or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Herminator

post #1 of 94
Thread Starter 
OK, Bode is hot. But one thing almost as great as what Bode did gets bypassed. Hermann Maier won the Overall WC last year. but he he finished out of the top ten in GS almost the whole winter. Same this year in Soelden. At that time he remarked that becoming a contender in GS again (he won the Gold at Nagano) might be impossible. Yet, two month later in Beaver Creek he was on the podium finished consistently in the top five all season and won the Worlds. What did he do in these two month between Soelden and BC and what did he change ?
post #2 of 94
You know that I know what you´re aiming at, Hans.
Still, was it more a technical or psychological question?
post #3 of 94
Or physical/equipment?
post #4 of 94
He changed his diet (he now drinks a different brand of schnapps)
post #5 of 94
Steroids??
post #6 of 94
I read a thing in Skiing recently that ~90% of his off snow physical conditioning is done on an exercise bike - not in the weight room. The article was pretty interesting
post #7 of 94
gbubnis, I read that too re the Herminator not believing in targeted weight training, but swears by his bike. Reminds me of Herschel Walker, who, some will remember, only did pushups, pullups, and situps--no weights. Of course, Herschel probably started out with a pretty cut physique.

JoeB
post #8 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkracer
You know that I know what you´re aiming at, Hans.
Still, was it more a technical or psychological question?
Ivan: He was 2 and a half seconds out, consistently and he didn't like it. So he looked around. He tried a different boot that gave him different options. But still, he skis totally different now and he gained 2 1/2 seconds in two month. And if you ask me what he is doing different, I cant tell. And then there is Stefan Goergl. The guy is dynamite. What do they talk about when they watch video's and what do their coaches tell them ? I dont think they tell them to switch from "Enzian" to "Slivovitz".
Yes, gbubnis, Hermann doesn't do weights because of his back. He rides the ergometer into oblivion. If you are interested in his program go to "Olympiastuetzpunkt Obertaurn". That's where he hangs out. They have an english version.
post #9 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeB
gbubnis, I read that too re the Herminator not believing in targeted weight training, but swears by his bike. Reminds me of Herschel Walker, who, some will remember, only did pushups, pullups, and situps--no weights. Of course, Herschel probably started out with a pretty cut physique.

JoeB
I thought Maier's story was that he was turned down on the Austrian team because they said he was too small. So he worked as a brick layer for a while to bulk up...

I think you are right though. Someone like Maier with sufficient lower body strength can cut back on weight training. His training program is focused on making his muscles use energy more efficiently.
post #10 of 94
Sure, Sliwowitz versus Jägermeister is just a joke.

The ergometer program has even been made published by the Obertauern boss in a series of 3 articles in Austria Ski. Normally I would be sceptical as far as Maier´s lack of weigt training is concerned but after his injury I can imagine any modification that works - I have some long-time pesronal experience with a body willing to work out but limited by some handicaps.

You´re right that Hermann was almost a GS outsider last season and is a World Champion now. The shooting star Felix Neureuther even had to apologize for some "Maier´s finished, his time´s over"-statements he had said for the media in the fall.

There were so many variables including new boots that it´s very difficult to say what Hermann really did to become "a new winning" Maier.
post #11 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerousBrian
He changed his diet (he now drinks a different brand of schnapps)
Better watch out, Dr. Frau and the rest of the schnapps nazi's will get you for that one...
post #12 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkracer
Sure, Sliwowitz versus Jägermeister is just a joke.
Maybe it was Bailoni (Marillenschnapps). Des ischt oi waesserle...
post #13 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbubnis
I thought Maier's story was that he was turned down on the Austrian team because they said he was too small. So he worked as a brick layer for a while to bulk up...
He is an interesting story. I understand he was a ski instructor who got noticed by the national coaches because he would forerun races and pretty consistantly beat the field.

I would expect that throughout this season he was still making gains coming back from his shattered leg and will continue to regain some of his previous prowess in all events he skis on the WC. Bode should have an even bigger dogfight on his hands next season. The fans are in for a show. It will be interesting to see if Bode's level of comittment has enough staying power to over time to become on of the all-time greats.
post #14 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkracer
Sure, Sliwowitz versus Jägermeister is just a joke.

. The shooting star Felix Neureuther even had to apologize for some "Maier´s finished, his time´s over"-statements he had said for the media in the fall.

.
It was his dad, Christian, who made the remark. He writes a column in a German paper.
Anyway, I am not that interested in the gossip stuff. If you spend any time with the Zarobsky family (I dont think I ever get that spelling right), maybe you can find out what is happening on the WC technique wise.
post #15 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf
It was his dad, Christian, who made the remark. He writes a column in a German paper.
Anyway, I am not that interested in the gossip stuff. If you spend any time with the Zarobsky family (I dont think I ever get that spelling right), maybe you can find out what is happening on the WC technique wise.
I thought it was the young one - but actually I don´t care. The journalists have to fill the papers and mags with not just technicalities and there are lots of poor background stories everywhere.

I only want to comment on Maier´s image "bricklayer and ski teacher who appeared to be better than lots of serious racers". It´s a nice story twisted the way media want it/him to be.
A non-professional racer has to do something for his living - and a season job like a bricklayer in summer is one of the possiblities. Helping out in the family ski school occasionally is also quite logical.
Bricklayer in the summer and occasional ski teacher - he was mainly a ski racer participating in FIS races in the Alps November through April.
A somewhat less twisted life story (the degree of autostylization = ?) was presented in his "the only authorized biography" (written with/by Michael Smejkal)
Ich gehe meinen Weg, Deuticke 1998, (first printing) ISBN 3-216-30410-8

Back to race technique. I´m waiting for May when the training on the glaciers starts and I will be meeting some serious coaches. Even if we´ve been friends with Papa Zahrobsky for at last 10 years I don´t hope to learn much from him: he´s very careful and keeps his "secrets" within their small team. Nevertheless, I´ll do my best. Moreover, there are other people I´ll be discussing the technique with.
I´ll keep you informed, Hans.
post #16 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkracer
was presented in his "the only authorized biography" (written with/by Michael Smejkal)
Ich gehe meinen Weg, Deuticke 1998, (first printing) ISBN 3-216-30410-8
I thought the title of his autobiography was "Mein Kampf". (Just kidding)
post #17 of 94
There was a second book now. I´m not sure about the title...

But it´s really about Hermann´s fight to come back after the motorbike crash - still don´t think it´s what you suggest. (Kidding back.)
post #18 of 94
Maier's book is "Das Rennen Meines Lebens," (The Race of My Life). He talks about his accident, the indifference of many on the Austrian team to the fact that he effectively had his leg cut off, his physical pain, his addiction to painkillers, his sympathy for many people in intensive care, his arduous comeback, missing the Olympics, riding the exercycle. He sounds like a pretty good guy. His biggest win, he says, was his Super G at Kitz the first year he was back from the accident, 2003. After you see what he went through, he's a pretty amazing guy. This is a book that shoudl be published in English--so if any one out there has connectons to publishing...............
post #19 of 94
Thread Starter 

Hm

OK, since Hermann is my hero and ssince I just hurt my ankle and am bored silly, here are a few more bits and pieces. In addition to the two books there ia also the HM Training Routine book (including details on Lactate testing etc)and video. All this plus the HM Video Game can be had at www.hm1.com. Lance Armstrong wrote the introduction to one of the books. They met when Hermann opened the Prolog of the Tour de France 2002. He finished 1 minute behind the slowest competitor. Doesn't sound that great, but it was good enough for Lance.
What I want to know: Is Hermann "waisteering" or not. Anyone who can tell gets a free copy of the HM Video Game.
post #20 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf
What I want to know: Is Hermann "waisteering" or not. Anyone who can tell gets a free copy of the HM Video Game.
And the cat is out of the bag now.
I wonder what the Bears´ opinions on this including MSRT will be.

Sorry to hear about your ankle. It may help you some that I had to cut the last race I could take mainly because of my knee which half-spoiled my entire season so far. :
("scheiss mal endlich drauf," I hear the voices, but I won´t...)
post #21 of 94
What is waisteering? I have never heard the word before.
post #22 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf
OK, since Hermann is my hero and ssince I just hurt my ankle and am bored silly, here are a few more bits and pieces. In addition to the two books there ia also the HM Training Routine book (including details on Lactate testing etc)and video. All this plus the HM Video Game can be had at www.hm1.com. Lance Armstrong wrote the introduction to one of the books. They met when Hermann opened the Prolog of the Tour de France 2002. He finished 1 minute behind the slowest competitor. Doesn't sound that great, but it was good enough for Lance.
What I want to know: Is Hermann "waisteering" or not. Anyone who can tell gets a free copy of the HM Video Game.
What happened to the ankle Hans? On the waisteering thing, what is your definition of waisteering hans? Is this after rotation, pre rotation, or simply skiing from the center? Can the muscles in our core, the inner and outer obliques, the transverse abdominous, and the rectus abdominus turn our skis?

The obliques and the transverse can transfer rotational force, and one can assume that given this, they can possibly create some rotional force if there is some other part of the body anchoring the movement, but do I want to say that leveraging the shoulders and the chest rotationaly against the pelvis and the hips is how Maer is skiing?

So what's up with the waisteering thing Hans? What do "you" make of it? Later, RicB.
post #23 of 94
Anybody that doesn't realize that abdominal obliques are critical in hard-charging skiing has never injured these muscles.
post #24 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
Anybody that doesn't realize that abdominal obliques are critical in hard-charging skiing has never injured these muscles.
I don't think anyone has ever said that the abdominals aren't critical to skiiing. The question remains for me, what is waisteering and what is the effectiveness of the rotational force of the abdominals down to the skis ? Are they a primary turning force, a primary stabilizing and balancing force, a secondary or supplementary force with regards to the term "waisteering". Biowolf you've been pursuing this for awhile and I still don't know your personal take on it? Sharing would maybe help me understand the meaning of the term. later, RicB.
post #25 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
The question remains for me, what is waisteering...
RicB:
I know you´re addressing Hans, not me, and that you both already discussed the topic but maybe for those who are not familiar with the term and theory:
how about the definition

"What they ARE doing is this; they are first getting their ski on edge very early in the turn. They get their skis on edge by using the crossing muscles of the abdomen and hip area to create a twist in the mid-section of the body, the waist. Simply by contracting these crossing muscles and leaving the opposing muscles relax along with articulation or rolling of the ankles they can “rock” their skis sufficiently and quickly on edge to start any turn with either a carve or pivot (PET).

As the turn develops they increase their weight bias to their inside ski and in particular the inside ski uphill edge. Right before they transition to the new turn the weight bias increases rapidly to the uphill ski and once again they use the cross muscles of the waist to rock the skis on edge BEFORE applying pressure in the carving phase of the turn.

This use of the crossing abdominal muscles is what we refer to as Waist Steering (coined by Tommy Kirchhoff) or the “Twist” as used by Gary Dranow.

The use of waist steering coupled with an inside ski weight bias depending on the turn does not end, however, with the initiation of the turn. Moving the weight bias to the inside ski at the carve phase and continuing to use the Twist will keep the outside hip flowing through the turn. This will allow the skier to use the outside ski with more or less pressure to regulate the turn while the inside ski tracks along its carving edge. The outside ski works much like the front wheels of the car while the inside ski creates the power and traction moving from turn to turn."

(http://www.nastar.com/forums/viewtop...=394&start=105)
post #26 of 94
Thread Starter 

Hm

Since I do not know how to put multiple quotes on the same post I have to go about the primitive way.
Ivan: If we apply Erwin Schroedinger's ideas to the cat, what are the probabilities that it is dead or alive ? Or should we apply your suggested motto ?
Ric: I am fishing in the dark. You should know that by now. If I was clear on the subject I wouldn't be here. Right now I am concentrating on Hermann because I can see the difference from last year to 2005. It is dramatic. What he changed I cant analyse clearly. I am only guessing. I dont have your biomechanical background. You would be a good candidate to win the Video Game (just kidding) if you keep moving along the lines you have been recently. I like a lot what you are saying in the other post about the thighs. Could it be that that rotational force starts a little further up ? I had a strange experience the other day. By chance I noticed that I was rotating my waist into the turn. But I was fighting my way down an icy, turny slalom course. Do I do that all the time ? Is it necessary in a carved turn ? Is Hermann doing it ? Wigs discussed a similar subject on a different thread. It did not make sense to me at that time. But there seem to be some converging undercurrents.
post #27 of 94
Checkracer, this is why I am still unsure of the whole concept of waisteering. How can a twist of the abdominals put the skis on edge? this would transfer into a rotational force to the skis wouldn't it?. On the other hand a lateral flexion of the lower spine could result in a lateral move of the pelvis causing a change in inclination, but,,,,,what would happen if the feet were not articulated?

Biowolf, what I would say is that the rotational force is anchored further up. It can be thought of as anticipation, functional tension, engaged but not rigid, ect. the idea that the upper body changes direction less than the skis and legs would suport the idea of the upper body serving as anchor and a storage of or conduit of forces originating from other areas.

I suppose one could look at this picture and say that what is least active is driving what is most active, but I look at it as what moves least allows the success of what moves most.

Can an area of the body that stores and transfers energy also be the origin of that energy? Later, Ricb.
post #28 of 94
Thread Starter 

Ws

OK, Ivan and Ric: We are making some progress here. To start off, I am as skeptical as anyone when it comes to the twist. It goes against everything that is ingrained in my brain. But I have never resisted reconditioning. And what I see on the WC makes me think. Miller definitely rotates his hips. So does Pallander. With the rest it is not so clear. Raich pulls back his inside ski to a degree that it becomes an agressive move and he may push his outside forward at the same time. I encourage you to look at some of the videos at http://www.sport1.at/coremedia/gener...d=2826674.html. It would also be interesting to hear what Wigs has to say about this.
post #29 of 94
Do they rotate their hips or do they just try to eliminate the counter and have them squared?
Which reminds me of my today´s comment in the "tip lead" thread:
http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=28

Another association is the "orientieren/drehen" the Swiss have in their description (I have also mentioned but don´t remember where).

What Ric mercifully writes to Checkracer is still understandable but I´m afraid the rest is too complicated for me - maybe I´ll find a clue when the discussion goes on.

Having read the MSRT and seen the accompanying pics I was rather sceptical as Hans knows from the e-mail.
It reminded me of the "inside ski + rotation"-style some "extreme carvers" use (cf. the thread and post mentioned).

Otoh I may be completely wrong. Especially those comments of Nicola on non-lateral modern technique are somewhat disturbing...
post #30 of 94
Boarders tell me that surfers have been rotating for years. The rotating certainly works in snowboarding. Here's a link that demonstrates it:
http://www.extremecarving.com/tech/tech.html . Plus the movies at this site are pretty neat to watch: http://www.extremecarving.com/movies/movies.html . I learned alpine boarding after watching these movies all summer long in my office. How could you not after seeing these? Although I could never get to the point these guys are at.

Witherell and Evrard call the long, high speed GS, SG, DH ski turn the "Bicycle Lean Angle" (p. 79). Most World Cuppers today use a mini-GS turn in slalom, as well, as Olle Larson has explained in Ski Racing Magazine. I think Maier et al. do a contemporary version of the "Bicycle Lean Angle" by rotating some, but I wonder if he does it just using his waist. It would seem, IMHO, that you'd want to use the entire body. It's more efficient and keeps you centered where you want to be.

I mean, try it. (My dancer friend is big on this--if you read it's supposed to be one way or another, go out and try it.) Stand up and do a 1/4 jump turn. Can you do the turn by using just your waist? Even more basic: can you just stand still and rotate your body to one side just using your lateral obliques?

I'm not telling anyone to kill themselves, but go out on a steeper blue, crank it up straight for 60 or 70 yards and rotate. See what muscles you use. While you're having the ride of your life, try rotating the other direction and see what muscles you use for that. Probably good not to do this on a Saturday afternoon when it's crowded. Probably a good idea to ski the slope once at a slower pace to check it out, too.

Report back to all of us ASAP!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching