Toyota Prius as a Ski Car? (A ski car is ski gear) - Page 3

I have never been misstaken for being politicly correct, therefore I love my Ford F-150 with the big V8, 4wd, plenty of room for the family, luggage, and skis. And while I might spend a little more at the pump, I don't have to worry about getting up that mtn pass, crosswinds, or getting crushed in a fender bender.

I'll stand by my statement that the underlying costs are greater. You cannot build a turbodiesel for the same amount of money as a gas motor. How the car is marketed and the cost to the buyer may be a different story entirely.

I will also note that current prices in the UK indicate that a Lupo 1.4 (0-60 in about 11 seconds) is nearly two thousand pounds less than a Lupo 1.4 TDI, which does 0-60 in about 12 seconds.

Per available horsepower, turbodiesels cost far more than gas counterparts to build.

Ignorant post of the day. From someone who lives where large hills don't exist.

My personal opinion on Prius is its a METRO TRENDY car. They serve there purpose, to make enviromentallist feel all warm and fuzzy. About the only thing there good for is getting you around town from Point A to Point B with good gas mileage. If your going on long trips there worthless. Especially if that trip requires you to load up the family, luggage, and ski equipment. The thing weighs in at 2890 lbs (300 plus lbs of that is batteries) which only allows you 1000 to 1200 lbs of additional weight. Four people, luggage, and ski equipment is going to easily hit the 1200 lbs limit. Plan on driving any serious grades for example Bishop to Mammoth and you might as well be driving a motor home. Hybrid cars are worthless when it comes to loading them up and taking long trips in them. Research the complaints through google.

If you plan on driving a lot in the snow and I don't mean driving up to the resort and then parking your car for the duration of the trip and then driving back home. If you really plan on doing a lot of mountain hazerdous weather driving get a Four Wheel Drive vehicle. Something that you lock the hubs either manually or automatically. AWD vehicles do not do this. Our current mountain vehicle is a Ford F350 Crew Cab, Long Bed, 7.3 liter diesel. Leather interior fully loaded. Its as comfortable as any larger SUV and more reliable in bad weather. This is not a vehicle if you want to be METRO ENVIROMENTALIST. One things for sure, I have never felt safer for myself and my family before driving this vehicle.

I have had a multitude of 4wd vehicles over the year. One of my favorite was the Subaru 4x4 HatchBack. I had one of the first ones that were sold in the US, I think it was 1980. By the time I got rid of that thing it had close to 400,000 miles on it. 4 trannies and 2 engines during its lifetime. Thing got great gas mileage as long as it was not loaded up, about 20-24mpg. We used to run from Orange County, CA to Squaw, Lake Tahoe an average of 20 trips a year. Fully loaded with 3-4 guys and baggage, we average about 16 mpg. Struggled up the Bishop grade.

I don't care what any of the car manufactures say. When you load a small vehicle down with weight they run like tired old dogs. The majority of people never think about this when they buy them, but they sure complain about it when they experience it.

I guess if I really wanted to get a Prius I could load it up in the bed of my F350 and still get up any mountain grade at 75+. (lol)

Talk about misleading. First of all, if you can get 300lbs per person with gear, your family needs to go on a diet. Myself, a week's luggage, and a couple pair of skis still isn't 300lbs. And I'm not a light dude.

However, it is important to note that the useful load of a Prius is actually 900lbs, which certainly could be achieved with four adults and gear. You have 220lbs for luggage with 4 FAA standard adults. Thats enough for a weekend trip, likely not a week trip.

Useful load of a couple cars:
Ford Explorer 4wd 2005: 1350lbs. (4500lbs. curb weight)
Volvo S80 T6: 930lbs (3691lbs. curb weight)
Nissan Altima: 1090lbs (3300lbs. curb weight)

Most non-fatass modern sedans have useful loads of around 1000 pounds. The Prius is quite reasonable in this regard. It just has a lot less motive power to push it up a grade.
Worthless is a strong term. It can perform at a level that was considered acceptable on those grades a short time ago. Re: complaints on Google, there isn't a service or product on earth without complaints available via Google. Some people buy a product like a Prius without understanding its limitations and strengths, much like some people buy skis and jam them into racks and then complain when they show a mark.
Rhetorical question: What do locking hubs have to do with the perfomance of a drivetrain on loose surfaces? Absolutely nothing. In fact, whether or not the hubs lock has nothing to do with where power is distributed, and everything to do with how a particular system is implemented.

No, many of them do far better.
Having a good friend with a similar truck, I can categorically state that you are deluding yourself if you think that is a better choice for a long trip than a Prius. Unless, of course, you don't mind subpar interior, subpar NVH, subpar pretty much everything but drivetrain and body. Of course, trucks aren't meant to be driven to ski areas.
Probably shouldn't.

http://www.hwysafety.org/sr_ddr/sr3507_t2.htm

Death rate in your vehicle is between twice and three times that of the best selling car in America.

http://www.hwysafety.org/sr_ddr/sr3507_t1.htm

In general, very large pickups have greater death rates than most cars.

This is undoubtedly due in part to the utter lack of crash testing performed on your behemoth. If it were crash tested, you could expect some pretty poor results. If you run into something stationary, the curb weight of your behemoth doesn't matter much.
Fast forward to today, when you can buy a WRX wagon, get better fuel mileage, and pass your behemoth like its' standing still on any grade.

Did I mention you can actually stop in a reasonable distance? Or avoid a hazard in the road? Or do any number of things you can't do driving a vehicle wholly unsuited to the task of driving.
My last winter car could make it up a serious grade at a peak of 8000ft, loaded with two guys, 21 cu foot Thule box, 8 pair of skis, and make it up said grade at about 112 in fourth gear. Despite the fact that I admittedly drive like a total asshat, I could still manage 25mpg in mixed driving. (edit: did I mention it cost 5 grand? or that its replacement cost $800, lol)

You seem to have a whole bunch of notions about motor vehicles that just ain't true.

No problems on the bridge. In real high crosswinds, I have felt a little loose, but not nearly as bad as my Sentra. The 3000 lbs weight helps, along with the lower profile.

I admit to driving the car like a granny on snowy mountain roads, but in summer, it handles more like my old Miata than any other car I've taken into West Virginia. Whoever said to avoid big hills with the Prius was probably thinking of the older model Prius (that looks like an Echo) and had a much smaller engine. The 2004+ model can do 90+ mph up the mountains on I-70 going from Baltimore to Wisp... Not that I advocate breaking any speed laws, or admit to doing the same.

Oh mank that is too much and too funny. And it takes balls to post that.

BTW, I'm Jewish and I find that sick, twisted, and yes, funny.

A 1-ton crew cab pickup is just a little overkill for just a ski car, isn't it?

IMHO, if you're looking for a ski car -- and a ski car only, not an offroader, not a towing monster -- it's pretty hard to beat a Subaru wagon. Decent mileage, good traction, decent power (recent models), car-like ride & handling (vs. SUV), good amount of space to haul all the crap we all take with us... I don't own one, probably won't ever (don't like station wagons, just preference), but I recognize their utility.

OTOH, our garage has three 4x4s in it (two Jeeps and a Toyota), any of which will get through snow just fine, but we also need the offroadability of real 4WDs. Subarus and other AWD vehicles just don't cut it for backcountry trails.

-Karl

Wow you really like to enter into a spirited debate with erudite and incisive contributions.

See my post in the Bicker thread you would seem to be permanantly stuck there.

I have always had 4x4 standard trucks for work purposes. This latest one I opted for something that the family could use comfortably and at the same time I can load my guys in at work and still get to remote job sights. Beats owning multiple vehicles.

So much to comment on so little time. So all keep it brief on your comments.

The Prius on long trips and heavy loads runs on both the Battery and the gas motor. Its the only way the thing can muster enought horsepower to keep it going. The outcome is the batteries drain down. The more weight the faster they drain. You can only beat the ponies for so long before they get tired. Then it runs completely on the gas engine. Regarding google information searches. Your right you can find the good and the bad. But if your going to buy one of these vehicles based on all the gas savings they sell it on, you should do the research. Probably why 'Skinose' posted the question in the first place. If your planning on taking a lot of long distance trips with a loaded vehicle, these are not the vehicles. Oh, and the load capacity did not include the gas weight. My recommendation to "Skinose..", get four of your friends, and then go test drive the thing on a mountain road. That's what I do when I go buy new vehicles. I consider the worse case, .... The guys going away for a weekend ski trip, or camping trip etc... I always test drive vehicles this way. My friends all are in the 6'+ 220 range.

My F350 is a fully loaded leather interior vehicle. Navigation, Video system with Dolby, Full electic seats including heat, full instrument panel, etc... there is no comparison. I can fit five of my employees in this vehicle plus myself making it six. Average size of the guys, 5'10" - 6'2". Average weight 200-220lbs. This vehicle has plenty of room even fully loaded with six. Plenty of head room. To be fair the only real problem for a big guy is the one that has to sit in the center jump seat up front. A little tight on the leg room due to the fact that the seat does not move back.

I'm not going to get into a discussion on AWD vs. 4wd, but I will say you need to do your homework, driving homework, because its night and day. I have had multiple AWD vehicles in hazerdous winter storms and they do not have the same type of traction control as any of my 4x4's with locked hubs. My last luxury AWD did not even come close to driveability in hazerdous snow conditions when compared to my old Subaru 4x4 hatchback that when you put it into 4x4 was true locked 4x4. Besides the fact that that Subaru was a basic no frills car the only thing I did not like about it was the lack of ground clearance, as was the complaint with my AWD's. An issue when you had one to two foot snow drifts, on unplowed roads.

Another Item people fail to take into consideration is winter mountain driving increases your chances of getting into a wreck. I would much rather be in a large vehicle then a small Metro Trendy car, regardless of what you may think or believe. The Tar weight on my truck is 8,500lbs. Who do you think is going to walk from an accident if I were to hit a Prius or a WRX in winter accident. I have had plenty of friends and family over the year that have been in unfortunate winter related storm accidents. All thankful that they were in trucks, because they all walked. Guess what not one of the accidents was there fault. All caused because someone was driving an AWD SUV or Luxury AWD Sedan and they had the mentality that AWD meant the vehicle now had battle ready accident proof armor plating which equated to the mentality that they could drive aggressively and recklessly in hazerdous winter conditions. (The basis of my original post)

Trucks my size are not built for speed, so your WRX comment is pretty silly. However I do know a few tricks that will easily get it into the 120-130 mph range if I so choose, still no way it could race a WRX. Trucks of this nature are designed to be work horses and they do just that. The motor alone is rated to 250,000 - 300,000 miles of heavy duty abusive use.

Fully loaded with camping gear in the bed, towing a 10,000 lb boat and still capable of going 65-75 mph. That's not going to happen in a WRX, ever or for that matter any small vehicle or AWD.

Oh, and regarding impact safety standards. One of the biggest fights of the automotive industry is they don't want the impact tests to refelect getting hit by large vehicles for example trucks and SUVs. Something that is not tested because the have been succesful in lobbying against these tests. Independent consumer groups have done there own testing and at 35mph side impact the results are devestating to the smaller vehicle.

watersurgeon, well said!

Most people have never been in a late model truck, and have no idea of the comfort and rideability they offer.

...not to mention, you guys that think an AWD or FWD car will handle the snow like a 4x4 are seriously kidding yourselves and deceiving others without the experience to know better. I understand there's a lot of "city idiots" who crash their 4x4's because they think they're bullet proof. But...that's a reflection on the idiots, not the vehicles.

As this thread determined well before you posted, a turbodiesel is probably a better choice for such use.

The Prius is neither marketed nor intended as a long range vehicle.
Good advice.
I've been in said truck, and the build quality and quality of appointments doesn't hold a candle to a 25,000 dollar Accord. Also, again, NVH, ride quality, etc. are all pretty awful compared to modern cars.

I'm a big fan of cars that are meant to be driven, and I would not want to drive along in a F350 for 50 miles, let alone 500, unless I was towing something rather large and heavy. There are simply way better choices.
Thats great, but you could ride around in far greater comfort in any number of luxury autos that cost less and perform better.
Again, locked hubs have nothing to do with this.

Nothing at all.

I'm well aware of how drive systems work, how power is distributed, and the effects on driveability. I'd note that traditional 4WD vehicles like yours with locked center diffs handle like utter pigs, understeering dangerously when even slightly pushed.
Perhaps your last "AWD" car had an inferior drivetrain. There are so many varieties of "AWD" that writing them all off as "inferior" to "4WD" is silly.
Ground clearance certainly is an issue worth considering. Again, I'd note that this has nothing to do with whether or not the vehicle is 4WD or AWD.
You. Duh. Essentially because you are driving a weapon, that in all reality should require a CDL.
Yes, lots of those idiots exist. I drive by them every winter, front wheel drive car and all. My favorite was the idiot that passed me, spun his Yukon in front of me, hit a guardrail hard, stopped........then five minutes later passed me again.
Kind of like driving an F350 to a ski hill is silly.
And no way in hell you could do that without breaking a variety of federal and state emissions laws. Large truck owners are some of the most irresponsible auto enthusiasts out there.
Yeah, great. So why do you drive it to the ski hill again?
Again, with the massively irrelevant crap.

I've yet to see anyone tow a 10,000lb boat to a ski area. Note the thread title.
Which only serves to prove my point: Driving a vehicle (edit: on a daily basis, not for utility uses) such as yours is irresponsible, and dangerous.

All this said, if I were going to tow a two car enclosed trailer to track days, I know just what I'd buy to tow it....and its an F350.

Yea, but you'd better get a Chevy cuz Ford made vehicles for the Nazis

what a thread

What in hell is "Metro Trendy" supposed to mean?
This is a criticism???
What's it get - about 12-14 mpg?
Nobody considering a Prius is going to be interested in one of those ridiculous things. I'd be embarrassed to drive one of those around...and how do you not feel guilty every time the subject of "no snow" or "global warming" comes up?

Metro environmentalist? Is that related to metro trendy? What do these terms mean?

The best ski car is the cheapest ski car that can carry you and your skis. I like the larger cars with room inside them (like the caprice wagon) that can cruize comfortably at 80 to 90 mph, but that's just me. Get four winter tires, and a set of chains for the heavy snow days. That leaves you more money for skis, lessons and lift tickets.

watersurgeon -someone asks about a Prius for trips to ski hills and you start waving your penis extension monster truck? GMAB

A very important note about turbodiesels (my immediate family owns two of them):

They don't have a lot of get-up-and-go, as mentioned 0-60 times are in the 10 second range due to only having 90 horsepower, but since they are diesels they have almost 150 lb-ft of torque and the peak torque is in the 3000 rpm range so you don't have to drive it like an F1 racer.

In contrast, the WRX that was mentioned has terrible turbo lag and almost no low end torque. If you stomp on it at 2500 rpm you get absolutely no pickup. In order to get any power from it you have to keep the engine really revved. If you don't mind some inexpensive horspower and want to race people at stoplights, provided you drive the thing like you are in an SCCA rally, the WRX may be for you. The interior feels cheap and rickety though and I wouldn't recommend it to most...

Back to hybrids and diesels. Watersurgeon is right that a compact car, like the prius, will bog down with 4 people and luggage - especially on a steep grade. That doesn't mean you need a 15 Liter V-12 land yacht. The low end torque that the turbodiesel provides is sufficient for climbing hills. Volkswagen interiors are a bit more refined than the toyota too from my experiences in both.

My $.02

So you prefer to make the roads dangerous for the rest of us by driving a humongous oversized rig?

FORD - Fix Or Repair Daily.

Regarding the locking hubs, is that locking the limited slip differential? If so, I need to do more research, but isn't that only useful for certain off-road situations? Why would you want to lock your differential on a slippery road? I would think that a computerized AWD system that detects slippage at each wheel and ajusts accordingly would be vastly superior on a slippery road than a locked 4wd.

Locking hubs is what you had to do on old fashioned 4wd vehicles to have power transferred to your front wheels. Locking the hubs makes it so instead of spinning freely, the front wheels spin with the (front) axle.

A differential is a different thing entirely. Unlike a solid axle where both wheels turn at exactly the same rate, a differential allows two wheels to spin at different rates. This makes turning more fluid since one tire doesn't have to skip in order to keep up.

If you have ever seen someone with a rear wheel drive vehicle stuck while giving it gas and one wheel isn't moving at all and the other wheel is spinning like hell, you are seeing the major problem with differentials. By allowing the wheels to spin at different rates, all of the power is going to go to the un-stuck wheel.

Unlike an AWD system where power is intelligently transferred to the wheels with traction, 4WD transfers power to the wheels without traction. The solution for 4WD is to lock the differential(s) - essentially converting them to solid axles where both wheels receive the power 50/50. But as mentioned earlier, when the differential is locked the vehicle will be resistant to turning resulting in a potentially dangerous understeer.

This is an entertaining thread. Let me add my $0.02 (many years of winter driving experience in different vehicles may make it worth $0.03).

The newest Ford trucks are as comfortable as any good car. They ride down the road like a dream, and the interior is first rate. I don't own a truck, but would buy one of these if I needed one.

Locking 4WD is awesome for off-road use, but is impractical and potentially dangerous for all-around on-road driving in mixed conditions. If there is any dry road on your route, locking 4WD is as much of a hindrance as it could be a help.

For ski trip driving, AWD or an "intelligent" 4WD is the best option. With these systems, you can travel on dry, wet, or slippery roads and have the best traction and control in every situation. AWD is a benefit even on dry roads, and it helps in acceleration *and* decelleration -- for example, Subaru AWD systems will transfer power aft on heavy acceleration to minimize squat, and they will transfer power forward under heavy braking to minimize front end dive. This ends up improving stability and driving dynamics beyond what the additional traction gives you.

Body on frame vehicles with locking 4X4 are great offroad (small Jeeps are awesome), but size and weight can be a hindrance. I have driven humble AWD cars on rutted country roads that have been impassable to larger trucks because of their size and weight. So unless you're driving a small Jeep, or some equivalent 4x4 vehicle that is suitable for true off-road use, don't assume that locking 4x4 is all you need. Same goes for beach driving.

Driver skill is important in any situation where the roads are bad, and more important than the vehicle. When in college, my friend and I drove through many a snowstorm in his crappy VW diesel FWD pickup truck to go skiing, while numerous cars, trucks, and SUVs, were spinning off into the ditches. If driven by an idiot, even the best vehicles will suck in the snow. If driven sensibly and properly equipped, almost any vehicle can be decent in the snow. I see too many people getting overconfident in SUVs these days, and it's a real hazard in winter driving.

My 2005 Subaru Outback XT turns out to be a perfect ski vehicle for 1-4 people. I can handle unplowed parking lots with up to about 16" of snow on all season tires. The car drives great and handles extremely well in curvy mountain roads, and the turbocharged power is intoxicating. No brainer 45% Front / 55% Rear AWD is wonderful in nasty weather, and enhances the driving experience on dry roads too. Stability and braking are excellent, and that is probably the biggest factor that drove me into a car-based wagon instead of an SUV. The only downside to the car is the "fair" gas mileage (20-24 in everyday life) and smallish interior. If I had a bigger circle of family/friends who skied with me, a bigger vehicle would be required. For 4 people, it works out fine. And if gas mileage is important, the non-turbo Outback models are a great option.

CRaig

I own a 2004 Prius with traction control and stability control in Vermont and ski a bunch. Generally, I love the car. My only gripes are the 2WD traction control (which I hate), and the low ground clearance. Generally, it works superb for getting me back and forth...BUT...it is NO match for my old Audi Quattro ! I wish I had my quattro back for a winter car !



GREAT THINGS:
============
- Awesome mileage (45mpg average)
- Pretty darn stable with stability control (it actually works)
- Plenty of room with a Thule ski pod on top
- Starts just fine in -20F weather

NOT SO GREAT THINGS:
===================
- Traction control prohibits you from "burning" your way up the road...(if it detects slippage...it "disconnects" your throttle from the wheels...making you come to a dead stop...not so good) I REALLY don't like traction control I cannot override when I need control over the wheelspin myself.

- Really low ground-clearance. A foot of snow can nearly slow you to a crawl and cause the car to "sled-up" and lift its wheels off the surface.

- Heat is not instant...but perfectly fine.

No, as I alluded to above, locking the hubs simply attach the wheel physically to the half shafts.

They do absolutely nothing else. Some vehicles, such as my Jeep Wrangler TJ, have a "full time" front axle. That is, the front axle/diff/driveshaft is always spinning while I'm moving. This decreases gas mileage and increases wear, but also makes engagement of 4WD simpler and more reliable.

What type of front differential the vehicle has is completely unrelated to the hubs.
Yes, a locking or very highly limited slip front diff drives like an utter pig at anything above 2mph.
You would think correctly.

Unfortunately, some of the "E-AWD" systems out there really suck. The best systems combine good hardware with good software. Typical systems have good software, and cheapass hardware. In other words, totally open diffs, which do no one any good in very tough situations.

Its not even so much slippage at each wheel, which is sometimes in low friction situations beneficial. Its more about the overall distribution of torque, which is why the hardware is quite important itself.

The WRC cars all have electronically controlled differentials that can vary the rate of lockup, and thus torque distribution. For us mortal folk, anyone that has ever driven an STI or EVO on a slippery road with good tires understands how vastly superior these cars are to "4WD" vehicles in on-road conditions.

Skier219 claims the newest Ford trucks ride like cars....not true when the truck in question is a SuperDuty. They ride decently with several thousand pounds in/behind them, but empty they suck. The new F150s, for sure, ride quite nicely.

etech --

The reason that the car won't slip the wheels is to protect the electric motors (which can be more easily burned out by low-drag operation than a gas motor). To say it disconnects the throttle is slightly mislieading, though -- it just won't spin the wheels faster than you're going. On lesser grades you can often get slow, gentle movement. It's annoying when you're on a steep grade, but there isn't much that can be done in the car (except put chains on or something like that).

As far as heat, there is an undocumented feature that you can use to get faster heat. There are two 100W aux heaters that are only used in MAX HEAT with defroster on. If you turn your cold car to MAX HEAT, and put the air on split defrost/heat, you'll get heat instantly. Don't ask me why it's so hard to use the aux heaters, I don't know.

Well, we agree on something!. Yes, most of the E-Awd set-ups just do not compare with a decent set-up with decent diffs. On the STI you can have a lot of fun by playing about with the center diff control. You can notice the difference as you change the front/rear balance.

Unfortunately, they won't likely be revolutionary. Battery technology has progressed in a very linear fashion for the last several hundred years. Today's devices are all more power hungry, and the batteries aren't really keeping up.
You could also make the jump to an Accord IMA. More than enough power to blow the doors off all but the uber SUVs, and excellent city fuel mileage to boot. My mother is currently considering one, her 03' Accord gets 29-30MPG on the highway and only 15 in town.

Good decision on your part anyways, 90k on a Subaru is just getting broken in.

ahem. hey, lee, hold the flames. just sayin': I've got a ski ride that works for me, gets better mileage than those rows of SUVs in the parking lot, and happens both to please the eye & give a lotta satisfaction around the curves. This girl likes to take care of the need for speed whether on or off the slopes---

As for extensions-- don't need one; don't have one to begin with : .