[This message has been edited by Tog (edited May 08, 2001).]</FONT>
post #29 of 31
Given the types of courses you can expect to be skiing, I would eliminate the Stockli & Rossi. The others all sound fine.

The Atomic race stock will be stiffer, perhaps stiffer than you need. Some race stock Atomics last year also had a 9mm (instead of 17mm) plate, and we supposed to be used with the Race (not RaceRace) binding, which has a bit of extra lift. But given what a true race machine even the retail store ski is, my rec would be to avoid the race stock.
post #30 of 31
Thread Starter 
Thanks everyone for the help!
Allright, just so you know I've purchased a pair of race stock volkl p40's 198cm 99/00 yr. Ummmm they look nice.
I've got probably 70-80 days on the 193cm production model so I've got a good feel for the ski. Were I out west I might have gone with the 203 atomic but many here think the courses are pretty turny. Apparently some people are even doing them with skis in the 180's!
Any suggestions on base bevel and structure?
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