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Video for picking apart - Page 2

post #31 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6
My point is merely that the pros keep them tighter together partly because the judges call for it but mainly because it serves a purpose. The rules doesent say you have to have your skis glued together but that they should be at an eaqual distanse from each other all the time. This is impossible if they are apart so thats why they need to be together. The main reason however is that if you have them fearly wide apart the uneven terrain will have your leggs doing individual flexing and streching all the time and this will mess up your skiing for shure. I just called up a former mogul FIS skier and a current FIS mogul judge and he said the same. He also stressed the fact that it is fast skiing down in the fall line and you dont have much time to consentrate on individual ski controll even though you have weight distribution 70/30.
This is just the point. Feet together in moguls isn't because its efficient. Its because judges want to see that. What you are failing to understand is the second part of your paragraph. You clearly point that out if you look again at what you wrote. Yes your feet need to be together in order to prevent individual flexing BECAUSE you LOSE POINTS for air seen between your legs. NOT because it is efficient. If you are not competing, why not let your legs be independent?

You are clinging onto traditional moguls skiing instruction that is a hand me down from competiton mogul skiing as a direct result of "I see, me to" stupid points judging rules. The rules and judges are responsible for those bad knees and injuries you speak of, not the moguls themselves. There is a way to ski them without getting beat up at all but you won't get any points.

There is no flames, I just don't want to see you beat yourself to death.
post #32 of 49
Pierre, please tell me why a close position is harder on your knees than an open one! And while you are at it, please tell me big master how exactly you think moguls should be skied. Better jet, show me a video of how you ski moguls.

And no, I did not say that you lose points because of individual flexing of leggs. You lose your balance and your controll over your skis and thats pritty much all you need to fail.
post #33 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6
Pierre, please tell me why a close position is harder on your knees than an open one! And while you are at it, please tell me big master how exactly you think moguls should be skied. Better jet, show me a video of how you ski moguls.
I tried. When you get like this I'll just back right off.
post #34 of 49
Pierre, still didnt get an answere to my Q: what does a narrow stance has to do with knee injury?

You also seem to think that having your hipps over your skis is related to having an open position! IMO that has nothing to do with how wide your stace is. You can have your weight in the back seat with both a narrow and a wide stance. If you look at FIS mogul skiing technique they have their weight forward. They are much more forward leaning than any other skiers. And they dont flex with their knees above their shoulders as you indicate, they flex against their chest. Your statement that your hipps should be above your skis is actually only a static position for showing a proper stance standing still. When skiing dynamicly the hipps should be over the hipps only at transition (minimum pressure). Otherwise they should be out to the side or actually the skis should be out to the side to a various degree depending on were you are in your turn.

You also put me down because I admit to having problems with my upper body braking. Well, I have problems with lots of different things when I ski but its not a big deal for me to admit it. Actually I show indications of being human and that is a comfort to students and other skiers when we are on a mountain. Hey, I have problems too... and they are a result of this and that and I try to fix them like this and that.... As I said before, my braking of my upper body usually occours when I get tired. When my leggs dont work anymore. Happens to everyone sooner or later if you are human. And skiing moguls is pushing your limits. Dont play it safe. Be spectacular and have fun. If you never have any problems in moguls you seriously have to look your selfe in a mirror and aske yourselfe what you are doing wrong.

The line you are describing in your posts above is a very typical line for someone that doesent want to ski the bumps but still want to ski in the bumps. Like dachan, you are drifting along the downhill side of a bump. This is what I try to avoid since this is where most people ski and the snow is scraped off in this spot and soon it becomes icy. Now you can benefit from a wide stance in order to keep your balance. But if you want to attack the bumps you need to do what the pro do, you need to bring your skis closer together and use both feet for flexing from a maximum extended position. In this case two feet are stronger than one. And as the pro I talked to said, controlling individual legs in bumps is impossible.

dchan - I looked at your videos last night over and over again. What I would like to se is what I have stated here many times alredy, different line, a line that takes advantage of the terrain and the bumps, and much more flexing and extending. Use the bumps, dont avoid them. Look for the piled lose snow and start from there. You dont have to go over the bumps if you dont want to but start with using a little bit of the bump in the beginning. And dont try to increase speed. Speed will come once you have the line and the flexing working.
post #35 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6
Pierre, still didnt get an answere to my Q: what does a narrow stance has to do with knee injury?
I encourages a pivoting edge set. The very thing that contributes to long term motion related injury. I take it you are less than 30 years old as motion related injury hasn't hit home yet. A good example of motion related injury is Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.

Quote:
You also seem to think that having your hipps over your skis is related to having an open position! IMO that has nothing to do with how wide your stace is. You can have your weight in the back seat with both a narrow and a wide stance.
You are correct it has nothing to do with position. Having the hips over the skis is what allows you to have full motion and control of either foot at any time. That is completely different than stance width. I should point out that my definition here of wide stance width in bumps is hip width apart not shoulder width on opposing edges.

Quote:
If you look at FIS mogul skiing technique they have their weight forward. They are much more forward leaning than any other skiers. And they dont flex with their knees above their shoulders as you indicate, they flex against their chest.
I have no idea how to get my knees above my shoulders.

Quote:
Your statement that your hipps should be above your skis is actually only a static position for showing a proper stance standing still. When skiing dynamicly the hipps should be over the hipps only at transition (minimum pressure). Otherwise they should be out to the side or actually the skis should be out to the side to a various degree depending on were you are in your turn.
And when skiing we should not be in the same proper stance? Hips should be over the feet fore and aft. Also hips over the feet in relation to the line of force. When your hips are out to the side the line of force is still through your feet. Unless you are standing on one ski, the line of force will be somewhere between your feet. I call it maintenance of stance throughout the turn.

Quote:
You also put me down because I admit to having problems with my upper body braking. Well, I have problems with lots of different things when I ski but its not a big deal for me to admit it. Actually I show indications of being human and that is a comfort to students and other skiers when we are on a mountain. Hey, I have problems too...
This is an unfortunate development. There was NEVER any intention of a putdown. What I was trying to do was get you to back up and take another look. I felt that you were seeing the trees so to speak instead of the forest. I look at the time that I put in here on epicski as therapy not an ego trip. The fact that you admit to problems puts you in a class far above most here on epicski. That is a big plus in my book.

I can see that I am never going to change your mind. Time and old age will do that instead of me. I will move on to a different thread. This feels to much like an argument instead of therapy.
post #36 of 49

Video for picking apart

dchan, I didn't have time to read all the posts but did watch your video. The first thing I would help you with would be to make more consistant turns.
You seem to make a turn and then wait for the right time to make the next turn. Make shorter turns in the same rhythm no matter what the terrain is. Counting could help.
Second, you are in the backseat which makes you pick up speed until you are out off control. You can pull it off on this shallow terrain but when you get on some steeper stuff you will be in trouble very quickly.Try to pull your feet back under you at the start of each turn. This will enable you to make shorter turns and control your speed.

Good Luck,
Tappertee
post #37 of 49
If you think "Vickeys" at Alta is "shallow terrain", you obviously have NO idea what you are talking about. For all those out there beating up dave for his run, I invite all you you to come ski this run anytime and we'll video you skiing it....

L
post #38 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by lshull
If you think "Vickeys" at Alta is "shallow terrain", you obviously have NO idea what you are talking about. For all those out there beating up dave for his run, I invite all you you to come ski this run anytime and we'll video you skiing it....

L
While recovering from a broken leg no less...
post #39 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by lshull
If you think "Vickeys" at Alta is "shallow terrain", you obviously have NO idea what you are talking about. For all those out there beating up dave for his run, I invite all you you to come ski this run anytime and we'll video you skiing it....

L
It does amaze me what video does to make ANY run look flat. We did some video on spillway at Loveland this year. It is blue/black.

It looked as flat as Kansas on the video.
post #40 of 49
Thread Starter 
Vickys would be double black at most resorts. Alta does not list anything as "double black". I wish I had video of one of my better runs.

DC
post #41 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
Vickys would be double black at most resorts. Alta does not list anything as "double black". I wish I had video of one of my better runs.
DC
On a good day, it's as steep and the bumps are just as big as the birds of prey at Beaver Creek. It's just way shorter....

L
post #42 of 49
Could you guys please give me a short explanation of the way you mark your slopes in the US (double black diamond, red, green and blue).

Here in Europa it is from easy to difficult:
Green
Blue
Red
Black

Yes, video shure makes slopes look flat.... Thats why we try to tape some regular skiers for reference!
post #43 of 49
From easy to difficult:

Green
Blue
Black
Double Black

Vickey's it pretty steep and has a slight double fall line that is tipped to the skiers left (R in the video). It's not quite as steep and generally the bumps aren't as big on the skiers left.
post #44 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
I encourages a pivoting edge set. The very thing that contributes to long term motion related injury. I take it you are less than 30 years old as motion related injury hasn't hit home yet. A good example of motion related injury is Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.
Im 42y old and I have the same consern for knee injury as you have. I am actually a living proof that you can have success in sports without injury if your focus is on minimizing risk for injury.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
You are correct it has nothing to do with position. Having the hips over the skis is what allows you to have full motion and control of either foot at any time. That is completely different than stance width. I should point out that my definition here of wide stance width in bumps is hip width apart not shoulder width on opposing edges.
Yes, it was a misstake of me not to define the stand width from the beginning. Even the pro said that the pants used in professional mogul skiing are quite wide and will allow for a little bit of an open stance without it showing. I looked at videos from myselfe in bumps yesterday and I too have some air between my boots. But if the run is under controll my stance is usually less than hipp width.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
I have no idea how to get my knees above my shoulders.
Sorry, I missunderstood the following post by you earlier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
Having your feet close together, running up over the shoulder of the bump, facing squarely down the fall line and reaching to the top of the next bump with your pole is the exact recipe needed for pivot to a hard knee banging edge set and breaking at the waist. I call it Tradition Ski Instruction. Man is it fun to beat up on the word "Traditional".
I would like to correct you on your otherwise good analasys on the way I ski in bumps. Its not possible for me to reach for top of the next bump for my next pole plant. Its too far away. IMO the poleplant is made on the same bump since crashing into the uphill shoulder of the bump is the place where I make the transition shortly after the skis are steared diagonal to the fall line and running up the hillside of the bump. This is BTW what is braking my speed. And if overdone in big bumps it will offcourse also be a risk to your knees. I have to state once again, I dont ski in a traditional mogul style in the zipper line. I ski the bumps the other way around. Insted of turning right were everybody else turned right I turn left. This way I can ski in the soft snow skided into piles on the upside side of the bumps. The icy scraped downhill side of the bumps I cross with minimal pressure on skis as close in the fall line as possible. Im not shure but my turns may be called C-turns because when I reach the piled up snow on the next bump I snapp my skis diagonal to the fall line as I flex as much as needed. Actually first in the fall line I extend as much as I think is needed for flexing at the next bump. This way I keep my upper body movements to a minimum.
I agree that this style of skiing bumps is a danger to knees if overdone but remember that bumps are always a danger to knees as is skiing in general. The beauty of my style is that I dont have to ski fast because I almost stop at every bump (if I want) and the soft snow will reduce the impact of hitting the moguls. Its actually the soft snow that is braking my speed and the bump that is giving me the power and energy to unweight and make my turn. Sometimes in the air.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
I can see that I am never going to change your mind. Time and old age will do that instead of me. I will move on to a different thread. This feels to much like an argument instead of therapy.
Sorry, I can be a jerk sometimes. I highly value your time and effort to explain your thaughts and debate issues here at epic.

Ishull, thanks for the info. Moguls are usually on double blacks here in Europa because the groomers will not be able to work on such steep slopes without using a winch. I have been learning moguls in Gashurn in Austria at the famous double black Nova Stoba Steilhang. FIS competitors getting their chopps worked out was a good reference. Tigne in France also had a great mogul hill when it was prepared for the olympics 10y ago. Vickers seems like a great mogul run but the two videos clearly show that it wears out quickly. In the first video it lookes soft and nice.

tappertee makes grate remarks in his post. Vickers might however not be shallow like tappertee is indicating but it shure lacks big moguls at this particular day. But this is just perfect for avoiding injury and practising technique. Very good comments on the rhthm and the back seat. Its all bout chosing the right path, plan ahead, have rhythm, controll your speed, make it look good and have fun.

Tom
post #45 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
Vickys would be double black at most resorts. Alta does not list anything as "double black". I wish I had video of one of my better runs.

DC
Hey dchan, just where is Vicky's run at alta? I've skied there quite a bit over the years, but don't remember this run. Later, RicB.
post #46 of 49
Ric,

Vickey's is off Supreme. It's below the Big Dipper catwalk just below where Rock and Roll comes back in to the main trail. (see #21 on the trail map)

http://www.alta.com/Frames/trailmap.htm

BTW, Vickeys is steep enough that it needs to be wench groomed (about 2 times/season)
post #47 of 49
Thread Starter 
does this qualify as "walking the walk?"

Bumping up to remind me of what I need to work on.

Unfortunatly all we have had this season so far is rain and very firm ice with a dusting of powder over the top.
That and very heavy Sierra Cement. I'm hoping for a change next week!

The one day last week that would have been a great day to free ski we had sold out crowds so I worked 7.5 straight hours. One of our instructors not scheduled to work had come in to play. We ended up grabbing him to work 5 hours too!

DC
post #48 of 49
dchan, good you bumped up this thread. I remember it well from what must bee a long long time ago but my below quoted feedback still stands. I should try to post a video myselfe so that you could see what Im talking about. Let me try to do that today....

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6
Is that you Dchan skiing?

Nice conditions, wish I could have been there. I havent skid proper bumps this year at all. My favorite terrain has allways been powder on steep bumps.

No absorbtion as some said here before. And there is no snow flying and spraying all over the place. In conditions like this you need to have snow flying all over. You stance is a little bit to open for my taste. This causes you to look a little bit stiff and undynamic in your moves. Closer stance will give you better controll over your feet while you ski over uneven terrain. You also need to hit the bumps slightly different. Now when you turn left and cross over in between the bumps you should take a more direct line and crash into the snow that is piled up at the hillside of the mogul more in the fall line and cutt into the mogul and let your skis take off to your right in to the air and across the slope in a spectacular snow explosion while your upper body remains in the fall line and you plant your next pole plant while you absorb the bump by letting your knees flex all the way up to your chest, upper body remaining still and head not moving up and down.
post #49 of 49
Thread Starter 
bump again
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