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Tuning tips - Page 2

post #31 of 55
I don't know what your trying to get at. I have filed, drilled and hacksawed bicycle titanium. As long as the tools are sharp, there is no problem.
post #32 of 55
Quote:
I don't know what your trying to get at. I have filed, drilled and hacksawed bicycle titanium. As long as the tools are sharp, there is no problem.
Because you haven't drilled on the Campy pedal with titanium spindle back in the 70's.
post #33 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by da-bum
I remember bicycle parts made of titanium back in the 70's, with its tendency to snap. Improvements came later on that made it much stronger in that respect.

The question is how much aluminum there is in the titanium. If it actaully softens to the point where it could be scraped off with a file, then it might be one of those titanal with much less than 80% titanium
You really don't have any clue what you are talking about, do you? Titanium is alloyed to increase strength.

Believe it or not, you can cut titanium with a good tool blade, or any abrasive. It is not Kryptonite.

Quote:
The wrought product forms of titanium and titanium-base alloys, which include forgings and typical mill products, constitute more than 70% of the market in titanium and titanium alloy production. The wrought products are the most readily available product form of titanium-base materials...


...


The strengths vary from 480 MPa for some grades of commercial titanium to about 1100 MPa for structural titanium alloy products and over 1725 MPa for special forms such as wires and springs.

...


Pure titanium wrought products, which have minimum titanium contents ranging from about 98,635 to 99,5 wt%, are used primarily for corrosion resistance. Titanium products are also useful for fabrication but have relatively low strength in service.

Meh.
post #34 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by da-bum
Because you haven't drilled on the Campy pedal with titanium spindle back in the 70's.
Whats the price of tea in China again?
post #35 of 55
Quote:
You really don't have any clue what you are talking about, do you? Titanium is alloyed to increase strength.
Ski tech talk seems to be more geared to wow consumers than for useful information, or else they would be specifying the type of titanium alloy.
post #36 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by da-bum
then Atomic must have been misquoting themself, since almost everywhere I look, it seem to say the topsheet is Aerospeed Titanium.
Aerospeed is the dimple pattern of the topsheet. The titanium is only in the Puls (if it has any). Otherwise, the supporting structure are the magnesium channels.
post #37 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by da-bum
Ski tech talk seems to be more geared to wow consumers than for useful information, or else they would be specifying the type of titanium alloy.
Yes. This much is true.
post #38 of 55
Da-bum, here's an idea... Why don't you use your multi-millions and develop your own skis and test all the materials. Once you have perfected your product, tell everyone EXACTLY what you used and how you made it work.

Why should a ski manufacturer tell anyone how something was made and what materials were used. They tell you there is titanium in the alloy. The proportions are irrelevant to anyone on the outside of the production walls. Even the sales guys have no idea about the exact make-up.
post #39 of 55
Betaracer: I would note that in some industries, it is much more common to talk about the actual materials of construction. Bikes, for example.

However, you make a good point.
post #40 of 55
It ain't hard for a competitor to cut open their product and see what exactly it is made of.

I know bikes don't use gizmos like magnet, or piezos as their main selling point. I'm surprised ski rags lets mfgs hype those features as the greatest thing since steel edge, and they go along on the whole thing. Maybe it is their overall marketing scheme like painting a top racer's hand made ski to look like one that's available off the shelf so that everyone that sees it would go out and buy the same looking one.
post #41 of 55
At some point, the ski industry will learn the lesson of the Purple Cow. Until then, most will continue to use outdated marketing and advertising techniques, effectively throwing away a lot of otherwise useful resources.

I'll go one step further: the people in the industry who learn the lesson first will become very successful, and will have quite a lead before the rest of the industry begins to figure out the "Why?". I believe that the Atomic Metron is an example of a Purple Cow, but suspect that Atomic may rest on it too long--that it's not really a mindset, but is almost a "lucky strike" and may simply not generate additional leadership by Atomic. We'll see...
post #42 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by da-bum
It ain't hard for a competitor to cut open their product and see what exactly it is made of.
Figuring out an alloy can be a bit challenging...
post #43 of 55
There is much more to building a ski than having the materials. Testing with different quantities, pressures, temperatures all result in different results. You want all that info too? You think cutting a ski will give that info?

Bikes are a much different business. What you see is what you get, however do you know what alloying materials are in every metal? Do you know how many wraps of carbon fibre a road fork has? Even custom frame builders don't know the exact makeup of the tubes they weld. They buy from manufacturers like Columbus or Easton and get instructions on how best to join the materials. The purchaser buys an Aluminum 7005 bike with Carbon stays and fork (if it is road) but gets no other info. Do they ask for alloy ratios? No, because it doesn't make a shit of difference.

Marketing plays a role in ski sales, but manufacturers have demo programs (either with retailers or on-hill programs) to allow skiers to test their product. If a ski works for a certain individual, what's more to know? I don't think anyone who frequents this site can honestly tell me they don't like a ski, but if the manufacturer added a .001mm thick layer of 6-4 Titanium sheet 3cm wide from 10cm back from the tip to 6cm from the tail, with an omega profile, and sandwiched it in .1mm kevlar at 45degree bias weave will make it awesome. There are true engineers who design skis for you out there. They figure out what they feel will work in their intended conditions. Not everything works for everyone, but something out there will be the right ski for someone.

I have no idea how this thread took such a wrong turn from the original question of tuning. A little knowledge can do a lot of damage. Nice job troll.
post #44 of 55
[quote=Betaracer]
Quote:
Marketing plays a role in ski sales, but manufacturers have demo programs (either with retailers or on-hill programs) to allow skiers to test their product. If a ski works for a certain individual, what's more to know? I don't think anyone who frequents this site can honestly tell me they don't like a ski, but if the manufacturer added a .001mm thick layer of 6-4 Titanium sheet 3cm wide from 10cm back from the tip to 6cm from the tail, with an omega profile, and sandwiched it in .1mm kevlar at 45degree bias weave will make it awesome.
Probably not, but there are plenty of skiers here that could say "Boy, this ski would be better with some more (or less) metal in it."

As you point out, this is why nothing beats skiing on a ski to figure out what you like/don't like.

All this said, there is an enormous BS marketing engine in the ski industry, and Atomic is right on top of it. There are industries that are far worse. Tires, for example. Good luck finding technical info about tires, or trying to make an informed purchase decision that goes beyond he/she said and so on.

Quote:
I have no idea how this thread took such a wrong turn from the original question of tuning. A little knowledge can do a lot of damage. Nice job troll.
Welcome to the internet. The Land of More Wrong Turns.

ssh: I don't know much about materials science, but I don't believe identifying a particular alloy is difficult for those with the appropriate tools.
post #45 of 55
Quote:
What you see is what you get, however do you know what alloying materials are in every metal? Do you know how many wraps of carbon fibre a road fork has? Even custom frame builders don't know the exact makeup of the tubes they weld. They buy from manufacturers like Columbus or Easton and get instructions on how best to join the materials. The purchaser buys an Aluminum 7005 bike with Carbon stays and fork (if it is road) but gets no other info. Do they ask for alloy ratios? No, because it doesn't make a shit of difference.
You obviously don't know much about bikes. Every little thing is known, including alloy ratio, tempering method, butting thickness, internal ribbing, forging techniques, investment cast method, seamless rolling, brazing method.... I guess if Huffy sponsored roads teams, they would be making their $200 deals look like their racing models. That is how ski industry is though.
post #46 of 55
I was taught:

- prep skis by planing the sidewall (only need to do this once - do it well)
- use file to set the bevel, repeat whenever the edge is badly maligned
- use a diamondstone to sharpen and debur as often as necessary
- a ceramic stone is the best finish to a freshly sharpened edge
- don't detune any part of the ski
- prep the base for wax - it needs to be pourous
- wax well and often

:-)
post #47 of 55
You obviouslty have no clue about the ski industry. We're even then. Do you remember the 7-11 road team? They had Huffy graphics on their bikes. Do you follow DH and SL mountain biking? How many different brands have their decals on Intense bikes? How many pro road cyclists have custom bikes paiinted to match what their teams are sponsored by. The bike industry isn't as open as you think it is. Lots of smoke and mirrors there.

Now, I can sleep. Troll.
post #48 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by klkaye
I was taught:

- prep skis by planing the sidewall (only need to do this once - do it well)

:-)
Excellent list, but done correctly, you'll need to do the above more than once. IMO anyways.
post #49 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betaracer
There is no reason to detune the edges if conditions are soft. Just use less edge pressure. A carpenter doesn't dull his saws or chisels to cut pine and resharpen to cut oak. Nor does a chef alter the knives depending on the food prepared. The tools are always sharp.
great analogies, Betaracer. thanks.
post #50 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betaracer
You obviouslty have no clue about the ski industry. We're even then. Do you remember the 7-11 road team? They had Huffy graphics on their bikes. Do you follow DH and SL mountain biking? How many different brands have their decals on Intense bikes? How many pro road cyclists have custom bikes paiinted to match what their teams are sponsored by. The bike industry isn't as open as you think it is. Lots of smoke and mirrors there.

Now, I can sleep. Troll.
thank you. ignorance should be criminal.
post #51 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by da-bum
You obviously don't know much about bikes. Every little thing is known, including alloy ratio, tempering method, butting thickness, internal ribbing, forging techniques, investment cast method, seamless rolling, brazing method.... I guess if Huffy sponsored roads teams, they would be making their $200 deals look like their racing models. That is how ski industry is though.
and you, clueless moron, state a brazen assertion with nothing to back it up except palabric onanism.

you, sir, are the narcissistic troll that spends too much time looking in the mirror.
post #52 of 55
skiingman - when I was taught I asked how often it had to be done and was told just once - do it properly and pull enough of the sidewall back.

???
post #53 of 55
Planing needs to be done when it needs to be done. As soon at the file hits what is not the edge (sidewall or cap) you need to take a bit more off. Always learn. Things change.
post #54 of 55
Yeah. For a variety of reasons, planing all of the sidewall back at once is not a good idea. It is easier to get a consistent pull/push on the fileif you don't pull it all at once, it makes the edge somewhat stronger, and if done properly makes your sidewalls faster.
post #55 of 55
Quote:
and you, clueless moron, state a brazen assertion with nothing to back it up except palabric onanism.

you, sir, are the narcissistic troll that spends too much time looking in the mirror.
I think you could read posts by others above to know that the ski industry is half smoke. Maybe it is the people who they are market their product to. Middle aged people with lots of money.
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