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Putting skiis up for the off-season.

post #1 of 69
Thread Starter 
Last year I printed out a page from the Toko website on this topic. You might want to check the site if you're interested. I also bought some advanced tune-up tools from Tognar Toolworks. Although I have ski shop experience, the methods used in hand tuning are different. I was pleasantly surprised to find all the equipment I purchased aided me. It's my opinion that fine tuning may help the pro or world cup racer, but it doesn't do much for the recreational skier. However, if one likes that kind of work, it can appeal to one's artistic inclinations. I bought a rough grade diamond stone, a burnishing tool for metal scrapers, a welding iron and an assortment of p-tex's. I had no idea what a burnishing tool would do when I ordered it. However, following the instructions I found that when used correctly it created an excellent scraping edge. The hand iron worked well with the p-tex's. No ash and very handy. The toko memo basically stated that one should do a lot of brushing with a brass or copper brush and then wax with their Red. The diamond stone would be for the burrs caused by rock impacts. Here's the method I used to do the job.
1. Take the hard burrs down with the diamond stone.
2. Clean the base thoroughly with a solvent.
3. File the edges, top and sides. (If you have a bevelling tool, use it. I
just add a hand bevel.) then dull the tips and tails with a sharpening
stone.
4. Clean the ski again with a solvent.
5. Take a burnished scraper and thoroughly scrape the base tip to tail.
6. Wipe the base down with a piece of fiberlene.
7. If you have a bar, check the base making sure it is level.
8. Fill the holes and gouges with p-tex using a razor to bring the plugs level.
7. Take a burnished scraper and scrape the ski again.
8. Wipe the base down, again, with a piece of fiberlene.
9. Take a brass or copper brush and clear the ski tip to tail.
10. Wipe it down with the fiberlene once more.
11. Hot wax the ski. Make sure you heat the ski for a good bond. Toko states that if you don't work the wax into the base, you will leave air in it. This will not make for a good preservation of the base for the long term.
post #2 of 69
I would not dull/detune the tips and tails. Unless your still skiing old straight skis. Other then that that's the basic way to do it.
post #3 of 69
Thread Starter 

Dulling

Actually, I did ski my old straight skiis this winter and that was the pair I had tuned. It was good practice, but it also turned out so well they look like new. Thanks, though, I didn't realize that the new Parabolics didn't need the dulling. Is that what everyone thinks?
post #4 of 69
Take a look at the Gear section and do a search.

We love to shoot the shit about tuning.
post #5 of 69
Thread Starter 

O.k.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scalce
Take a look at the Gear section and do a search.

We love to shoot the shit about tuning.
Seems like many love to not only jump to negative conclusions about other posters but also like to jump on them. I looked at the discussions about dulling tips-and-tails. I will keep a sharp edge on my Shaped Skiis when I go out next week. The only thing that scared me a bit was the guy who stated that he dulled them for tree skiing. However, I haven't had any trouble after dulling them before. On top of that the discussion about Bevelling was kind of interesting. I don't make an effort to put a bevel in my edges. I have never noticed it made a difference in my free skiing. What I did yesterday took a couple of hours as the skiis were quite used. That's a pretty expensive tune-up especially since I had tuned the skiis before using them that one day. Futher time devoted to bevelling would put it all out of wack.
post #6 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftskier
I don't make an effort to put a bevel in my edges. I have never noticed it made a difference in my free skiing.
Where do you ski?

How old is your "shop experience"?

I don't know about you but bevels make a huge difference to most skiers in the Northeast and you don't need to be a racer to appreciate "fine tuning".
post #7 of 69
Thread Starter 
I ski in the Northeast. Bevelling was big when I was working in a shop. I put a bevel on my edges, too. I don't use a bevelling tool, though. I ski quite well on top of that. It's my firm belief that skill at skiing is much more important that gear or tuning. However, I am not referring to neglecting to have a good sharp edge and well waxed bases. When I worked with the Swedish Pro Team, even they weren't thoroughly convinced that their fine tuning mattered. They all did it, but some of them laughed about it, thinking it was a psychological factor more than a reality. In addition I think that Ingmar Stenemark couldn't have racked up such a consistent string of superb race results on Parabolics. The preciseness required to balance these short skiis results in more wipe-outs on tricky slalom courses than occured in his time. You take the Elan Comprex that he used, and you will be much more likely to hold a cruddy course. Competitors today are much more dedicated to incurring the chance of loosing the course in the pursuit of the best times. The parabolics are much less forgiving of this approach.
post #8 of 69
Do we still put a 2x4 block under the bindings and clamp down the ends for the summer???
post #9 of 69
Thread Starter 
Is that supposed to be some kind of disparaging remark which should bring out sick smirks? How extensive is your knowledge or experience? Are you as wet behind the ears as so many of the arrogant techno-nerds that post on these boards?
post #10 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftskier
. I don't make an effort to put a bevel in my edges. I have never noticed it made a difference in my free skiing. .
I have a friend here who coaches junior racers. I think he knows what he's doing, he has coached for the US Team in the past, travelled to Europe and Chile with them.

He told me he doesn't mess with any bevel, just files them flat and square. All his kids make fun of him for it, but they still can't beat him through the gates.

I go with the factory specs but I wouldn't say it is the only way to fly.
post #11 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftskier
Last year I printed out a page from the Toko website on this topic. You might want to check the site if you're interested. I also bought some advanced tune-up tools from Tognar Toolworks. Although I have ski shop experience, the methods used in hand tuning are different. I was pleasantly surprised to find all the equipment I purchased aided me. It's my opinion that fine tuning may help the pro or world cup racer, but it doesn't do much for the recreational skier. However, if one likes that kind of work, it can appeal to one's artistic inclinations. I bought a rough grade diamond stone, a burnishing tool for metal scrapers, a welding iron and an assortment of p-tex's. I had no idea what a burnishing tool would do when I ordered it. However, following the instructions I found that when used correctly it created an excellent scraping edge. The hand iron worked well with the p-tex's. No ash and very handy. The toko memo basically stated that one should do a lot of brushing with a brass or copper brush and then wax with their Red. The diamond stone would be for the burrs caused by rock impacts. Here's the method I used to do the job.
1. Take the hard burrs down with the diamond stone.
2. Clean the base thoroughly with a solvent.
3. File the edges, top and sides. (If you have a bevelling tool, use it. I
just add a hand bevel.) then dull the tips and tails with a sharpening
stone.
4. Clean the ski again with a solvent.
5. Take a burnished scraper and thoroughly scrape the base tip to tail.
6. Wipe the base down with a piece of fiberlene.
7. If you have a bar, check the base making sure it is level.
8. Fill the holes and gouges with p-tex using a razor to bring the plugs level.
7. Take a burnished scraper and scrape the ski again.
8. Wipe the base down, again, with a piece of fiberlene.
9. Take a brass or copper brush and clear the ski tip to tail.
10. Wipe it down with the fiberlene once more.
11. Hot wax the ski. Make sure you heat the ski for a good bond. Toko states that if you don't work the wax into the base, you will leave air in it. This will not make for a good preservation of the base for the long term.
Or you can just slap a layer of paraffin on them and call it good. Tune when next years base covers the rocks.
post #12 of 69
Thread Starter 
Actually, though if you are going to parrafin your skiis, you should clean the bases first.
post #13 of 69
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog
He told me he doesn't mess with any bevel, just files them flat and square. All his kids make fun of him for it, but they still can't beat him through the gates.
Exactly.
post #14 of 69
"I ski in the Northeast. Bevelling was big when I was working in a shop. I put a bevel on my edges, too. I don't use a bevelling tool, though. "

Chances are you will have some sort of bevel. Without a guide, it will be dang hard to hold a file at a perfect 90.0000 degrees. Now, the questions is, is your bevel going the correct way?

"I ski quite well on top of that."

Wow.

"It's my firm belief that skill at skiing is much more important that(sic) gear or tuning."

You are saying that two skiers of equal ability will have the same result if one has poor equipment and the other has exceptional gear. You've been away for too long to make an inane comment like that. Even for the skiing public, and especially for the racer on modern gear, tuning of modern equipment is more important now than it ever has been.

"However, I am not referring to neglecting to have a good sharp edge and well waxed bases."

What the heck is that supposed to mean after the previous sentence? Is a tune (wax or edges) important or not? Are you a politician now?

"When I worked with the Swedish Pro Team, even they weren't thoroughly convinced that their fine tuning mattered."

What era was this? I know (personally) racers at the elite level (national World Cup teams of Canada and Austria) who will sharpen their edges after every 2 runs on man made. This is not a case of I've heard of so and so. These are my friends and associates.

"They all did it, but some of them laughed about it, thinking it was a psychological factor more than a reality. "

Its reality now. Race conditions are much more demanding. The use of water injection and chemicals create a racing surface more like a skating rink than a ski slope. Also the shape of the equipment dictates that the tune be impecable.

"In addition I think that Ingmar Stenmark couldn't have racked up such a consistent string of superb race results on Parabolics. "

I will agree with you on this one. Parabolics were never great for racing. There have been some huge advancements in shape ski technology since Elan marketed their Parabolic shaped skis. Most every brand (Elan included) have started using radial shapes, which combined with more modern materials from the aerospace industry, produce a cleaner carve. If the current skis were available, he'd have used them. If his skis were superior to current gear, why isn't the same 30 year old technology used today? E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N !!!

"The preciseness required to balance these short skiis results in more wipe-outs on tricky slalom courses than occured in his time. You take the Elan Comprex that he used, and you will be much more likely to hold a cruddy course. Competitors today are much more dedicated to incurring the chance of loosing the course in the pursuit of the best times. The parabolics are much less forgiving of this approach."

Racers race to win. Line choice, equipment prep, aggressiveness all determine how the athlete will finish. This has always been the case. If all the athletes had the same straight skis, the winner would be the one who took the most chances and still crossed the line. If the straight skis were better at slalom, no one would be using the current 165cm 12m skis that EVERYONE is using. And the courses 'Crud' up pretty badly now too. There is a fine line between winning and losing. Too much and you lose, too little you lose. Just right and you win. Having all the components (technological, mental, physical, etc) increases the athletes chances.

I have a feeling this was a troll, but I had to step in.
post #15 of 69
Betaracer

Although I wonder how you can doubt someone who worked on WC team skis!!

We'll be hearing, "What is that an other disparaging remark?" and another chapter of "how great I am", followed by a synopsis of how "all on ski forums don't have any grasp on reality" ---except him---of course, from Mssr beswift er betaswift er swiftskier or whomever this tool is really soon! I predict within the 1/2 hour.:

I've got to go block my iM70's and grind off the bevel---later!
post #16 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftskier
In addition I think that Ingmar Stenmark couldn't have racked up such a consistent string of superb race results on Parabolics. The preciseness required to balance these short skiis results in more wipe-outs on tricky slalom courses than occured in his time. .

While we're all ragging on each other I thought I'd disagree with this one. Benni Raich finished EVERY race he entered this year. He won the slalom title, won the GS title, won four medals at the Worlds. I'm not sure what a "parabolic" is but I think he was on some rather modern shaped skis.

Flash back to the Mahres' slalom one two in the Olympics. About 60% of the field on their old stable skis wiped out. The nature of the wrecks has changed, they traded the hooked tip for the jet out and land on the shoulder blade, but the rate of carnage looks to be similar.
post #17 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog
He told me he doesn't mess with any bevel, just files them flat and square. All his kids make fun of him for it, but they still can't beat him through the gates.

.
Don't get me wrong...if he was worried about going fast he'd tune'em right. He's just good enough and lazy enough to get away with it.

It does put it in perspective though...a good tune is nice but sometimes over rated. It is no reason to miss a day of skiing.
post #18 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog
It does put it in perspective though...a good tune is nice but sometimes over rated. It is no reason to miss a day of skiing.
Well said.
post #19 of 69

Poser/troll

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftskier
When I worked with the Swedish Pro Team, even they weren't thoroughly convinced that their fine tuning mattered. They all did it, but some of them laughed about it, thinking it was a psychological factor more than a reality. In addition I think that Ingmar Stenmark couldn't have racked up such a consistent string of superb race results on Parabolics.
Are you saying you used to tune skis for Ingemar Stenmark? You should learn to spell his name.

Poser/troll alert
post #20 of 69
He's well on his way to getting banned from this site as well.

dumbass troll
post #21 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scalce
He's well on his way to getting banned from this site as well.

dumbass troll
I don't think he is a troll, just a bit weird
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=26323
post #22 of 69
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider
Are you saying you used to tune skis for Ingemar Stenmark? You should learn to spell his name.

Poser/troll alert
I never stated that, did I? You inferred it. Now that we know you and your low-life friends are in the habit of jumping-to-conclusions, we are all better off, though. I didn't even state that I tuned skiis for the Swedes. He wasn't on the pro tour, either. Of course all this reflects on your level of Education, but I'm glad you made it through the sixth grade and can spell foriegn names. I need a secretary. Do you take dictation as well? Of course you must be in the habit of wearing a skirt so you'll fit in despite your swelled-head.
post #23 of 69
Thread Starter 

Dickbreath

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scalce
He's well on his way to getting banned from this site as well.

dumbass troll
Is that some kind of threat? I just see it as a nasty, stupid, flip comment from an arrogant fool.
post #24 of 69
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog
I don't think he is a troll, just a bit weird
I guess it takes a weirdo to know one.
post #25 of 69
Thread Starter 

Ignorance

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_j

Although I wonder how you can doubt someone who worked on WC team skis!!
I'm curious. Do you know the difference between the WC and the Pro tour?
post #26 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog
Don't get me wrong...if he was worried about going fast he'd tune'em right. He's just good enough and lazy enough to get away with it.

It does put it in perspective though...a good tune is nice but sometimes over rated. It is no reason to miss a day of skiing.
yep.

I notice the differences in side bevel if I tell myself I am noticing them.
post #27 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftskier
They all did it, but some of them laughed about it, thinking it was a psychological factor more than a reality. In addition I think that Ingmar Stenmark couldn't have racked up such a consistent string of superb race results on Parabolics. The preciseness required to balance these short skiis results in more wipe-outs on tricky slalom courses than occured in his time. You take the Elan Comprex that he used, and you will be much more likely to hold a cruddy course.
The Comprex came out YEARS after Stenmark stopped racing. Stenmark was on the RC series...the 04 and 05's.

And what did you do exactly with the Swedish "pro" team?
post #28 of 69
Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by Gonzostrike

Originally Posted by newfydog
Don't get me wrong...if he was worried about going fast he'd tune'em right. He's just good enough and lazy enough to get away with it.

It does put it in perspective though...a good tune is nice but sometimes over rated. It is no reason to miss a day of skiing.


yep.

I notice the differences in side bevel if I tell myself I am noticing them.
: Gulp!! You mean you can't tell the differences between 2 degrees and 3 degrees either???

Thanks Gonz, I thought it was maybe just me that was challenged that way!!
Newfydog, no reason to miss a few beers the night before either!
post #29 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftskier
Is that supposed to be some kind of disparaging remark which should bring out sick smirks? How extensive is your knowledge or experience? Are you as wet behind the ears as so many of the arrogant techno-nerds that post on these boards?
That was a very funny joke and he wasn't making fun of you. If he knows about blocking his skis with a piece of wood, I think his experience is quite extensive!
post #30 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog
While we're all ragging on each other I thought I'd disagree with this one. Benni Raich finished EVERY race he entered this year. He won the slalom title, won the GS title, won four medals at the Worlds. I'm not sure what a "parabolic" is but I think he was on some rather modern shaped skis.

Flash back to the Mahres' slalom one two in the Olympics. About 60% of the field on their old stable skis wiped out. The nature of the wrecks has changed, they traded the hooked tip for the jet out and land on the shoulder blade, but the rate of carnage looks to be similar.
Yes, Stenmark would have been faster than Bode and more consistant than Benni! He did have to risk falling to win, it's always been like that. Remember his "fall" during winning GS run at Lake Placid Olympics? Falling down without slowing down sicnificantly is a skill Bode has taken to a new level though.
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