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Pressure - the forgotten skill? - Page 3

post #61 of 73
Originally Posted by RicB
Well Pierre, do you mean to say that because it is all connected, that it can't be seperated by intent and outcome?
Why of course not. PSIA will let us interpret any way we would like to.

Even teaching movements we still need to distinguish between the intent and the outcome don't we? Isn't the real issue that the human body is so interconnected and complicated that oversimpifying and/or seperating things out can leaves us a little short.
But of course. I just realize the fact that stance has to be within certain limits before the other skills of P,E.R are very effectively worked on. P,E,R all work to better fine tune balance and stance. As you say all of the other skills work within the circle of balance.

All I am noting here is that although they are upright and skiing, a vast number of skiers are so close to the edge of the balance circle that they are very restricted in movement patterns available. Much of the time this is equipment related and all the working on movements to get them centered will largely be in vain. Much of the time it can also be movement related. Our first job is the get them centered. That job I lump under stance and balance work. Doing so keeps my focus where it needs to be.

This note is listed under Stance and Balance by the D team:
.Note:Insufficient forward movement promotes inclination of the upper body and weaker lower body angles. In addition you may see over-pivoting of the skis, late pressure application and diverence of the ski tips. Avoid pressure control mvements at the end of the turn originating from the knees and hips.
This clearly leaves the door open to lump fore/aft under stance and balance. It also leaves the door wide open to interpreting this as primarily controlled by pressure managment. I think it is significant though that these notes are not listed under pressure control but under stance and balance.

Putting this under pressure managment does not serve the problems associated with equipment as good as lumping it under stance and balance. I have been doing alignments now for three years and have come to understand that equipment problems and their associated compensating movement patterns need to be separated from straight inefficient movement patterns in order to address pressure control. Once the equipment problems are worked out the whole thing can switch to pressure control if that is now the inefficient movement patterns that are causing the imbalance.

The reason that pressure control seems to be the last element to fall into place for most skiers is that its the first skill to go by the wayside with equipment and alignment problems. Solve the stance and equipment problems and the pressure control to keep the CM flowing well falls into place.

The way I prefer to work is Stance/Balance/Equipment then Pressure Control then edging then rotary. I guess this comes from my understanding of PMTS and working on my own skiing. Notice I say "prefer". The guest may not prefer that method or may be in rental gear.
post #62 of 73
Originally Posted by RicB
In the end I still agree with the Neuralphysiologist Hanaford when she says, "Successful movement requires secure balance, which depends on a sophisticated proprioceptive system constantly aligning every part of the body". To me this is why it is very valid to have Balance as a skill encompassing the other movement skills. Balancing with the human body is an activity if we want to take both Roberts and Hannaford as valid. But then, that is something our students already know. Later, RicB.
The section I've bolded highlights exactly the problems with calling the main skill "stance and balance". The notion of stance conjures up a static position.

But Hanaford states that the positioning of the body is anything but static. We are "constantly aligning every part of the body".

I prefer the term "positioning and balance".

Then saying "centered" or "aligned against the forces in a turn" gives the notion that these positions are different and require movement to acheive.

To clarify by example: "countered" makes sense if you talk of "positioning" (you have to move to acheive it). But countered" conflicts with "stance" (which sounds so very static).

It's a really little thing, but it can help open the door to pro-active movement; it broadens the understanding of movement in skiing.

Hanaford also says it is the proprioceptive system that is responsible for us to be able to move effectively. Pressure sensing plays a huge role in this regard. Which supports the notion that balance/position and pressure control are the number one and two skills, with E/R lower in the food chain.

That's my 2 cents.....

post #63 of 73
Originally Posted by BigE
The section I've bolded highlights exactly the problems with calling the main skill "stance and balance". The notion of stance conjures up a static position
Why? It does not conjure up a static position in my mind at all. I conjures up an image of a dynamically aligned skeletal/muscular structure.
post #64 of 73
Its semantics. Like Pierre,the word stance doesn't conjure a static image to me but the word positioning does make me think of moveing to a static position and then holding it. For Big E and others its the opposite..Again, always check that you and the student have the same understanding of the words that you are using.

post #65 of 73
Thread Starter 
So you see, Pressure is the forgotten skill. You guys ghave forgotten all about it and moved on to stance and balance. We already have 100 threads on that.

post #66 of 73
balance/position and pressure control are the number one and two skills, with E/R lower in the food chain.
Try this on for size, Big E. I maintain all four skills are necessary in skiing, but the proportions change to fit the situation. To argue that one's more important than the other misses the point: the skills are combined to create the right blend, not one blend. An analogy that works for me is baking. You need flour, eggs, butter, and sugar to bake just about anything, but there's a world of difference between shortbread (lots of butter, very little sugar) and a souffle (lots of eggs, little flour). I think the best baker is the one who can make endless delicious combinations of the four ingredients. Does the analogy hold?
post #67 of 73

It does hold. I'v been using it for years. The same four ingredients can make a cookie a cake or a French currler (sp). The four skills of skiing can be mixed to create high speed arcs, and open paralell turn or hop turns in a steep narrow chute. Its one analogy that everyone seem to grasp and can apply to their skiing.

post #68 of 73
No doubt you are right nolo,

This is from the CSIA manual: "skiing and teaching methods":

Balance as a dynamic process
Balance is not a static position but a continual series of adjustments to external stimuli. This is especially true in skiing where the forces trying to throw the skier out of balance are strong and varied. To “stay in balance”, the body reacts to the sensory feedback it receives from the inner ear, visual cues and the sensation of pressure distribution under the feet. Muscular activity keeps the skeleton upright and the COM over the BOS. Balance movements function in all directions: fore-aft, side to side, up and down, and rotationally.

(my bolding). I am focusing on the "sensation of pressure distrubution under the feet" in my own heirarchy of skills.

In terms of the sequence of learning the skills, I'd choose to teach PC above either rotary or edging, because it's easier to induce movement in the skier. And it's easy to feel and discuss the bio-feedback the student gets from doing PC movements. So, one learns to maintain balance while moving and getting bio-feedback: critical to do before rotary/edging which are much more demanding.

Once PC and balance are firmly established then the question is -- should you teach edge or rotary first?

I say that part depends on the student.

What I am also saying is stance/balance and pressure control must be addressed first. That to me, does NOT depend on the student.
post #69 of 73
I'm with you BigE. Especially for the intermediate to advanced skier. All the edging and rotary skills in the world won't get us down the mountain if we can't manage the pressure between the skis and the snow and the snow surface and our CoM. Later, Ricb.
post #70 of 73

FWIW, we have 5 skills up here. Timing and coordination is the fifth. It is considered a foundation skill.

It is the skill of choosing how much of each, when and in what sequence to place the other four.
post #71 of 73
I don't teach the skills per se: all right, class, today we're going to focus on rotary movements! The class wouldn't understand. They'd think they were supposed to ski with heavy rotary. I just focus on stance & balance and let everything else come situationally. One thing I have learned in 25 years of ski teaching is that people listen really well when you are teaching them something that will be immediately useful.
post #72 of 73
How about direction? That's my fifth. Maybe synonymous with yours.
post #73 of 73
This is T&C as we define it:

Originally Posted by CSIA skiing and teaching methods


Timing as decision making
Timing is the skiers’ interaction with their environment as they learn to interpret situations and apply skills in the right blend and sequence. In any situation, the skier adjusts the timing of their movements for the desired result. This aspect of skiing is developed through free skiing and guided mileage.

Coordination of movements
Spatial awareness and motor skills are the tools for balance, and skiers coordinate their
movements to control their motion down the slope. Natural athletic ability determines much of a skier’s coordination but it can be developed at any level. Developing muscular and sensory response lets a skier react precisely and quickly. Warming up, varied skill progressions and repetition of key movements will help develop coordination.

Timing and Coordination for development levels
At a beginner level timing and coordination means developing mobility, and rhythm through serpentine turns. With more speed the challenge is changing both edges simultaneously, and developing a range of movement for better edging and pressure control. With mileage the motor responses are quicker and more instinctive and the task is refining the sensory skills and decision making. At any level timing and coordination determines the successful application of the other skills.
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