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# The Official Slow Line Fast movement patterns thread - Page 2

Quote:
 Originally Posted by jstraw How?
Dynamics. When you push yourself around the turn you can push hard at the top and carry that momentum through at the bottom, or you can push hard at the bottom arresting that momentum. Your cg does more of a straigt line down the turn that your skis when doing s-turns down the hill. You alter the speed of your cg by applying forces to the snow and using the reaction forces. Push uphill to go faster.
So where you direct your CM controls acceleration and decelleration as opposed to applying friction to the snow? I think I get that though I'd have to see it exxagerated to understand how it's actually accomplished.

I guess it's back to semantics though. I wouldn't call that braking, personally. To me braking takes place between the ski and the snow. I don't call turning uphill braking either for that matter.

But I do understand that in relation to the concept sking the line you choose with an intention of wringing all the speed out that that line offers, one can choose the same line and either be or not be reaching for every bit of acceleration that is available.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by jstraw So where you direct your CM controls acceleration and decelleration as opposed to applying friction to the snow? I think I get that though I'd have to see it exxagerated to understand how it's actually accomplished.
Actually I think of it a bit different. In the SLF the CM is allowed to flow smoothly where you want it to go and the feet adjust to maintain balance and track under the CM. In the FLS method, the CM is deflected by the feet into the turn, then released into the next turn and balance is maintained through braking. In both cases you can feel pretty balanced and relaxed.

What is critical in the FLS method is timing when and how much the CM is released into the next turn. With SLF the release takes care of itself.
to add my two cents - there are two ways to slow down in a turn

1. apply physical pressure to the ski which is transmitted to the snow
2. stay in the turn long enough for the pressure that has built up to dissipate (energy builds up and you can use it or give it away)

the first one is about a physical braking movement the second is just deceleration.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by klkaye to add my two cents - there are two wants to slow down in a turn 1. apply physical pressure to the ski which is transmitted to the snow 2. stay in the turn long enough for the pressure that has built up to dissipate (energy builds up and you can use it or give it away) the first one is about a physical braking movement the second is just deceleration.
There is a third. Intensity; turn down hill slower. If you ski two turns of similar size and shape. On one turn you turn down hill fast and on the other turn you turn downhill slower. The turn that was intitated slower will take more time to complete and the overall speed will be slower even though you are accelerating throughout the turn. Its a matter of physics. The overall speed is the distance traveled divided by the time. This is the prefered method in bumps.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Pierre I can ski the same size turns with the same overall speed with either FLS or SLF. In the case of FLS the speed is generated in the top half of the turn and taken out in the bottom half of the turn. In the case of SLF the speed is generated throughout the turn with the top half being much slower than the bottom half. In either case timing, and technique are opposite.
This is very interesting. If the top half of each turn is slower than the bottom half, what is happening in the transition from one turn to another? Where is all the momentum going, if there is no "braking?"
Lets be theoretical about it Pierre, if your speed in SLF accelerates through out the turn, what slows you down? Traversing or even going uphill?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by tdk6 Lets be theoretical about it Pierre, if your speed in SLF accelerates through out the turn, what slows you down? Traversing or even going uphill?
Let't not be theoretical about it, let be totally practical cause that is what is going to happen on the slopes. I want to bring in a great quote from the Tip Lead Thread
Quote:
 Originally Posted by SLATZ Pierre Another Harb definition, "brushed carve" = 4 wheel drift in a race car as compared to oversteer which is a skid caused by rotation. Makes sense to me that way at least.
This really sums up everything. We don't ski in a frictionless world where the skis accelerate at the will of gravity and only going uphill will slow things down. Yes, with some turns I end up going uphill a bit but the turns size I select has a lot to do with the friction encountered.

Turning downhill slowly works better in smaller turns with lower edge angles like bump skiing instead of railed large radius turns because there is greater friction under the skis.

What you are getting hung up here on is using a strict definition of SLF. SLF is a whole concept. It is not just the line and it is not without friction. It is about skiing with positive movements to direct the CM into a turn instead of defensive movements to deflect the CM around turns. The skis do accelerate throughout the turn so turns you do have to finish turns much better. That is where the SL definition comes from. The skis do not have to accelerate fast. On the other hand the skis don't slow down as a result of movements that INTENTIONALLY cause friction. Just like the race car driver does not apply brakes to go around a corner.

The SLF is also a teaching concept When instructing, selecting the Fast Line only encourages defensive skiing to continue. In the SLF you select a line that is nearly impossible to hold using the FLS method. When using FLS you do not have enough speed or control to hold the selected line. That line selection encourages the use of positive movements and sets the stage for learning those movements.

Here is the bottom line. In the FLS method, braking/defensive movements are intentionally used as part of the turning mechanism. The CM is not allowed to flow freely. In the SLF method friction may be substantial but is incidental and a result of the skis turning a smaller arc than the skis are capable of in clean carve. The CM is always allowed to flow freely. That is essentially what the quote up above says.

In free skiing, the SLF is all about going when and where you want to go. In instructing, the slow line fast is all about encouraging positive, not negative movement patterns.
So now it's about friction-by-accident vs. friction-on-purpose? Oy! "Brushed carve" sounds like a skid with a good cover story to me.
I guess it will take some time for me to understand the SLF skiing more in depth and detail than Im capable of right now. Pierre, you seem to have a great insight and maybe even your own variation on the consept. One thing I would like to add, my own variation maybe, is that in addition to Bob Barns approval of the wedge and the "ability" factor I look for an approval of cruising along at slow speed just because I feel like it. I dont allways want to go as faast as I can, sometimes I like to cruise along at moderate speed but still using minimal braking moves.

BTW, I was teaching a 7y old girl yesterday for a 2h private session. She could alredy wedge turn and she was very keen on learning. I gave this SLF a lot of thinking during the 2h and I managed in my own opinion to have her going much faster in the slow line that she was doing in the fast line to start with. Her wedge turns were nice because they were with a controlled even minimal skid and she was able to bring her skis parallel at the end of the turn. It worked great and I had a very successfull lesson. Much thank to you guys for bringing this thing to my attention. Im not still ready to abandone the theory that we turn to controll our speed but it will come in time if it comes.
tdk6 - it's really not about going lightening fast - it's about taking the slow line, removing any braking activity and thus travelling that line as quickly as you can (which is not THAT fast because it's the slow line) -- therein lies the BEAUTY of the concept.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by klkaye tdk6 - it's really not about going lightening fast - it's about taking the slow line, removing any braking activity and thus travelling that line as quickly as you can (which is not THAT fast because it's the slow line) -- therein lies the BEAUTY of the concept.
Yes you nailed it.
So, on a steep slope then, depending on one's comfort with speed the slow line may involve quite a bit of travel across the slope. Just turning a hundred times in a path down the fall line doesn't cut it because you are intentionally using the turns as a type of braking. That would be the fast line slow.
onyxjl, yeah. Due to basic physics your speed will increase the closer you come to the fall line. You accellerate all the time and while going past the fall line you will still pick up speed but as you go cross the slope you will slow down. The longer you stay in the traverse line you will slow down and when you have reached the desired lauching speed for next turn you lean in and shift your weight and head into the fall line again. If you carve, the longer radius you have on your skis the faster you will go because the longer you will stay in the fall line. If you skidd you will be able to turn tighter. I like to ski bumps in the SL because my condition is not good enough to take the FL, the zipper line. But thats the line to aim for. FLS is not bad in any way and if you are a good skier you will be able to master both.
I give up. The more I post the more I confuse. I am going to just lay out my version of it as simple as I can. After working with SLF constantly for two years it means something entirely different to me now than it did two years ago.

To me:

"SLF is a teaching concept used to create a learning atmosphere where students can more easily learn and grasp movement patterns that allow the center of mass to flow smoothly throughout all turns with no negative movements away from the intended path."

There is my one sentence definition as it stands right now.

It has no real bearing on what path or line we free ski
It has nothing to do with how much friction is being generated under of skis.
It has no real bearing on overall speed.

The chosen SL in free skiing can be from straight down the fall line to back up hill.

In conversation Weems summed up free skiing the SLF to me. He said "Anymore I don't really care if I am in narley terrain or not. A green groomer is just as good as a double black. All I know is that wherever I am I just wanna haul A\$\$". That means a whole lot more to me now than it did two seasons ago.
I was about to ask how a concept called Slow Line Fast can not have a bearing on what line you take down a slope, but as I began to type a response I realized that I do in fact agree with Pierre's definition.

I think what Pierre is trying to stress is that there is no "slow line" which you could go out and mark on the hill with a big magic marker. Your personal comfort with speed will determine what your slow line is. That line is exactly the line(s) you can ski entirely with efficient, positive movements.

You adopt SLF and it chooses the line for you, not the other way around.

Could it maybe be said that you have become an expert skier when your "slow line" is nearly any path down the hill?

### Pierre is going to explode.....

Sorry Pierre but it will take some time for me to absorb the depest philosiphy behind your twist of the SLF. It took you 2 years to get this far so it will take some time for me as well.

Im also not too shure I just wanna haul A\$\$ all the time. And the negative moves are offcourse what you define as a negative moves. I dont consider inside tip lead, weight transfer, outside ski pressuring, hip into turn, upper body countering, upper and lower body separation, A-frame and wedging negative moves and I teach students to brake their speed by turning off of the fall line.

When I teach mostly first timers my first mission is to get the students to stand up, then glide on the skis. Then I teach them to stop. Then I teach them to turn, link turns and get a flow going. The line I teach students to take is depending on the terrain. I teach them to turn where there is snow, to avoid steep parts by going traverse and to keep an eye open for other skiers and to allways be able to stop within seconds. I also focus all the time on avoiding teaching them negative moves such as into the slope leaning, hip and upper body rotation, lifting of skis while turning in order to make tighter turns, windmill hands, ancle twisting and cursing which are all the most typical faults I have to correct with students that alredy can ski! Skiing should be safe and fun but its also about pushing your limits.
tdk6 - with all due respect - I think you're dwelling on the word "fast".

in this instance "fast" only means "no braking movements"

the line is controlling the speed, not braking movements. the rate at which you travel the "slow line" is determined by each skier - according to individual preference.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by onyxjl ...Could it maybe be said that you have become an expert skier when your "slow line" is nearly any path down the hill?
Not to derail this thread, but I have to make a quick comment on the above quote.

There have been a lot of threads on Epic and other skiing forums about the definition of "expert skier". I want to think about your definition a bit more, but my immediate reaction is that you may have just come up with one of the best definitions yet.

Tom / PM

PS - Unfortunately, I suspect that extremely few people not on Epic will understand it.
SLF to me means carry speed and don't make any braking moves. As someone else said "the line controls the speed".
tdk6
Ask Mika Hakkenin the difference between a four wheel drift and oversteer.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by tdk6 onyxjl, yeah. Due to basic physics your speed will increase the closer you come to the fall line. You accellerate all the time and while going past the fall line you will still pick up speed but as you go cross the slope you will slow down. The longer you stay in the traverse line you will slow down and when you have reached the desired lauching speed for next turn you lean in and shift your weight and head into the fall line again. If you carve, the longer radius you have on your skis the faster you will go because the longer you will stay in the fall line. If you skidd you will be able to turn tighter. I like to ski bumps in the SL because my condition is not good enough to take the FL, the zipper line. But thats the line to aim for. FLS is not bad in any way and if you are a good skier you will be able to master both.

The idea of SLF is NOT to "traverse", but rather to keep the turn going until your speed is comfortable for you. Then you begin another turn, accepting whatever speed results during that part of the turn when you're pointing downhill because you know you can continue that turn until you're at your comfortable speed again. You can carve or scarve SLF. Skidding the tails to an edge set for braking is not SLF, it's FLS.
Im just a little confused by the fact that some say that SLF is all about going as faast as you can down a longer line while some say its just a way to ski a longer line without any negative moves.

SLATZ, LOL, 4 weel drift and Häkkinen! Yes, those guys are a little crazyer than most of us!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by tdk6 Im just a little confused by the fact that some say that SLF is all about going as faast as you can down a longer line while some say its just a way to ski a longer line without any negative moves.
Negative movement inhibit skiing down a longer line as fast as you can. You are trying to break it down to much. They are one in the same.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Pierre Negative movement inhibit skiing down a longer line as fast as you can. You are trying to break it down to much. They are one in the same.
Why is this so hard to understand?

This is not that tough of a concept. Accomplishment of the task may be another matter, but understanding it...:
tdk6
Thanks for the spelling correction
Pierre,
This whole thread has me amused, it seems nobody is addressing the high end issue: Skiing the fast line fast. Being able to make clean efficient movements in all terrain and at any time, also learning to read terrain to best take advantage of your technique, equipment, and fitness level.
Just my 2cents.

Chuck
Quote:
 Originally Posted by chuckc Pierre, This whole thread has me amused, it seems nobody is addressing the high end issue: Skiing the fast line fast. Being able to make clean efficient movements in all terrain and at any time, also learning to read terrain to best take advantage of your technique, equipment, and fitness level. Just my 2cents. Chuck
There is no fast line fast between the two techniques. Your idea of the fast line fast is my idea of the fast line slow.

As far as reading terrain. Keep your head down if you are following Chuck. Remember terrain can be three dimensional.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Pierre There is no fast line fast between the two techniques. Your idea of the fast line fast is my idea of the fast line slow. As far as reading terrain. Keep your head down if you are following Chuck. Remember terrain can be three dimensional.
Hmm...I thought any line you can ski fast *is* the slow line.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by jstraw Hmm...I thought any line you can ski fast *is* the slow line.
Opps, typo your right.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by PhysicsMan I want to think about your definition a bit more, but my immediate reaction is that you may have just come up with one of the best definitions yet. ... PS - Unfortunately, I suspect that extremely few people not on Epic will understand it.
PM,

Thanks! That thought occured to me while I was imagining taking the various "slow lines" down the hill (some went through trees, some through crud, some off of drops, etc...) and it occured to me that anyone who could pick any of those lines and ski them all with positive, efficient movement would have to be an expert by any other definition I have heard of. In hindsight, to me it seems almost so obvious I wouldn't be at all surprised to do a search and see the same thing posted long before.

That really does place the bar extremely high for expert skiing, even if the definition makes sense. It does give an easy standard to measure against though. If you can ski more lines today than yesterday, you have improved!
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