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Metron B5 Tuning

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
Have just bought a pair of 04/05 B5's in 162 and have some questions regarding tuning:

What are the factory angles set to?

Can I ski them off the shelf - I've heard it say that they need a base grind/tune straight away?

Recommended angles to tune to (my 5*'s are set to 1 degree base angle & 3 degree side angle which I like)?

Should the tips & tails be de-tuned or should the edges have a full length tune?

All feedback and advice greatly appreciated.
post #2 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyderjon
Have just bought a pair of 04/05 B5's in 162 and have some questions regarding tuning:

What are the factory angles set to?

Can I ski them off the shelf - I've heard it say that they need a base grind/tune straight away?

Recommended angles to tune to (my 5*'s are set to 1 degree base angle & 3 degree side angle which I like)?

Should the tips & tails be de-tuned or should the edges have a full length tune?

All feedback and advice greatly appreciated.
I skied mine off the shelf and they skied just fine. as to tuning, it is 1 on the base and 3 on the sides, and I never detune my skis anymore, myself. Later, RicB.
post #3 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
I skied mine off the shelf and they skied just fine. as to tuning, it is 1 on the base and 3 on the sides, and I never detune my skis anymore, myself. Later, RicB.
I agree with Ric.

You still may want to check the base bevel at the tips and tails as they can sometimes come out from the factory with 2-4 degrees.
post #4 of 20
I assume you meant Metron B5, and not the SX B5. Whatever, but the same applies to both.

Atomic factory spec is 1 and 3 degrees, as others said. My personal experience this year with Atomics (I have the SX10, not Metrons), is that they ski relative well out of the box but not great. When I check them, they weren't a consistently 3 degrees through the length of the ski. There were waves and deviations. They skied a heck of a lot smoother when I tuned them to remove those waves. My re-tuned skis no longer hang a little too tenaciously onto a turn, which was my complaint originally. They skied a lot more predictably and much smoother.

No, I won't detune tips and tails, especially not Metrons which are meant to be skied very short. Some folks might like to detune their tips and tails on the SX's, but I say if they feel a need to detune, then they can stand to ski a shorter length.
post #5 of 20
I also have the B:5's, and skied them with the factory tune. They're great!

In my long experience, about 40% the time, the tech's get the base and side bevels wrong, or they "detune" the tips and tails too much. I've had great skis perform terribly after unskilled tunes.

There's no way to determine who's going to touch your skis; the local shop "master", or the temporary, part-time help. Some shops just throw your skis on the machine, and never bother to set the bevels for your brand.

For this reason, I'll only allow an authorized Atomic dealer to tune my B:5's or M:EX's. I also avoid unnecessary tunes because it increases the chances of problems.

Unless you're a tune-it-yourself expert like Josseph above, I'd leave well enough alone and enjoy your new skis.
post #6 of 20
If the base bevels are off, the only way to fix it is to get a stone grind and then have a skilled tuner set the bevels properly.

A home tuner cannot do this accurately or easily.
post #7 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scalce
If the base bevels are off, the only way to fix it is to get a stone grind and then have a skilled tuner set the bevels properly.

A home tuner cannot do this accurately or easily.
In my experience the only home tuning tool that has half a chance of fixing base bevels is the SkiVisions Base Flattener (http://www.tognar.com/base_flattenin...snowboard.html). It can bring down your base and edge level to get back to 90 degrees (in combination with a good quality flat file). Then you can reset the bevel angle with your tool of choice. The hard part in using the base flattener is making sure that you flatten the base evenly along the length of the ski so that you don't introduce "shallow waves" (by taking away too much material in one small section of the ski).

I've found that it's rare for shops to get the edge bevels right. Either they're too lazy to change the machine settings or they just don't have the skill to get it right.

I recall another thread that warned about the concave shovel of the Atomics when tuning them. They are designed to have a bit of "scoop" in the forebody (middle of the base is lower than the edges) and a stone grinding could eliminate this.
post #8 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler
In my experience the only home tuning tool that has half a chance of fixing base bevels is the SkiVisions Base Flattener (http://www.tognar.com/base_flattenin...snowboard.html). It can bring down your base and edge level to get back to 90 degrees (in combination with a good quality flat file). Then you can reset the bevel angle with your tool of choice. The hard part in using the base flattener is making sure that you flatten the base evenly along the length of the ski so that you don't introduce "shallow waves" (by taking away too much material in one small section of the ski).

I've found that it's rare for shops to get the edge bevels right. Either they're too lazy to change the machine settings or they just don't have the skill to get it right.

I recall another thread that warned about the concave shovel of the Atomics when tuning them. They are designed to have a bit of "scoop" in the forebody (middle of the base is lower than the edges) and a stone grinding could eliminate this.
A proper stone grind will not remove the concavity in a ski. I would not dare to use the ski visions base flattenr on any of my skis!

The only way as Scalce said to get back to flat is to have a competent shop hopefully with an automated Wwintersteiger machine (skis are attached to a carriage that automatically runs them throught the machine) stonegrind your skis flat. If you use care and have the experience you can base bevel your edges without problem. You must be meticulous in how many passes you make with your file. A good way to do this is use a marking pen and darken your base edges. Then only file until all ink is gone. Use the finest straightest file you can find and do not bend the file. Pressure only directly over your edge.

I divide the ski mentally with each overlapping pass , only pulling the file towards me on the edge opposite where you are standing.

For example

1st pass 4 overlaping pulls

2nd pass 3 over lapping pulls


3rd pass 2 overlapping pulls

4th & last pass tip to tail.


Polish the heck out of it with very light pressure.

another tip is if you want a finished 1 degree use a .7 base bevelr to file and polish so you don't get over a 1.

I also always do my side edges first. Helps avoid hanging burrs!

Hope this helps!
post #9 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
A proper stone grind will not remove the concavity in a ski. I would not dare to use the ski visions base flattenr on any of my skis!

The only way as Scalce said to get back to flat is to have a competent shop hopefully with an automated Wwintersteiger machine (skis are attached to a carriage that automatically runs them throught the machine) stonegrind your skis flat. If you use care and have the experience you can base bevel your edges without problem. You must be meticulous in how many passes you make with your file. A good way to do this is use a marking pen and darken your base edges. Then only file until all ink is gone. Use the finest straightest file you can find and do not bend the file. Pressure only directly over your edge.

I divide the ski mentally with each overlapping pass , only pulling the file towards me on the edge opposite where you are standing.

For example

1st pass 4 overlaping pulls

2nd pass 3 over lapping pulls


3rd pass 2 overlapping pulls

4th & last pass tip to tail.


Polish the heck out of it with very light pressure.

another tip is if you want a finished 1 degree use a .7 base bevelr to file and polish so you don't get over a 1.

I also always do my side edges first. Helps avoid hanging burrs!

Hope this helps!
Find a professional tuner who will do it RIGHT. First the wintersteiger machine, but also who takes the bindings and plates off the ski and doesn't use binding ramps, which are terrible for the quality of the grind. The only person who I will let touch my skis is Mike DeSantis at Peak Performance in Framingham, MA. He worked as a world cup tuner for volkl and knows what the hell he's doing. He does mail order tunes too. Once he sets your bevels (to a very precise tolerance), you maintain it with a diamond stone or a file if you need to. http://www.summitskishop.com/ptc.php?page=PTC
post #10 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublediamond223
Find a professional tuner who will do it RIGHT. First the wintersteiger machine, but also who takes the bindings and plates off the ski and doesn't use binding ramps, which are terrible for the quality of the grind. The only person who I will let touch my skis is Mike DeSantis at Peak Performance in Framingham, MA. He worked as a world cup tuner for volkl and knows what the hell he's doing. He does mail order tunes too. Once he sets your bevels (to a very precise tolerance), you maintain it with a diamond stone or a file if you need to. http://www.summitskishop.com/ptc.php?page=PTC
We are very familiar with Mike and his work.
post #11 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublediamond223
Find a professional tuner who will do it RIGHT. First the wintersteiger machine, but also who takes the bindings and plates off the ski and doesn't use binding ramps, which are terrible for the quality of the grind. The only person who I will let touch my skis is Mike DeSantis at Peak Performance in Framingham, MA. He worked as a world cup tuner for volkl and knows what the hell he's doing. He does mail order tunes too. Once he sets your bevels (to a very precise tolerance), you maintain it with a diamond stone or a file if you need to. http://www.summitskishop.com/ptc.php?page=PTC
Mike is great, but I ma not sending my skis from Washinton to Mass. The wintersteiger I am talking about has an automated carriage that automatically, systematically and mechanically runs the skis thru the machine.

All my skis are skiing extremely well!
post #12 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Strato
I also have the B:5's, and skied them with the factory tune. They're great!
I've skied on some good Atomic factory tunes this season, and I also skied on one in particular that was awful. You'd be doing yourself a disservice not to check it out well before skiing on it.
Quote:
In my long experience, about 40% the time, the tech's get the base and side bevels wrong, or they "detune" the tips and tails too much. I've had great skis perform terribly after unskilled tunes.
I'd say forty percent is a generous estimate. I ski on so many tunes that suck each year, and my experiences are with demo fleets tuned by brand reps.
Quote:
There's no way to determine who's going to touch your skis; the local shop "master", or the temporary, part-time help. Some shops just throw your skis on the machine, and never bother to set the bevels for your brand.
Some shops don't hire temporary part time help for ski tuning. Keep that in mind when you make your decisions.

As for "throwing skis on the machine", I welcome you to try and determine the difference between a 1/2 edge and 1/3 edge from the feel on the snow. I'll put 20 bucks on you failing at this task. Way too many people put way too much faith in so called factory tune specs, when the factories themselves often deviate significantly from these. Plenty of skis are better off with a .75 base, but shortsighted users may never realize that or have the opportunity to try.
Quote:
For this reason, I'll only allow an authorized Atomic dealer to tune my B:5's or M:EX's.
Which has just about zero to do with the quality of your tune.
Quote:
I also avoid unnecessary tunes because it increases the chances of problems.
This could be true, but the implication is a bad one. The less solid and square the tune your bring in to a shop is, the less likely it is to leave solid and square. If you really can't trust a shop to have consistent results, find a different shop.
Quote:
Unless you're a tune-it-yourself expert like Josseph above, I'd leave well enough alone and enjoy your new skis.
Again, probably going to be good, but could very well suck....hard. The one pair I skied on (literally "out of the wrapper") sucked too hard to even get a feel for. The tips were so over beveled on the base that the ski wouldn't start a turn if your life depended on it. Unfortunately, a factory error like that is not easy to fix, and involves reducing the life of the ski.
post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
A proper stone grind will not remove the concavity in a ski. I would not dare to use the ski visions base flattenr on any of my skis!
Actually, a proper stone grind will get your skis flat.
Quote:
The only way as Scalce said to get back to flat is to have a competent shop hopefully with an automated Wwintersteiger machine (skis are attached to a carriage that automatically runs them throught the machine) stonegrind your skis flat.
Having used Wintersteiger machines for the past five years, including an autofed setup, I find it rather interesting that you equate the automated machine with higher quality. That could only be due to user error on the part of people using the manual machines, which are far more friendly for high end work. The auto machines are great for garbage in garbage out 100 tunes a day stuff.

Also, I'm not sure if you understand this, but there is no difference in "flattening" a ski with a manual or automatic fed machine. The auto machine simply removes some of the repetitive drudgery, and reduces labor costs.
post #14 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman
Actually, a proper stone grind will get your skis flat.
I disagree.

Atomics will have the convacity even after a proper stone grind.

If you get an Atomic 100% flat then you have removed way too much material.

I would say that the concavity diminishes after every grind but it is still present.
post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman
Actually, a proper stone grind will get your skis flat.

Having used Wintersteiger machines for the past five years, including an autofed setup, I find it rather interesting that you equate the automated machine with higher quality. That could only be due to user error on the part of people using the manual machines, which are far more friendly for high end work. The auto machines are great for garbage in garbage out 100 tunes a day stuff.

Also, I'm not sure if you understand this, but there is no difference in "flattening" a ski with a manual or automatic fed machine. The auto machine simply removes some of the repetitive drudgery, and reduces labor costs.
Sorry, you've got it wrong for Atomics. What Scalce said. And you cannot convince me that a hand grind is as good (read consistent)as a computerized properly set up fully auto Wintersteiger for a simple stonegrind. I don't believe it! (doesn't even m,make logical sense. And when I have watched the shop I go to do it. It does not seem any quicker. Maybe I get "special Atomicman" treatment!
post #16 of 20
This discussion, it seems to me, all converges upon a single point; how can you trust somebody to it right?

We've all experienced the misery of unskilled tunes. A bad tune can ruin one's skiing experience, or in severe cases, even ruin the skis.

As afficianados, we spend significant time and money to ensure we have the right equipment. There's a lot at stake!

Obviously, if you know a great tech or shop in your area, you're blessed. Or, if you're a skilled tech yourself, even better - you have total control.

The rest of us are dependent on finding tech we can trust. No small feat!

I currently utilize Eric (the Austrian) from Sportsman's Chalet in Bellingham. I believe he's good, but there's few choices in our area.

Atomicman, do you know somebody in the PNW who you can confidently recommend for tuning my Atomic's?
post #17 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scalce
I disagree.

Atomics will have the convacity even after a proper stone grind.

If you get an Atomic 100% flat then you have removed way too much material.

I would say that the concavity diminishes after every grind but it is still present.
I'm not talking about Atomics. I'm talking about skis in general.

Some Atomics are so poorly built that yes, you are correct, flattening them completely is a bad idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicman
Sorry, you've got it wrong for Atomics. What Scalce said. And you cannot convince me that a hand grind is as good (read consistent)as a computerized properly set up fully auto Wintersteiger for a simple stonegrind. I don't believe it! (doesn't even m,make logical sense. And when I have watched the shop I go to do it. It does not seem any quicker. Maybe I get "special Atomicman" treatment!
What Scalce said has nothing to do with reality, which is that stone grinding skis properly will reduce or eliminate defects. That some defects are so large that eliminating them isn't feasible has nothing to do with the machine someone is stone grinding them on, and everything to do with a particular manufacturer's design and production problems.

Have you ever actually ground a pair of skis? You know, in the past ten years anyway?

The auto machine isn't necessarily faster, but it is certainly more hands off. I only insert skis once, regardless of number of passes. This allows me to do other things in the meantime.

And trust me, if you are actually watching someone do this, you are getting the special treatment. The treatment for the random guy who doesn't know better is certainly different, regardless of what shop you are talking about. This is unfortunate perhaps, but human nature.

Speaking of your "logical sense", I think you need to know what you are talking about before making such claims. Just how does your automatic machine "create better results", sir? I'd love to hear it. Really.
post #18 of 20
Is ski-tuning really such a contentious topic?

This is starting to sound like the pot-smoking thread (lots of heat a vitreol over there).
post #19 of 20
Personally I take my skis to someone I trust that does it all manually through machines.

I have watched Mike do many tunes while I talk to him in his shop and he is meticulous.

I trust his judgement and expertise while handling any of his hardware.

I am truly spoiled to have someone this close to my home that I can drive my skis over to.
post #20 of 20
A tune is only as good as the tuner, be it a technician or a machine.

When I need major work done (anything that equires a machine) I take it to a small shop here which takes pride in the quality of their work. One of the owners travels with the Canadian snowboard team and prepped JaseyJay's boards for his outstanding season. He also has experience tuning skis on the World Cup with great success. They have only manual grinders, and finish all skis by hand and is race ready. No one gets better service than anyone else. Some of us pay less though.

Auto machines need to be in perfect calibration to result in a top quality tune. A busy shop with a constant stream of skis will have great tunes after the stone redress, but last few pair before the stone gets redressed will not be the best. This is the same with a manual machine, but the tech can see problems before they become too magnified.

Once you have found someone who you think is good, stay with them. If they move shops, move with them. There are only good tunes and poor tunes. A somewhat decent tune does not exist. Sort of like being partially pregnant.
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