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Progressive Edge Bevel

post #1 of 10
Thread Starter 
I took my skis in for a base grind a few days ago and the shop tech suggested a pregressive bevel (not detuning) on the tip and tail which he said gives a more gentle entry/exit whithout hooking. He said that he does this for many skiers including racers. I have stayed away from any detuning in the past as I prefer my skis to carve along as much of the edge as possible.

Is this "progressive beveling" common? Do any of the factories use it?
post #2 of 10
I've tried it before, it works pretty good, but I haven't done it on deepsidecut skis. I'll ask my own tech about it.

post #3 of 10
I do that on my K2 Mod X ski's, 181 length. I keep the side bevel the same at 1 degree , the base bevel i do 1 degree except at tips and tails were i do 1.5 degree base bevel, works well for me. Not sure if thats exactly what you mean but that works well for me.

And yes never detune a shaped ski, keepem sharp all the way. I here so mnay guys here saying to detune the tips and tails and i just cringe when i see that advise.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 22, 2002 10:04 AM: Message edited 1 time, by dc9mm ]</font>
post #4 of 10
If the edges have the striations of grinding polished out, there is no need for increased bevel at the tip and tail. Shops that don't have a mechanical way of polishing the edges will use more base bevel to assist the skis in initiating and completing the turn. Use a diamond stone or very fine (300+ grit) sandpaper to polish the edge.

By increasing the bevel, you will need to increase lean angle to get edge hold. Might be ok in softer snow, but might not help on the ice.

BTW, which shop suggested this?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 22, 2002 05:13 PM: Message edited 1 time, by BetaRacer ]</font>
post #5 of 10
Questions to the experts about beveling:
-- Is 0.5 degree variation in bevel really controllable reliably by most tuners? Seems awfully subtle. If the answer varies between base and side bevel, why so?
-- Even if tuners can reliably vary bevel by 0.5%, can skiers below the competitive level really detect 0.5% (or even 1%) variation effectively? Again, if varying between base and side bevel why so?
-- Finally, (assuming that bevel can be set reliably), I see/hear very contradictory advice about how many degrees to use. Warren Witherell in the "The Athletic Skier" said to use flat bottoms; no base bevel. Most shops these days claim to use 1 degree base & side. Atomic specifies 1 degree base and 3 degrees side (it's engraved on their topskin)but my local shops in Boulder CO say "Naah" and still use 1 degree base & side unless the client demands different and pays extra.

I'm confused by this conflicting advice & practice. E.g., have beveling norms changed with increasingly shaped skis, and if so why? Should beveling practice on modern skis vary with conditions or skier type? (I'm no racer but don't want to be limited to skidding across the boilerplate that's prevalent these days, esp. from artificial snow.)

FYI: My skis are Rossi Bandit X and Dynastar Speed SX, both 4 yrs old. Moderate sidecut by current standards (approx 99/67/88 Rossi, 99/63/88 Dynastar).

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 22, 2002 05:58 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Don Deane ]</font>
post #6 of 10
Thread Starter 
BetaRacer, thanks for the detail as allways. The shop was Wild Willies. Sounds like it would be better to keep the bevel to the factory specs all the way through in future.
post #7 of 10

You're right..it is difficult to manage 0.5° or even 1.0° bevel variance when tuning skis. Usually, the bevel remains consistant along the length of the edge but is not always the prescribed degree...in most cases. In other words...the technician may think he's giving you a 1° base but if it were measured, it's usually 1.5° or more. (typically base edges are over bevelled & side edges underbevelled). It all depends on who is tuning, how long they've been doing it & what tools they're using.

As far as being able to detect differences between different bevel angles, about the only way for you to be comfortable with the answer would be to try like skis w/ different bevels. You'll find different edge angle geometries are quite noticable, especially in certain (hard-pack/icy) conditions & for certain ski styles (SL turns vs. GS turns).

Varying bevels from one degree to another on the same edge (done almost exclusively on the base edge, not the side) is often done as an alternative to "detuning" tips & tails. Again, to be satisfied that you can tell a difference between more or less bevel in the tip or tail areas vs. underfoot, you'd have to ski equipment with both types of tunes to tell, but it is possible.

Regarding what specific edge angles are optimal, it is 100% dependant on how you want your skis to perform, what conditions you ski in & at what level you ski. There is no "magic" tune, however, a 0° base is usually limited to old school skis and SOME slalom equipment for SOME skiers.

Manufacturers recommend cerain bevels, shops usually say "nah" because they dont want to or don't know how to effectively set up ski edges to satisfy a customers prescription & most tuning manuals are currently out of date to my knowledge.

Hope that begins to shed a little light on the bevel delema.
post #8 of 10
I noticed on the Tognar site that Rossignol recommends 1 degree base and side bevel. Would this be the angle on the edges shipped from the factory (Factory tune)?

post #9 of 10
I agree with snojock. There is no magical answer to the edge bevelling question. There are a lot of factors that play into what kind of bevel a tuner will achieve when tuning a pair of skis, and there are even more factors that will determine wether the skier will notice the difference or even wether the bevel will make a difference.

When tuning a pair of skis, just like a lot of repair/tuning processes out their, the tools are what make the difference. I firmly believe that I can achieve an accurate, consistent bevel using a good quality file guide for the side edges, and a set of swix base bevel sleves for the base edges. By using any thing else, I think that your beveling is merely an estimation (except maybe a stone grinder).

For example, when you use a Wintersteiger or similar Wet Sander to grind your bases, the machine will effectively bevel your base edge about 1º (beacuse the ski is pushed into the belt, which is supported by a soft rubber roller). However it is nearly impossible to accurately control the amount of pressure being applied by the machine. A stone grinder on the other hand will give you a very accurate 0º base edge bevel, but does nothing of course for the side edge.

Therefore I believe that hand tuning is the only way to achieve accurate bevels. But only an experienced and capable tuner will be able to ensure the accuracy of his / her bevels. Some factors affecting the accuracy of the bevels could include but aren't limited to file flex, collection of filing on the file, a non-flat ski base, gouges or imperfections in the edge (including Tempering), etc.

As far as being able to tell the difference, the skier must be capable of detecting suttle differences in the action / reaction of his/her skis, and in most cases this means that the skier would be more advanced. Also the snow conditions are going to limit a skier's sensitivity to differences in a ski's edge bevel. Really hard snow or ice would be the best conditions for detecting beveling differences.

For an idea on the original post, the point of "de-tuning" a ski is to make turn initiation / completion easier by dulling the edge where it loses contact with the snow due to the curve of the ski. You wouldn't lose any effective edging if you were to detune your skis properly, which I consider using a gummy stone or a diamond stone to smooth down the edge (take some of the sharpness off) where the ski begins to curve up into the shovel at the tip and tail. A lot of beginner tuners will detune too far down the edge, and that's where you start to lose some effective edging. I don't think progressive edge beveling is the right way to go about de-tuning a ski.

Just my $0.02


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 24, 2002 04:30 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Powderhoundin ]</font>
post #10 of 10
Followup question on detuning. As far as losing edge contact length that makes sense, but how critical it is, doesn't that depend on how much you have? or can efford to lose? For example if two equal in every way skiers, weight , ability , conditions skied , same model ski etc, but one liked feel of longer ski and skied it 10cm longer. Couldn't he/she detune a bit of edge for easier turn initiation? Not a lot an inch or 2 from the tip and tail ie like the 10cm of additional length.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 24, 2002 07:41 AM: Message edited 1 time, by dougw ]</font>
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