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Anticipation on larger turns

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 
As part of my working on small linked turns, I've been concentrating on anticipartion- ie. keeping my torso facing down the fall line whilst rotating my lower legs.

I've noticed that I now do this on almost all of my turns, even large radius carves that sweep across the whole slope on gentle terrain.

Is this a good or bad habit to get into ?
post #2 of 16

Bad Habit

Bad habit.

the more "counter rotated" you get the more you have to "unwind". It usually also leads to more tip lead and a less active inside ski/foot/leg.

The amount of counter you need can be dictated by the amount of tip lead you need in a particular situation. More tip lead (due to steeper slope) would lead to more more hip lead and more counter (or anticipation)
SR turns where you need to generate a little more pivot or rotation force might require more counter or anticipation (especially in bumps for instance) but being squarer to your skis will allow you to work both edges better.

DC
post #3 of 16

Good Habit

Too much counter is bad. No counter is also bad. Some counter helps you get onto your new edges quicker, which helps you round out the upper 1/2 of the turn. You should let counter build up at the end of one turn and release smoothly at the initiation of the next turn.
post #4 of 16
Nicely said, therusty. Counter in a nutshell.

JoeB
post #5 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty
Too much counter is bad. No counter is also bad. Some counter helps you get onto your new edges quicker, which helps you round out the upper 1/2 of the turn. You should let counter build up at the end of one turn and release smoothly at the initiation of the next turn.
In a medium/large turn, I let the counter build naturally by letting my skis come around without my torso (it moves a bit but not as much as my skis). This obviosly straightens up as I start a new turn and unwind and my skis move back into the fall line, then builds up again over the next turn.

I understand how more counter leads to more inside tip lead. What problems does this create ?

DC - What do you mean by a less active inside ski/foot/leg ?
post #6 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by britinnyc
In a medium/large turn, I let the counter build naturally by letting my skis come around without my torso (it moves a bit but not as much as my skis). This obviosly straightens up as I start a new turn and unwind and my skis move back into the fall line, then builds up again over the next turn.

I understand how more counter leads to more inside tip lead. What problems does this create ?

DC - What do you mean by a less active inside ski/foot/leg ?
As you begin to "over counter" usually your inside ski will creep forward creating more lead. This usually puts the leg in a "less strong" position to either apply pressure or maintain shin/toungue contact. Thus less control over the inside ski or as we say in "the Biz" "a weak inside half".

As far as the other problems created, see above,

Also it's extra movements that are not necessary, and it often gets your feet out in front of you or puts you in the back seat requiring a need to make a big move with the upper body to get in front of your feet. Also not very efficient.

DC
post #7 of 16
Thread Starter 
Thanks DC

I've noticed that the more countered I become, the more chance my inside ski loses front end pressure . I'll look out for that tomorrow.
post #8 of 16
If your inside foot is losing "shin contact", that means when you start the next turn, you're behind and have to make a huge forward movement to compensate.
post #9 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by britinnyc
As part of my working on small linked turns, I've been concentrating on anticipartion- ie. keeping my torso facing down the fall line whilst rotating my lower legs.

I've noticed that I now do this on almost all of my turns, even large radius carves that sweep across the whole slope on gentle terrain.

Is this a good or bad habit to get into ?
I would say that the bad habit would be if you are not changing the rate and duration of the pelvis rotating around the stance leg in a long radius turn you are probably using up your range of motion in the hips creating a weaker inside half which can cause light inside ski too much tip lead and oversteering of the inside ski. This can have as a bad effect as not moving the pelvis around the stance leg.

In a long radius turn the body is following the skis more than trying to face down the hill. The skis are the anchor, but you still need some degree of pelvis rotation around the stance leg to maintain effective pressure on the outside ski and draw the inside half forward in a strong position. Don't forget that one key component of this is that the inside hip needs to have a bias towards levle thrugh our turns, meaning we need to have the inside hip lifting up as we allow the pelvis to rotate around the stance leg drawing the inside half forward. Done simply and progresively this will allow the inside leg and ski to function effectively, maintinaing appropiate tip lead and pressure on the inside ski, letting the inside ski movements morror the outside.

In short radius turns the acnchor is the core and upper body and the movement is more directly down the hill, while in a long radius turn the anchor is the skis and the movement is to move inside the turn to the appropriate degree relative to the skis path and not just down the hill. Later, RicB.
post #10 of 16
I like RicB's long and short of it.

From the falline to start of transition I feel my skis/lower body turning more than my upper until I am facing where my body will go across toward the inside of the next turn. That should be enough to allow counterbalancing movements with the upper body, and not be so much that it locks up the hips and legs. Releasing that through the transition, I feel an unwinding that flows forward in an arc across my feet and sets me up for when the pressure comes on in the next turn. This involves passing thru a "sweet spot" where nothing is contrived and alignment is natural, good phase to be breathing (inhaling) before things naturally tense up under power (exhaling).

Counter is something that is functionally flowed into and out of, not artifically contrived, positioned or parked. Playing with the rate of developing and releasing it produces different effects to suit what one's intent is for the turn outcomes. Naturaly quicker in short turns and a little slower in long ones.
post #11 of 16
I really like what RicB and Arcmeister are saying. This is what I would want my student to feel and be doing. My own skiing is changing in this regard and I don't feel quite the same thing as what is decribed here anymore.

My stance width has increased over the past season as the type of rotary I am using to steer my skis has changed. I am using much more of a bulldozering motion that originates in the core instead of a fulcum motion that comes from the hips. My outside ski is running faster than my inside ski and the skis each leave very narrow individual tracks even when they are not producing RR track turns. This type of steering has just about eliminated any unecessary tip lead.

I feel myself skiing out of counter at the hips in the last third of the turn even though my torso is facing the new turn. I think this is because I am decreasing edge angle, keeping my hips over my feet and the outside ski is running faster than the inside ski.

There is a windup of sorts but instead of a quick edge change, I tighten my core and my skis tips start to seek the falline while they are still slightly on the uphill edges. As soon as the tip start seeking the falline I dorsiflex the new inside ankle more than the new outside ankle and roll smoothly and simultaneously through both boot cuffs onto the new edges. This slight dosiflexion of the new inside ankle allows my inside hip to move nicely forward into the power position starting right at the feet. This completely eliminates the kind of upper body motion that has us moving inside the turn to quickly at the top of the turn in order to gain a higher edge.

I can easily pick out my tracks as my turns are well finished and there is a flat spot where both skis hit neutral at the same time. The neutral spot in my tracks is much flatter than it use to be because the edge change is even more progressive and less abrupt. The edge change in my tracks use to look more like a carving snowboard but now mys skis progress off edges to flat and back onto edges over a longer steered track. The skis are tracking an arc into the new turn even as they go flat.

The whole thing I am feeling is two active feet with the ankles able to move in three dimensions all the time. That means active steering right through turn transition and neutral with no momentary shutdown of steering at edge change. I guess I don't feel much of any unwind anymore, everything just flows with constant activity always forward into the turn. I use to edge then guide. Now I never stop guiding or edging through transition. Both feet seem to be guide and ride all the time now. I guess that is why both skis leave their own narrow skidded track in short radius turns now.

I still teach edge then guide and that you have a ride and a guide foot. I think that simplifies learning for students. For a change, I don't think my teaching has caught up with my skiing yet this year.
post #12 of 16
Pierre, are you skiing this way at relatively slow speeds and/or relatively high speeds as well?......why? Sounds like a less dynamic turn suited for slower speeds but may not be very functional at higher speeds? Like to hear more...
post #13 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman
Pierre, are you skiing this way at relatively slow speeds and/or relatively high speeds as well?......why? Sounds like a less dynamic turn suited for slower speeds but may not be very functional at higher speeds? Like to hear more...
Well bud I guess I don't know as I feel like I am never going fast enough anymore. I know that I am getting good G forces at the apex of the turns and getting pretty high edge angles. The turns are very dynamic.

Its also possible that my descriptions of what I am doing have not caught up to my skiing. Always before my understanding and teaching were ahead of my skiing but not this year. My skiing took a quantum leap about the end of January and I have yet to explore and understand all the new sensations I am feeling. There is no feeling of hessitation or any feeling of disconnect in the turn transition. All I have is a feeling of power from one turn to the next.

At the slower speeds I get better carving than I use to at low edge angles. The carving is more even and steered throughout the turns and the skis accelerate better from initiation through the fall line.
post #14 of 16

by the way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
Well bud I guess I don't know as I feel like I am never going fast enough anymore. I know that I am getting good G forces at the apex of the turns and getting pretty high edge angles. The turns are very dynamic.

Its also possible that my descriptions of what I am doing have not caught up to my skiing. Always before my understanding and teaching were ahead of my skiing but not this year. My skiing took a quantum leap about the end of January and I have yet to explore and understand all the new sensations I am feeling. There is no feeling of hessitation or any feeling of disconnect in the turn transition. All I have is a feeling of power from one turn to the next.

At the slower speeds I get better carving than I use to at low edge angles. The carving is more even and steered throughout the turns and the skis accelerate better from initiation through the fall line.
by the way, Pierre, what skis are you on....

I recently borrowed a pair of 12m 157's and have noticed a big leap in my skiing. It may not be a quantum leap....but the sensations you are describing I am beginning to feel on these very slalom skis. Too bad I had to give them back tonight!!!!
post #15 of 16
Arc, I love it that you introduced breathing into the equation. It is so often overlooked and yet to me is so important to flow and the harmony of our movements, not to mention sustaining our energy level. Later, RicB.
post #16 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpski
by the way, Pierre, what skis are you on....

I recently borrowed a pair of 12m 157's and have noticed a big leap in my skiing. It may not be a quantum leap....but the sensations you are describing I am beginning to feel on these very slalom skis. Too bad I had to give them back tonight!!!!
Well I am almost embarassed to say. Either a pair of 167cm 2000-01 Rossi T Powers with 400+ days on them (R around 18-19M) or a Pair of 176 2003-04 Rossi T3 with Hammerhead bindings. (R 16M). I kinda live that old saying that it ain't the arrow, its the indian. I have a good comparison as I bought both pairs new.

Next year I will get on new boards as the bottoms of the T powers are a thin as the gold on a hock shop watch. I want something around 11M R.
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