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Carving ? - Page 2

post #31 of 54
1st off none of use are pulling the G-forces that the WCers are are. Secondly, the strength it takes is in direct relation to your own weigh to strength ratio. Now with that said, if you are skeletally stacked & in balance on your skis it is damn near effortless and uses very little energy to carve turns. I don't really think you can stacked thsi way and skid your turns down the hill. Your comparison of a top trained athelete at the demands of the World Cup to a recreational skier making some railroad track carved turns is ridiculous. No comparison. And I take issue with the fact that the strongest skier is the best! What happened to finesse and technique and in speed aerodynamics is huge.

It is all a function of your own strength to weight ratio not your slide to carve ratio!
post #32 of 54
I can certainly generate higher G-forces carving turns than skidding them, and for some perverse reason I usually do try to get as high a g-force as possible (I have this problem on motorcycles too).

You can carve a turn with very little effort, keeping an upright stance with very little bend in the knee. Perhaps for most people, this is what they do, but if you want to push it to the limit, you will have to get a little lower and use some extension/retraction as you feel the edges and manage the pressure to maintain the best grip on the snow. If you are doing this with as much G-force as the snow/ice can take you will be getting a lot of exercise.

Once you understand that by making subtle changes in edging and fore-aft balance you can control what forces the snow is applying to your skis, it requires minimal muscular effort to do skidded turns. Whether they are "pivot" turns or not I will leave to the linguistically better informed. Put your ski on edge with a slight weight shift to the inside of the turn and a slight forward wieght bias and the snow grabs your ski tip and pivots it around with hardly any effort on your part. What's more the amount of force usually generated by a skidding ski does not ammount to too much work to resist.

In a nut shell: If you are a novice pivot-skidded turns are hard work. If you are better at it skidded turns are easy. Carving turns are as easy or hard as you want to make them on your legs.
post #33 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
Carving turns are as easy or hard as you want to make them on your legs.
Nice!

Why couldn't I have put it that simply!
post #34 of 54
1st off none of use are pulling the G-forces that the WCers are are.

Well, first off, how do you know? You guys were very quick to pronounce da-bum wrong. You know absolutely nothing about how he skis. For all you know, he could be a US Ski Team member. I would submit that anyone here who makes a given-radius *pure* carved turn at the same speed as a WCupper and weighs the same is pulling exactly the same amount of G's.

Secondly, the strength it takes is in direct relation to your own weigh to strength ratio.

Ummmm, why? I'm not even sure what a "weight-to-strength ratio" is, but the amount of force it takes to complete the turn depends on weight, speed, turn radius, and snow conditions. Whether I *have* the strength or not is immaterial to how much strength I *need*. And by merely saying what you just said, aren't you confirming that a fast, pure, carved turn requires more strength than a skidded one???

Now with that said, if you are skeletally stacked & in balance on your skis it is damn near effortless and uses very little energy to carve turns.

Agreed - assuming you're making that low-energy, long-radius turn on a low-energy slope with good conditions.

I don't really think you can stacked thsi way and skid your turns down the hill.

Come ski with me. I'm the king of the skidded turn.


Your comparison of a top trained athelete at the demands of the World Cup to a recreational skier making some railroad track carved turns is ridiculous.

If you read what I said, I never made any comparison of the sort. I was comparing WC racers to WC racers.

And I take issue with the fact that the strongest skier is the best! What happened to finesse and technique and in speed aerodynamics is huge.

Would you call Bode Miller the best "finesse and technique" skier on the World Cup? I know he's one of the strongest. As is Hermann. Also, it wasn't *my* assertion, it was the opinion of someone who actually skied on the circuit.

Bob
post #35 of 54
Bob,

You now know who is the strongest of these guys. Come on! Rahlves looks pretty beastly to me!

But keep in mind Benni Raich is smaller and more finnessful than all of the above and finished every single run the entire season and won the SL & GS title! Is he the srongest?

I would also be leery of someone who brags about their sliding ability??

Sorry to be harsh but I agree with little of what you have said!

Over & out!

And freeskiing you would seldomly if ever generate any kind of the forces the World Cuppers do in an actlual race course. Come on man?????
post #36 of 54
That's not a smile on Herman Maier's face when he is carving down the course, it looks like extreme exertion, unless you think he is in extreme fear from the steeps and speed.

If carving requires no effort, why aren't GS races the whole length of the mountain?

I assume people meant park and ride type of carve, since it is a no thought process, not unlike a skidded turn.

Or its just that you guys out in the west have to skid through layers of snow while here in the east, there is no obstacle skidding through ice.

BTW, The most common way for me to get that rush is to pull as high G-force a turn as possible all the time, or else what's the point of skiing (besides extreme speed).
post #37 of 54
If the skidding is from braking movements then it is much more tiring than carving at moderate speeds on a moderate hill. Allowing the skis to skid in a brushed/guided non-braking turn is the least strenuous way to ski that I know of. I can do this all day every day and not get worn out and go back to do it the next day. High speed carving or carving on steeper terrain drains me physically in anywhere from a run to a half day and I can feel the effects of a day spent at speed on the edges the following day. I would tend to think that those who view skidding as more tiring are using braking movements when they skid.

yd
post #38 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by da-bum
That's not a smile on Herman Maier's face when he is carving down the course, it looks like extreme exertion, unless you think he is in extreme fear from the steeps and speed.

If carving requires no effort, why aren't GS races the whole length of the mountain?

I assume people meant park and ride type of carve, since it is a no thought process, not unlike a skidded turn.

Or its just that you guys out in the west have to skid through layers of snow while here in the east, there is no obstacle skidding through ice.

BTW, The most common way for me to get that rush is to pull as high G-force a turn as possible all the time, or else what's the point of skiing (besides extreme speed).
Hermann has that look on his face in the start gate, when he is redirecting, when he is flying in an upside down "V" down an Olympic DH run, when he is standing in finish after his run is over and when he is at home sleeping!

Please stop comparing World cup racers in a course going 90 MPH to your average rec skier capable of carving a decent turn!!!!!

And pleeez don't compare your effort on the hill to that of the Hermannator, sacrelig, I say!

And nobody said it took no effort! But it doesn't take this enourmous amount of strength compared to sliding you keep talking about!
post #39 of 54

built in

Ok you could go on for ever on this topic. IMO you should be able to have a bag of tricks{many a method of turning your skis}skidding ,carving, steering, pivoting,quasi carve etc. Here's on example why you should embrace carving.
All modern ski equipment{yes even your old KVC'comps or Rossi 4s} were designed w/ turns built in them per say. Would you use a hammer to turn screws? Hopefully not, skis are designed like tools to have an intended uses{carving is one of them} So go bang nails damit!

some other reasons to carve

- Allows you to ski faster in greater balance and control

- Carving will strengthen your other styles of turns{skiing} short, bumps, powder, park, pipe etc.

- You get to make perfect thin lines in the snow{closest thing to perfection on snow if thats you thing}

-Feels really cool to pull some Gs

-Eventually as you progress it won't feel like your carving. It will feel like your skiing.
post #40 of 54
I'm a big advocate of skier-centered instruction. If it feels fine to you, that's fine. Your assumption is right, SkierXMan. It doesn't matter if you carve. If you feel you've improved to the point that you are enjoying yourself, that you are comfortable on the slopes, continue to do what you do. If you need an example to bolster your confidence, bear in mind that I've seen top flight masters racers/FIS coaches carve when they practice in the gates, but slide all their turns when they free ski on the slope with everyone else. These guys are pretty secure in themselves. They also free ski to take in the scenery, enjoy the snow, and have fun getting down the mountain with friends.
post #41 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by ydnar
If the skidding is from braking movements then it is much more tiring than carving at moderate speeds on a moderate hill. Allowing the skis to skid in a brushed/guided non-braking turn is the least strenuous way to ski that I know of. I can do this all day every day and not get worn out and go back to do it the next day. High speed carving or carving on steeper terrain drains me physically in anywhere from a run to a half day and I can feel the effects of a day spent at speed on the edges the following day. I would tend to think that those who view skidding as more tiring are using braking movements when they skid.

yd
YD, around these parts we call this the Ambassador turn. Named after the retired ski ambassadors that our hill gives a free pass to to help out on the mountain. They have developed this turn into an art form of two legs being one and two skis being one. Skidding their way down the groomers, they put out little energy, and ski fairly fast.

Really I see both sides being right here. Skidded turns can require alot of energy if you need to overcome the ski/snow interaction to control direction, especially if the snow is not wanting to let you do this with your skis. The same can be said for carving. Carving by simply guiding the ski/snow interaction can require little effort if the speed and forces are small. Like the above "ambasador turns". Dial up the speed and the forces get larger and the energy required gets grows quickly.

It is not all black and white is it? On the groom isn't there an argument to be made that the energy we need to put into our skiing is the energy we intend to put into our skiing? All other things being equal. Later, RicB.
post #42 of 54
Hello skiers,
I would like to add my analysis to this discussion. The total force is comprised of a component of G force and centripetal force.

G force does not change. What changes is centripetal force and centripetal force is the force that is required to constantly change the inertia of the CM (accelerate the CM - accelerate does not mean make it go faster, it means make it change direction or speed). Without the application of centripetal force the CM would move in a straight line tangential to the point on the arc at which one is.

Bob Peters was right about weight, speed, radius and conditions - though I'll leave conditions out. It's obvious that to accelerate at a faster rate, a greater force is required.

Skidding does not change the direction of the CM as much as carving. Skidding can change the direction (attitude) which the body is facing very fast but it doesn't change how far the CM has actually moved laterally (across the hill) as well as carving.

In a turn in which the skiers musculo-skeletal system is perfectly stacked for the speed, radius and body structure of the skier, the energy expended is less than if not perfectly stacked. But what happens when the body is not perfectly stacked for the speed and radius? Skidding. Practice, practice, practice. When skidding in this manner, a skier is fighting to stay on line, this is VERY tiring.

It is also tiring to skid the entry of a turn beyond the fall-line and then try to get directional change (across the hill) in the later part of a turn - trying to get "traction" in a groove all at once.

If the turn is started above the fall-line, the gravitational component is actually on our side. If a skier can get the pressure down early, gravity will help in changing the direction of the CM. It helps to get the turn established early.

All that being said skidding has its place.
post #43 of 54
I never said skidding didn't have it's place. the issue was not skidding vs. carving. As said above you need a "Felix the Cat" bag of tricks.

The issue was at hand was that carving takes more strength then skidding.

I don't believe that is always the case!

As said above it is not that black & white.
post #44 of 54
Quote:
In a turn in which the skiers musculo-skeletal system is perfectly stacked for the speed, radius and body structure of the skier, the force required is less than if not perfectly stacked. But what happens when the body is not perfectly stacked for the speed and radius? Skidding. Practice, practice, practice. When skidding in this manner, a skier is fighting to stay on line, this is VERY tiring.
It is easy to have skeletal system from both legs stacked when skidding since you are not exerting as much centripetal force (as in so called Ambassador turns), but when really carve, the inside leg, which should be exerting close to half the centripetal force, cannot be stacked, in fact, it is frequently at a angle in which it has the least amount of mechanical advantage. In fact, if you try some high-G carves with all the weight on the inside ski while still at a normal carving stance (meaning no straightening of inside leg with outside leg in the air), your body would very likely collapse due to your leg's inability to hold it up. This is especially true if the inside leg is not your dominant one.
post #45 of 54
It's now apples to oranges. The ambassador turn vs. the WC turn with inside leg rolled up under the body.

How about just comparing turns of the SAME radius on the SAME hill, instead of high-G extreme edge angle SR turns vs lollygagging skids?

What I'm talking about is a pivotted skidded turn vs a carved stacked turn. Is it not obvious that direct steering is much harder than letting the skis turn? Or that simply maintaining parallel skis takes more effort when skidding (especially in variable conditions)than when they are engaged?

The counter argument that "If if was easier, then I could ski hell bent for leather all day and not feel it" is just nuts.
post #46 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by da-bum
It is easy to have skeletal system from both legs stacked when skidding since you are not exerting as much centripetal force (as in so called Ambassador turns), but when really carve, the inside leg, which should be exerting close to half the centripetal force, cannot be stacked, in fact, it is frequently at a angle in which it has the least amount of mechanical advantage. In fact, if you try some high-G carves with all the weight on the inside ski while still at a normal carving stance (meaning no straightening of inside leg with outside leg in the air), your body would very likely collapse due to your leg's inability to hold it up. This is especially true if the inside leg is not your dominant one.
What has this got to do with anything we have been talking about?
post #47 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
How about just comparing turns of the SAME radius on the SAME hill, instead of high-G extreme edge angle SR turns vs lollygagging skids?
OK, ask two good skiers (i.e. they can both carve and skid as required) to make short and medium turns down a run-of-the-mill black diamond run.

Is there any doubt that the carver will have to work very hard to bend the ski into short turns and manage speed with aggressive carves? Is there any doubt as to who will work harder?

I am not sure what you have in mind when you think about carving and skidding, but I don't think good skiers need to pivot too much in order to make a short turn. Carving a short turns is much harder and, in fact, somewhat impossible on longer skis. Doesn't all this make sense?
post #48 of 54
It was strength that is at issue not effort. I don't think they are the same thing.

And yes on a Black diamond run it takes more strength to carve than slide.

But not on a green or easy blue!
post #49 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkierXMan
This may sound like a really dumb newbie question but why should someone learn to carve? What is the big deal and how is it better than another technique?

I took a package of lessons this year and on my final lesson my instructor was showing me how one starts using the edge to make a turn rather than skidding and pivoting etc. Through all the instruction and discussions etc I was listening but just now the question pops up in my mind what is the advanatage? I was just told that is the next thing I should learn and it is something you do to advance.

To be honest the way I am skiing now doesn't really bother me and I am having fun and am just curious as to what carving will do to make things more fun?
Methinks the thread has strayed quite a bit.

One should learn to carve because it will provide you with another very fun option. It will bring your skills to a higher level, which will open up more skiable terrain for you.

It is better than skidding turns, as it is faster and a more efficient use of your energy -- you can ski more runs in a day using carving than you can with skidding skills.

Knowing how to carve demands that your edging, pressure control, stance/balance skills improve. There are sensations in carving that cannot be matched in skidded turns. Many find these sensations very addictive. I really like the feel of a carved turn; it's WAY more fun, and I feel that I have WAY more control.

Carving means that you can balance on edge and ride the ski through the turn. Since you are on edge, you have a stable platform upon which to balance. That can let you relax a little in each turn. When you are carving, you are moving with gravity, and you control speed by how tight how far back across the hill you choose to turn.

Usually, when folks control speed with skidding turns, they use braking actions, which oppose gravity and so are more tiring....

hope that helps
post #50 of 54
Atomicman,

We got off onto this tangent talking about which was more tiring carve or skid, strength came in later. As far as tiring me out brushed, non-braking turns are easiest, recreational carving next, braking skids after that and the most tiring of all is when I do go out and try to ski like HM. I might not come very close to skiing like a WCer but dealing with the forces I generate when I try is the hardest thing I do on skis.

yd
post #51 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by ydnar
Atomicman,

We got off onto this tangent talking about which was more tiring carve or skid, strength came in later. As far as tiring me out brushed, non-braking turns are easiest, recreational carving next, braking skids after that and the most tiring of all is when I do go out and try to ski like HM. I might not come very close to skiing like a WCer but dealing with the forces I generate when I try is the hardest thing I do on skis.

yd
I'll buy that!!!!
post #52 of 54
Quote:
What has this got to do with anything we have been talking about?
It means skeletal stacking cannot apply when one half of the centripetal force comes from the leg that has its skeletal structure perpendicular to each other.

Quote:
Usually, when folks control speed with skidding turns, they use braking actions, which oppose gravity and so are more tiring....
But you are not working completely against gravity when doing the brake skid because the sliding aspect is you letting gravity pull you out of that g-force turn, that compared to carving where you are not giving one bit to gravity, instead countering 100% of it by applying the counter centripetal force.
post #53 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by da-bum
But you are not working completely against gravity when doing the brake skid because the sliding aspect is you letting gravity pull you out of that g-force turn, that compared to carving where you are not giving one bit to gravity, instead countering 100% of it by applying the counter centripetal force.
I'm talking fun carving, not racing.

Don't forget that when you carve and use countering movements, you use the glutes to manage the turn forces -- the strongest muscles in the body. Not so when you skid a turn. Also, you don't have to carve deep trenches to be carving.....

Note that when skidding, the average skier is actively keeping the legs parallel, actively pivotting/rotating the femurs, and are fighting to maintain balance on an unsecure platform. That is a lot of work by the abductors and adductors.

Often those that skid their turns ski like statues -- they get into the belly of the turn and ride it out, usually using knee and hips for pressure control.

IMO, it takes a very advanced skier to be efficient in maintaining good upperbody position when pivotting and skidding turns. Most skiers tire quickly just turning the feet, and trying to hang on while their quads absorb irregularities in the hill. No doubt the direction they move the CM is an issue, but it is more difficult to do so when skidding since the platform is unstable.

OTOH, it is much easier to maintain alignment when carving (recreationally, NOT WC style) because the skeleton is not twisted by the pivot and the edges are locked in the snow giving a solid platform. Furthermore, the feet and ankles are used to maintain balance and guide the positioning of the upper body.

That's my 2 cents.
post #54 of 54
They have snow in Whistler?....
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