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Why PMTS ain't gonna go mainstream. - Page 8

post #211 of 236
skier31:

I agree that HH gets a bit heavy in his critisms of PSIA folk however, I for one agree with the thrust of what JM is often saying with regard to the "fraud" committed at most ski school desks. I have wasted plenty of money on group, private and camp lessons over the years to come to the conclusion that what is being taught and the skill level of those teaching it is far far too often pathetic (probably too strong a word).

I keep reading here that instructors need a big bag of tricks so as to be able to accommodate their students individual learning styles and that PMTS is far too prescriptive. Assuming they are right (I'm not convinced) it would probably be safe to say the skiing population could be broken up into a 80-20 ratio. Twenty % of students need the big bag of tricks and 80% will and can learn effectively from a mostly rigid form of instruction. That surely then is the strength of the PMTS system in that it will cater for the vast majority of skiers. From my experience the traditional system is weak in comparison, far too much individual instructor interpretation from their bag of tricks meaning that the 80% of consumers are getting an inconsistent message.

The sooner the PSIA and ski schools take an approach that deals effectively with the 80% the sooner the public will get value for money.
post #212 of 236
Originally posted by skier_ j:
Quote:
As Ott has said so eloquently many many times, this is a key ingredient of mainstream instruction.

What happens is the PMTS advocates won't/don't admit that their preferred method would work no better or---very likley---no worst than main stream instruction if put through a 1300 person instruction day.

It stands to reason you cannot achieve the results of an 8 to 18 person 4 day camp complete with boot fitting, video feedback and the like in the space of a 50 minute lesson with a rank beginner .__________________
A simple suggestion to encourage the student would be to give them a handout at the end of the lesson outlining in words and diagrams what the instructor has tried to teach them. There is probably only a half dozen basic movements required to establish intermediate level skiing (even less with PMTS). Beginners would get the snow plough wedge handout, the next lesson could be the stem christie handout etc etc. This simple system would at least give the consumer something tangible for their money, also providing them with a tool to study with.

With PMTS the system has all the ingredients to leave the student with a positive feeling of money well spent. I wonder how many of those 1300 get this feeling and are willing to come back for more?

Guys if you structure and resource your system properly you would do yourselves and the skiing public a huge service (even if the movements your teaching are not the most effective). Sorry couldn't help myself!
post #213 of 236
Another thing that comes to mind as I read some of these recent posts.
Joubert, in Skiing an Art a Technique, said something to the effect: If you're athletic enough to do a hockey stop from a parallel straight run, skip the stem (wedge) part and go to the parallel turns. As I recall that was 25 years ago.
post #214 of 236
Ashski, student motivation comes into play when you have these classes, most of them by far are pre-paid groups, mostly high school and Jr. high students, and they will take any opportunity to skip out of class, often just disapearing in the middle of it. The school advisors sit in a special room in the lodge without windows overlooking the slopes and play cards.

Our area long ago started a system of giving the student a sticker on his/her card at the end of the class which then was checked by the advisor on the bus home. Those round stickers were availble over the counter at Staples and most students had a bunch in their pockets and simply put them on their cards themselves...printing a special sticker didn't help much except it put some bucks into resourcefull students pockets who were counterfitting them.

You know where a handout as you suggest would end up? You can guess...

....Ott
post #215 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashski
Originally posted by skier_ j:

A simple suggestion to encourage the student would be to give them a handout at the end of the lesson outlining in words and diagrams what the instructor has tried to teach them. There is probably only a half dozen basic movements required to establish intermediate level skiing (even less with PMTS). Beginners would get the snow plough wedge handout, the next lesson could be the stem christie handout etc etc. This simple system would at least give the consumer something tangible for their money, also providing them with a tool to study with.
A card the size of a business card would remind folks of the drills they did in the lesson, and the key idea that the lesson touched on.

It should have your name on the back, and the ski area's name/number to ensure repeat business.
post #216 of 236
Do the instructors have these cards printed at their own expense? If not, the ski area management should provide them to the 450 instructors at our area, maybe a hundred for a day's worth of lessons to each instructor and maybe a few hundred more per day per instructor because you need to have them for different levels, no?

How many ski schools do you know who would even consider an expense like that, it is bad enough with the stickers, green ones, blue ones and black ones, you never have enough of the right color in your pocket and they come loose and stick to the inside of the pockets and are generally a mess...cards would be better if the area would print them, one could carry a few hundred in the pockets and if you run out of one kind you could always hit up anotrher instructor on the slope to give you some so you don't have to ski to the lodge and take off your skis and lose all your class before you get back..but then those would have the other instructor's name on the back, oh well....

....Ott
post #217 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
Here's a truth that has been repeated by virtually every great ski writer, here by Fred Iselin and A.C. Spectorsky: "...expert skiers, when they are skiing recreationally and for the sheer joy of it, will all ski pretty much alike, especially when the going gets rough."
alike.......and effortlessly.

If I have a view in my mind's eye of expert skiing it is a skier in the very worst conditions skiing in a manner that makes them look like they are on the best of conditions.
post #218 of 236
Bloody hell Ott we can fly to Mars, I am sure we can work out a system of card distribution.

Don't bother with the kids they aren't paying anyway. Keep them for mum and dad or customers that are making a conscious descision to pay for a lesson and whom you might like to get back.

Printing is cheap the resort should pay.

I am sure its not rocket science. Take a break from the forums and figure something out. I reckon your up to it.
post #219 of 236
[quote=Ashski]Bloody hell Ott we can fly to Mars, I am sure we can work out a system of card distribution.

/QUOTE]

Did I hear a bell?? round---what is it now---round 33??

I'm not an instructor so I can't get into a word contest about the mechanical differences ya'all are so quick to point out, that may or may not truly exist.

What I will say is currently, the simple thruth is, here in the US you can't get a PMTS lesson very easily. With relatively few exceptions, you have to sign up and attend a multi day camp that is on par with any of the at least dozen other "specialty" camps that compare to Epicski's academy, Erid D's camps, Weem's sports diamond and a plethora of others. (my apologies for butchering the names)

All, I believe offer similar "extra's" such as alignment clinics, boot balancing, fitness, video analysis to name the most common.

All are not cheap and I suggest that none are aimed at the 1,300 bodies a day beginner level class folks that Ott and others have been talking about.

We need to level the playing field here and have both sides agree that to compare a Mt Hood PMTS camp to a Boston Mills Wednesday afternoon student PE class is absurd.

If we compare a Mt Hood summer race PMTS camp to say Eric D's steeps camp---there is a better framwork for discussion. Still not the same animal---but much much closer.
post #220 of 236
Originally posted by skier_j:[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashski
Bloody hell Ott we can fly to Mars, I am sure we can work out a system of card distribution.

/QUOTE]

Did I hear a bell?? round---what is it now---round 33??

I'm not an instructor so I can't get into a word contest about the mechanical differences ya'all are so quick to point out, that may or may not truly exist.

What I will say is currently, the simple thruth is, here in the US you can't get a PMTS lesson very easily. With relatively few exceptions, you have to sign up and attend a multi day camp that is on par with any of the at least dozen other "specialty" camps that compare to Epicski's academy, Erid D's camps, Weem's sports diamond and a plethora of others. (my apologies for butchering the names)

All, I believe offer similar "extra's" such as alignment clinics, boot balancing, fitness, video analysis to name the most common.

All are not cheap and I suggest that none are aimed at the 1,300 bodies a day beginner level class folks that Ott and others have been talking about.

We need to level the playing field here and have both sides agree that to compare a Mt Hood PMTS camp to a Boston Mills Wednesday afternoon student PE class is absurd.

If we compare a Mt Hood summer race PMTS camp to say Eric D's steeps camp---there is a better framwork for discussion. Still not the same animal---but much much closer.Today 08:07 AM
I am not trying to compare the ski school equation to the HH camps and I don't think any of my posts above read that way.

I am providing a suggestion that would assist all ski schools and instructors in providing a better overall lesson experience. A "free" preprinted lesson card would be valued by anybody that pays for a lesson IMO. They would probably cost no more than 20cents each.

Or would this be resisted at management level, due not to the expense but because they know that there is such a diverse interpretation of how to give a lesson amongst their employed instructors.

Here any bells ringing skier j?
post #221 of 236
John Mason wrote the following opus at realskiers;


Max501 - tip lead and counter

This is so easy to play with just standing in the doorway.

How can one generate edges. So far I've played with 4 ways.

1. Counterbalance. To play with this just be in a traverse and drop a shoulder making your body be a c shape and you'll create edging. Great for edging in a very slow speed turn.

2. Counter. Point your hips to the outside of the turn and you'll see your edge angles will increase.

3. Inclination. Hard to do in the doorway, but the inclination of the body as it balances to the g-forces in the turn.

4. Knee pointing - it works, but with such 3 skeletally strong other ways of creating edging above, this one should be avoided.

If you are playing with counter in the doorway with your shins lined up, take your inside leg and slide it forward. This will still leave your hips pointing to the outside of the turn, but you will find your edging will disappear.

The BB diagrams on the Onsnow site show a total lack of parallel shins so while the hips are pointing outside the turn (there is "hip lead" as some call it) there is no functional counter because of that tip lead. Contempary race coaching all try to have their racers strive for parallel shins. This is one of the skeletal reasons for it. In PMTS we get this easily by pulling the inside foot back and transistion and keeping it back through the turn. For me this feels like a shuffle step right at transistions. It was my personal big breakthru at the all mountain camp this year at Big Sky. I finally experienced what people were talking about in "pull the foot back". That one move executed at transition and maintained through the turn fixed my fore/aft problems. (for those that read my earlier posts, I removed all the shims from the back of my skis. Don't need them anymore.)

The other main difference between a lito,eski, John C, or HH/PMTS turn and the dynamic parallel turn shown on the diagram at onsnow is that the diagram shows pressure becoming netural between the skis right at turn transition. In reality, flexion and removal of pressure needs to occur before transition in order to have a release - ie end of turn with body moving over to position for the new turn. This early weight shift turn (lito) or Super Phantom turn (pmts) or balance and fall into your turn (John C) is totally different than the pressure gradiants shown in the diagram. A weighted release which would be closest to what is shown, still removes prssure from the downhill ski but not completly to effect the release.

I think exploring these differences in the TTS dynamic turn graphic is useful to people that see the differences in the resulting skiing but do not understand what is accounting for those differences. I'm not trying to start a war or a confrontation, but just bring the discussion to the level of actual real ski technique discussion.

John I beg to differ.

Dropping a shoulder......merely drops a shoulder! I think your mentor's words about "primary" movements originating at the feet have fallen on deaf ears. Tip your feet.....not your shoulders. Begin movements in the feet, allow them to move up the kinetic chain and you'll never feel the need to contort and drive movements down from the shoulders to the ski edge.

Likewise....sliding a foot forward or back (dorsiflexion or plantar flexion) has absolutely nothing to do with edge angles or one's hips UNLESS the aforementioned movement is accompanied with no opening or closing of the knee or hip. I can move my foot forward and back till the cows come home and not alter edge angle or the orientation of my hips.

Race coaches are looking for speed. They could give two flips about parallel shins. I could spend the rest of the evening picking photos of race winners who exhibit "A-framing".

See the following and find a pair of parallel shins;

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/la...ges/index.html

Active tipping of the inside leg MAY result in parallel tib/fibs, however, I think you have gotten light years beyond your frame of reference delving into what "race coaches" are seeking. Yes, I know you went to a race camp during the first year you skiied. I took one flying lesson years back.....that doesn't make me an F-16 pilot.

You keep clinging to.....keep talking about.......keep hanging your hat on the term "knee pointing". You love to espouse this as proof positive of an err on behalf of TTS. I have never told a student to point their knees, never heard an instructor tell a student to point their knee, nor have I ever heard a clinician make mention of this expression.

I'd feel equally stupid advocating to a student that they "drop a shoulder" or make fore-aft foot movements in order to tip a ski on edge.
post #222 of 236
[quote=Ashski]Originally posted by skier_j:
Quote:

I am not trying to compare the ski school equation to the HH camps and I don't think any of my posts above read that way.

I am providing a suggestion that would assist all ski schools and instructors in providing a better overall lesson experience. A "free" preprinted lesson card would be valued by anybody that pays for a lesson IMO. They would probably cost no more than 20cents each.

Or would this be resisted at management level, due not to the expense but because they know that there is such a diverse interpretation of how to give a lesson amongst their employed instructors.

Here any bells ringing skier j?
One of the great things about the GCT concept in the Rocky Mountain division is the idea of identifying students motivations-understandings-movements AND SUBSEQUENTLY facilitating incremental motivation-understanding-movements.

My point is this. I would have to have a library of cards involving a myriad of permutations. What I might prescribe for one student, whether singularly or in a combination, may very from the next.

That is why I have always said there is "nothing progressive about a progression". A+B+C does not always equal a desired result.

I use video and e-mail to recap lessons with students.
post #223 of 236
[quote=Ashski]Originally posted by skier_j:
Quote:

I am not trying to compare the ski school equation to the HH camps and I don't think any of my posts above read that way.

I am providing a suggestion that would assist all ski schools and instructors in providing a better overall lesson experience. A "free" preprinted lesson card would be valued by anybody that pays for a lesson IMO. They would probably cost no more than 20cents each.

Or would this be resisted at management level, due not to the expense but because they know that there is such a diverse interpretation of how to give a lesson amongst their employed instructors.

Here any bells ringing skier j?
That cards with points to remember is certainly a good idea---and one I happen to like a great deal. It is not novel tho---I have a card with things to work on from an ETU I attended a few seasons back. An ETU would compare loosly with a PMTS camp, however, not so much to a single or even a series of level 1 through 4 lessons.

Individual attention is a large part of the PMTS method and is to be lauded as a GREAT idea---but certainly not a novel idea---there are many specialty camps out there that do the very same thing

My suggestion is to go out and MAKE a change happen, if you feel that strongly about it. If it is a better mousetrap---certainly folks will flock to your doorstep. If not--- well all the cards in the worls won't make a difference.

I will grant you that making significant inroads in ski schools will be difficult - not because of the method you are trying to get put into place, but because change in any significant order of magnitude is an extemely tough sell. If you can accomplish it, I tip my hat to you.
post #224 of 236
It’s not going main stream because HH is a nobody in the world of international instruction.

Yes HH has some great ideas and techniques but ski instruction is one of the most plagiarized professions out there.

Ski Instruction is an in international profession. In the US we seem to us and loose information on an annual basis.

How many ski instructors in the USA teach for more than three years?
Who knows how the Center line, ATM, ATS1, ATS2, Stepping-Stones, ATML (sorry). Works?

Self-gratification, it’s not big and it’s not clever.

Whatever HH has to say, some old Scottish guy said in the seventies or sixties.

Word up to Yo Mamma.
post #225 of 236

nice pics Rusty

Nice link to a bunch of parallel shins. Not sure why you think those are examples of not having parallel shins. You can have an "a frame" and have parallel shins. Parralell shins does not refer to the angles of the skis being parallel to each other or not, but the fore aft difference between the skis. No tip lead = parallel shins.

As far are your F16 ref, etc, I'm going to my 3rd year of race camp and parallel shins is part of the goal of all of the coaches I've been exposed to. One of them, non-pmts, coaches a current junior national champion. He is also on the Pacific NW tech team. He specifically was correcting nationally ranked masters racers at the camp last year that they need to ski with parallel shins. Their tip lead on the inside foot was holding them back in his opinion. He described tip lead for racing as old school. But, your nice link to Ron LeMasters Pics shows that very well. Very little tip lead in any of them.

Dipping the shoulder is an old school technique that some of my 30 year skiing friends do. It has nothing to do with PMTS. However, that move or the moves at the feet can generate counterbalance which is one way to edge.

Counter - hips pointing outside the turn is another. Counter mixed with tip lead - non-parallel shins makes your edging get less. Yes, you can contort things in the "doorway" test to make anything happen that you'd like, but your arguing against the obvious here.

Knee pointing is not part of TTS that I've seen. I've seen people teach it, but I've never been aware that it's part of TTS. Just some coaches I've run into like that PSIA III cert on the deck in chicago were pushing it. I'm glad you agree that's a bad way to get edging. I'm not sure why you would assume something I label as bad I would consider as TTS? What is TTS anyway? You don't teach what most people think of as TTS yourself from what I've read.

Too bad you don't think keeping the inside foot from being excessively forward and pulling it back is not related to getting the skis to successfully edge. You've never heard anyone ever say that? I've heard if from PMTS and non-pmts alike. There have been long discussions here about tip lead and it's pros and cons. Fore/aft doesn't create edging, but inside foot tip lead lessons it. But, you've already stated you don't agree with that. But maybe your just focusing on the single point that you can shuffle your feet back and forth and keep them flat as if that has any relevancy.

Rusty - you would enjoy coming up with SCSA, Jay, and I for the race camp in June. You can argue those points with a former WC racer and coach. Seriously, you should come out. We are going to have a great time. We've rented a house that sleeps ten and there's still room. June 9-12 at Mt Hood.
post #226 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason
... You can have an "a frame" and have parallel shins. Parralell shins does not refer to the angles of the skis being parallel to each other or not, but the fore aft difference between the skis. No tip lead = parallel shins. ...
??????????????????????????

Are you looking at the skier from the side instead of from the front? In my experience, a front view is what 99.999% of people have in mind when they say "parallel shins".

There is also, of course, parallel as viewed from other angles, including from the side, but when that is being done, people will explicitly say so.

Tom / PM
post #227 of 236
John Mason: Parralell shins does not refer to the angles of the skis being parallel to each other or not, but the fore aft difference between the skis. No tip lead = parallel shins.

Huh? Who on earth told you that parallel shins means that you have no tip lead. How can you say that an A-Frame can have parallel shins? Unbelieveable!
post #228 of 236
TomB - Obviously, they are in a parallel universe orthogonal (in many ways) to ours.



Tom / PM
post #229 of 236
It is Blind Faith.

Sort of like this:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines
post #230 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhysicsMan
??????????????????????????

Are you looking at the skier from the side instead of from the front? In my experience, a front view is what 99.999% of people have in mind when they say "parallel shins".

There is also, of course, parallel as viewed from other angles, including from the side, but when that is being done, people will explicitly say so.

Tom / PM
and then there is that one one thousandth of a percent of folks!

John,

At realskiers you stated, and I quote verbatum; "Point your hips to the outside of the turn and you'll see your edge angles will increase.

Last night you state; "Counter - hips pointing outside the turn is another. Counter mixed with tip lead - non-parallel shins makes your edging get less".

I don't know who you ran into teaching on a "deck" in Chicago, however, I don't always think of that area as exactly being on the forefront of innovative ski teaching. Michigan, Wisconsin......lot's of great teachers and skiers. A deck in Chicago?

I also didn't realize you had been to three race camps. As it was said in the Wizard of Oz....now that's a horse of a different color.

You haven't slipped into a speed suit yet have you?

You wouldn't happen to have any snapshots of you all decked out?
post #231 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB
John Mason: Parralell shins does not refer to the angles of the skis being parallel to each other or not, but the fore aft difference between the skis. No tip lead = parallel shins.

Huh? Who on earth told you that parallel shins means that you have no tip lead. How can you say that an A-Frame can have parallel shins? Unbelieveable!
Believe it.

It doesn't have to be true.....you just say it and revel at the sound of your own voice.
post #232 of 236
Come on, Rusty, give John a break. Please pay more attention. He can't possibly remember all of the brilliance he shares. What does it really matter? Less edging, more edging, counter, tip lead, parallel shins, rotation, skidding, drifting - it's all just skiing.
post #233 of 236
Your shins are parallel if the 3-D vector from right aknle to your right knee is equal in direction to the vector from your left ankle to your left knee.
post #234 of 236
Mr. Mason, I'm afraid you're thinking yourself into a hole without any depth of experience to reveal the flaws in your arguments. You make a great show of regurgitating all the cool jargon from the high level skiers you've worked with, but you've not enough mileage under your skis to actually be able to select from multiple schools of thought and arrive at your own conclusions.

He said this and They say that....

Not developing a lot of credibility.
post #235 of 236
Rusty,

John does not understand the first tenant of skiing; have fun. With all of the attention on parallel shins, how can a person have fun. Besides who cares? HH and the other examiners during PMTS accrediation. That's it!!
post #236 of 236
Giving the guy his due I think the technical side of how to make a turn is something that he enjoys.
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