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The Official Slow Line Fast movement patterns thread - Page 3

post #61 of 86
"Could it maybe be said that you have become an expert skier when your "slow line" is nearly any path down the hill?".

Yes, expert skiers can choose the line they want to ski at will.

Maybe another way to look at it is, with SLF, you choose the line to control your speed and you control the skis to select the line. In the chosen line, you let the skis run (without breaking) as "fast as possible" for the chosen line (this "maximum" speed may be slower than the speed on some other line).

The idea (I think) with SLF is not to actively apply opposing force (eg, deflecting the movement of the CM). Using friction is OK (friction is always happening to varying degrees).

With FLS, you stick to a particular line and control your speed by various forms of breaking.
post #62 of 86
Welcome njkayaker. You summed it up nicely. That is right on.
post #63 of 86
Thread Starter 
It all seems logical to me. I have been skiing the SLF for a long long time just never gave it a name. I think a major issue here is that we cannot allways take the SL. And we should not allways take the SL eather. My definition of expert skiing has been leaning towards a skier that can ski effortlessly efficient and good looking in lots of different terrain and snow conditions. And you cannot do that with bad technique. Mogul skiing is for instance a genre that calls for FL skiing and so is gate racing. But I dont nesessarily see a braking skid at a GS gate as a negative one. Neather do I see a braking skid in free skiing as a negative one. If the situation calls for it braking speed is allowed by skidding or a hockey stop. In powder I use the friction caused by standing deep in snow to controll and brake my speed. Every turn is also crusial for controlling speed and combined they give me the possibilitie to take a FL down a steep shute in a controlled and safe manner.
post #64 of 86
Tdk6, before Pierre jumps all over you, bump skiing can utilize very slow lines (hint- there are alot of ways that go uphill). Also, racing is defined by slow lines (the gates force you to turn, therefore the line is slower than going straight). But you are certainly correct that there are times and places where a skier is better off using braking, but this is more dependent on skill level than terrain.
post #65 of 86
Thread Starter 
MilesB, yes its deffinetly dependent on skill level. If you are good you also know how to brake and avoid a crash for instance. Something a novise is not nesessarily capable of.

When you race you have to brake your speed constantly. Look at car racing, it is all about braking. Same with slalom racing. You need to be able to controll your speed so that you stay on the track. Bode said himself that he cannot carve down more than 2 or 3 gates at the most before hitting the brakes. But Im willing to compromise, its a mixt between SL and FL depending on how the gates are set and what disipline is called for. DH is pritty much FL.

You are right about the bumps though. It doesent have to be just FL. I use the SL when I ski because I cannot bump down in the zipper line anymore. I need to skip bumps every once in a while and go cross to the next one and crash into the bumps so that they slow down my speed because of the hard impact on the piled up snow and the short strech of uphill on the hillside of the bump. But this is not possible on FIS racing tracks and it would not bring me any points.
post #66 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6
Look at car racing, it is all about braking.
Well, yes and no. For example, a car in qualifying...ie: no other cars presenting hazards to brake for, they tune and set up the cars to run flat out all the way around the track.
post #67 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyxjl
PM,

Thanks! That thought occured to me while I was imagining taking the various "slow lines" down the hill (some went through trees, some through crud, some off of drops, etc...) and it occured to me that anyone who could pick any of those lines and ski them all with positive, efficient movement would have to be an expert by any other definition I have heard of. In hindsight, to me it seems almost so obvious I wouldn't be at all surprised to do a search and see the same thing posted long before.

That really does place the bar extremely high for expert skiing, even if the definition makes sense. It does give an easy standard to measure against though. If you can ski more lines today than yesterday, you have improved!
The REAL bar is high -- and should be. There are just a lot of people out there who call themselves experts. In my book, the experts are the examiners, nat'l team coaches, D Team, WC skiers, etc.
post #68 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6
I think a major issue here is that we cannot allways take the SL. And we should not allways take the SL eather.
SLF is "cruising". Can or should you cruise all the time, in every condition? Of course not.

In this thread I see a lot of searching for absolutes. Skiing is never going to explained or summarized in absolutes. In every moment, with every run - the conditions are change and thus must the skier adapt.
post #69 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by klkaye
SLF is "cruising". Can or should you cruise all the time, in every condition? Of course not.

In this thread I see a lot of searching for absolutes. Skiing is never going to explained or summarized in absolutes. In every moment, with every run - the conditions are change and thus must the skier adapt.
Never?
post #70 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstraw
Well, yes and no. For example, a car in qualifying...ie: no other cars presenting hazards to brake for, they tune and set up the cars to run flat out all the way around the track.
Maybe NASCAR racing, there is no way that can be true for road racing.

I really hope this doesn't derail the thread.
post #71 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyxjl
Maybe NASCAR racing, there is no way that can be true for road racing.

I really hope this doesn't derail the thread.
Actually, I had Indy cars in mind.
post #72 of 86
Car racing is bad analagy. How about bobsled.
post #73 of 86
Expert: ex = has been, spurt = drip under pressue, expert = hasbeen drip under pressure.
NASCAR = Non Athletic Sports Competition Attended by Rednecks

Seriously, neither analogy fits. Race cars have brakes and bobsleds are on a fixed line.
Slow Line Fast: Slow Line = rounded, complete turns out of the fall line that cause the skier to slow down, Fast = no braking movements causing loss of momentum. Hence, Slow Line Fast.
post #74 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLATZ
Slow Line Fast: Slow Line = rounded, complete turns out of the fall line that cause the skier to slow down, Fast = no braking movements causing loss of momentum. Hence, Slow Line Fast.
Slatz, dont tempt us to derail this thread into its original topic but a very good definition!

jstraw, you must be joking! No brakes at Indy car qualifying? Brakes are the most important parts on a racing car. The guy with the best brakes wins the race. And the brakes are not for avoiding other cars, they are for redusing speed when comming into a turn. Even if you are driving on an oval track you need to brake hard comming into that left turn every 30 seconds.
post #75 of 86
SLF is more like a Mexican taxi cab instead of a race car. I Mexico, the brakes are in the center of the steering wheel and agility is the key.
post #76 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
SLF is more like a Mexican taxi cab instead of a race car. I Mexico, the brakes are in the center of the steering wheel and agility is the key.
I saw a lot of Mexican taxi cabs at Vail last week. Minus the taxi cab.

They were mostly skiing the slow line slow or the fast line darn near stopped. On the day we had 12"+, they were plowing more snow than the groomers.
post #77 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLATZ
Slow Line = rounded
No, not necessarily..as has been explained about 10 times in this thread. For some, the slow line could be straight down the fall line. Bode Miller's line on a DH run is *his* slow line.
post #78 of 86
jstraw
Am I missing something?
The "slow line" that I first read about in How the Racers Ski (1971) is the one most out of the fall line. The fall line is always the FASTEST line down the hill.
It's not a personal choice, it's physics.
post #79 of 86
I think it's simply a slow enough line so you don't have to put on the brakes, gather yourself together, and start over. I tell people that braking is a failure to look and plan ahead. Balancing in the future is an associated concept: your mind must be on the future turn, not the one you are presently in.

These concepts are easily learned while driving your car. We manage our speed in a car by braking, coasting, and driving (accelerating). If you make a pact only to apply the brakes in a crisis, you will look ahead, plan, and use the coast and the drive to stay on line.
post #80 of 86
The whole idea is to not use the brakes. The shape of the slow line controls speed. After all, it is the SLOW LINE.
I like the phrase "balancing in the future"
edit:
nolo
I didn't read your post carefully enough. I thought you were including braking in the equation.
post #81 of 86
Better watch nolo guys, see only talks about a gas pedal.
post #82 of 86
My car has a radar detector, of course. When it beeps, I brake.
post #83 of 86
Usually that's not soon enough.(been there, got a ticket)
post #84 of 86
Barnes' actual mantra is "a slow enough line as fast as you can". He shortened it to sound catchy and created a world of confusion. Nice going, Bob!
post #85 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLATZ
jstraw
Am I missing something?
The "slow line" that I first read about in How the Racers Ski (1971) is the one most out of the fall line. The fall line is always the FASTEST line down the hill.
It's not a personal choice, it's physics.
Think of it in reverse...in Fast Line Slow, the fast line is a line that requires braking...ipso facto, the slow line is the line that doesn't. This line varies with skill-level. For Bode, the line that requires no braking, *his* slow line, is the fall line. It's not slow because it's *slow*, it's slow because he doesn't have to brake to maintain control. His "fast" line...the line that requires braking...may not *exist*.

In terms of FLS/SLF "fast" and "slow" don't really mean fast and slow.
post #86 of 86
So let me get this right,

SLF is Formula V = Not much horse pressure Smoothe is the word
FLS is Champ Cars = Big motors take big brakes

No response needed, I've been reading ;-)

CalG
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