EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Technical Question re: Pulling Back Inside Foot
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Technical Question re: Pulling Back Inside Foot - Page 2

post #31 of 52
I do believe that pulling the inside foot back is a valid remedy to correct a lagging CM after turn initiation. A few years ago I started doing that with great results. But as people mentioned here, you only have to pull your inside foot back if it is too far forward. So I was correcting something and eventually I "grew out of it".

Today I sometimes try to exagerate the "pulling back of the inside foot" only to realize that it has nowhere to go. In other words, I now have my CM and inside foot properly aligned at turn initiation, so that movement has become generally unnecesary.

Of course, I sometimes do find myself "lagging behind" my feet and a strong pull of the inside foot (or both feet if necessary) will correct things in a hurry.
post #32 of 52
Kneale said: "The whole point of flexing the ankle as part of your initiation is to AVOID the need to pull the foot back. If you're having to pull it back, you're doing a two-step dance into the turn."

I don't believe it is pulling it back as much as HOLDING it back. If that is the case, it is not a "two-step dance".
post #33 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcat
For the record, I've done some body work the last few years that has changed my alignment--for the better. I am no longer slightly bow legged and don't pronate nearly as much as I did. I can flex my ankles much more easily than before. So, I changed my Technica cuff alignment to neutral. Also, my feet are much more comfortable in my boots with the stock liners and not the fancy custom orthotics. I'm more comfortable than ever before and skiing in alignment. It's a great feeling!
Do tell, Nightcat! What "body work" have you done?
post #34 of 52

not stepping on anyones big or little toes

Quote:
Originally Posted by josseph
when you focus on flexing the ankle, you are more apt to move your CM up and over relative to that (presumably new) inside ski. And this seems to be more consistent with the philosophy of the CM moving continuously and smoothly into turns and down the slope.

On the other hand, if the focus is on pulling back the ski, your hips and CM is more apt to remain static while the ski gets pulled back under the CM. After that move, the CM still needs to be moved over to comit into the turn. Is this the two step you are talking about?

Please correct me if I am off base in what you are trying to say.

Kneale has a good point, and I hope Im not stepping on any toes here, I have played with this alot this season. I think Kneale means that the emphasis should be on functional alignment of all body segments throughout the turn. keep everything functionally lined up from initiation on and you should be good-to-go through turn finish.

The strong inside half takes care of having to "move up" at all to start the turn. All you need do is transfer your weight to the new outside ski because it is already in a position to be utilized.

If you feel the need to make an adjustment in tip lead, something was probably out of sinc or slightly mis-aligned when you started the turn...

In my opinion, this move should be played with to find the most efficient amount of "boot lead" for each individual.

When do YOU make the move? (If you need to "make" it at all)

I think its during turn transition....Its kinda like riding a Nordic Trac without lifting your heels...Come to think of it, its more a constant "shuffling" throughout each turn.

Should the move have to be "made"?

I wonder. If your hips are aligned, and strong on the inside half, you should already have the correct amount of "lead".

Is this a progressive set of actions or a "move"?

I think it blends in with everything else in a functional turn.

hmm, now youve got me thinking about it again....
post #35 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by josseph
If I understand you correctly, Kneale, I am interpreting what you are saying as: when you focus on flexing the ankle, you are more apt to move your CM up and over relative to that (presumably new) inside ski. And this seems to be more consistent with the philosophy of the CM moving continuously and smoothly into turns and down the slope.

On the other hand, if the focus is on pulling back the ski, your hips and CM is more apt to remain static while the ski gets pulled back under the CM. After that move, the CM still needs to be moved over to comit into the turn. Is this the two step you are talking about?

Please correct me if I am off base in what you are trying to say.
You got it, Josseph. When I flex my new inside ankle into the new turn, all of me moves forward and into that turn with both skis on their new edges.
post #36 of 52
JPSki, the "move" (flexing the new inside ankle) is something that occurs in a continuum from "neutral" where the skis are flat on the snow, the torso square with the matched skis, etc. Neutral, of course is something you seek to pass through on the way from the ending of the previous turn. And, of course, the new inside ankle flexes along with the new outside one.
post #37 of 52

Functions of pulling the foot back

For a PMTS based view on this subject, I'll repost my response to a similar question that was originally posted in a thread on the PMTS forum - by the way, this one gets beat to death every so often over there also (http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?t=489&sid=389d7a292c60cbff9b4dda91a7 957280).


Pulling the foot back has a general function for balance and it also has an additional function in each part of the turn.

The general function of dorsiflexion (pulling the toes up while pushing the heel back) /Plantar flexion (pointing the toes and pushing the foot forward) is that they control fore and aft balance.

When you hear people say "get forward" or "move your balance back" and you wonder "how do I do that?" This is how. It is less important to rely on cenetered-ness "as a stance position" and more important to learn how to find cenetered as a movement. [this is completely consistent with Arcmeisters comments].

Beyond this, these movements also have other functions during the turn.

In the release phase, dorsiflexion and generally pulling the foot back helps the skis seek the fall line faster in the top of the turn even when the skis are flat -- this becomes especially important in the steeps and the bumps. This also makes sure that your body is centered at the top of the turn. Some people find that focusing on just the new free foot is the best, others find that doing the movement in both feet is more effective. Whichever works.

In the engagement phase, dorsiflexion and generally pulling the free foot back also controls fore/aft balance However, just as important, it facilitates inversion of the free foot and helps produce greater ski angles and increase engagement.

Just try standing on the slope with a naturally narrow stance. Now, push the uphill foot out in front so that the heel of the uphill foot is in front of the downhill foot. Holding this position, and without flexing your legs, try to tip the uphill foot toward its little toe edge using your foot/ankle.

With your free foot leading, you will very quickly reach the limit of your tipping ability.

Now, pull the foot back so that the toe of the uphill boot is slightly behind the toe of the downhill boot. Holding this position, try to tip the uphill foot toward its little toe edge using your foot/ankle.

You will notice a big difference in the amount of inversion that is available if you continue to invert while you hold the foot back.

Hope you find this helpful and/or interesting.
post #38 of 52
Effective skiing is having both skis engagued throughout the turn. To carve on the outside edge of the ski involves progressive flexing of the ankle and leg (try it on one foot). If the foot has to be pulled back during the turn, the ankle is not flexed enough from the beginning.
post #39 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White
Effective skiing is having both skis engagued throughout the turn. To carve on the outside edge of the ski involves progressive flexing of the ankle and leg (try it on one foot). If the foot has to be pulled back during the turn, the ankle is not flexed enough from the beginning.
Bull
post #40 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkierSynergy
For a PMTS based view on this subject, I'll repost my response to a similar question that was originally posted in a thread on the PMTS forum - by the way, this one gets beat to death every so often over there also (http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?t=489&sid=389d7a292c60cbff9b4dda91a7 957280).


Pulling the foot back has a general function for balance and it also has an additional function in each part of the turn.

The general function of dorsiflexion (pulling the toes up while pushing the heel back) /Plantar flexion (pointing the toes and pushing the foot forward) is that they control fore and aft balance.

When you hear people say "get forward" or "move your balance back" and you wonder "how do I do that?" This is how. It is less important to rely on cenetered-ness "as a stance position" and more important to learn how to find cenetered as a movement. [this is completely consistent with Arcmeisters comments].

Beyond this, these movements also have other functions during the turn.

In the release phase, dorsiflexion and generally pulling the foot back helps the skis seek the fall line faster in the top of the turn even when the skis are flat -- this becomes especially important in the steeps and the bumps. This also makes sure that your body is centered at the top of the turn. Some people find that focusing on just the new free foot is the best, others find that doing the movement in both feet is more effective. Whichever works.

In the engagement phase, dorsiflexion and generally pulling the free foot back also controls fore/aft balance However, just as important, it facilitates inversion of the free foot and helps produce greater ski angles and increase engagement.

Just try standing on the slope with a naturally narrow stance. Now, push the uphill foot out in front so that the heel of the uphill foot is in front of the downhill foot. Holding this position, and without flexing your legs, try to tip the uphill foot toward its little toe edge using your foot/ankle.

With your free foot leading, you will very quickly reach the limit of your tipping ability.

Now, pull the foot back so that the toe of the uphill boot is slightly behind the toe of the downhill boot. Holding this position, try to tip the uphill foot toward its little toe edge using your foot/ankle.

You will notice a big difference in the amount of inversion that is available if you continue to invert while you hold the foot back.

Hope you find this helpful and/or interesting.
No bull! good Post!
post #41 of 52
I stand by my post---Take a lesson from a world class skiier (olympic champion), he or she will tell you the same thing.
post #42 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White
I stand by my post---Take a lesson from a world class skiier (olympic champion), he or she will tell you the same thing.
Read the final paragraph! ala Olle Larsson and yes it is from 2000 but not an issue!

http://www.youcanski.com/english/coa...hort_story.htm
post #43 of 52
Read the paragraph before the last---you must hold the inside foot back--- the skiier in the photo had to pull it back to make up for his mistake
post #44 of 52
Actually Bakke's example was the one I was referrikng to and you are just reading into it something that is not there. Olle never mentions any "Mistake" or recovery from a wrong body position. On the contrary to get forward as needed quickly you pull the foot back! He says she is forward because she pulled her inside foot back!!!!!

You are making things up that are not there

FORWARD BODY POSITION. (entering the turn, it does not say finishing the previous turn,you are not and should not be as forward in the transition, crossover or under!))

A forward body position entering the turn is of utmost importance. Bakke’s forward body position makes the outside ski’s front half bend more than the tail. This forward pressure will lead the ski into quick and tight radius carves. This forward body position exerts great pressure on the tibia against the tongue of the boot, which in turn bends the front of the ski. The skier must be able to bend the ankle in the ski boot. However, at a certain point the ski boot must stop bending forward. It is at this time maximum pressure is transferred to the front of the ski. Her pelvis is forward and noticeably ahead of her outside foot. To acquire a forward position the racer must hold the inside foot back. Both tibias are bent forward to almost the same degree.

Where doews it mention correction or mistake or out of balance or misalignment! NOT!


LeMaster subscribes to a similar philosophy!
post #45 of 52

Pulling the foot back is a process, not a place.

There are lots of reasons one might have to pull the free foot back MORE. One set has to do with correcting imbalances. Others have to do with increasing the effects associated with either the release or engagement aspects of a turn -- e.g., "If you want to be able to increase free foot tipping and increase stance foot engagement, then pull the free foot back more aggressively." Even other reasons are related to nuances of being fast: letting the pressure shift slightly to the heels and the feet to ride out a bit at the bottom of the turn demands that you know how to get it all back under you again at the beginning of the release.

Therefore I would say that one should not think of the pulling the foot back as a "place" (i.e., centered, etc.) but as a process or movement that is done for various purposes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkierSynergy
It is less important to rely on cenetered-ness "as a stance position" and more important to learn how to find cenetered as a movement.
This is one of the big gripes that I have with a lot of instructors and coaches who try to demonstarte or produce a particular stance in their skiers, but can't tell them the movements that take their skiers in and out of that stance. Usually, those instructors say things like "get your hips forward," "try to stay centered," etc., but can't tell you the basic movements of how to do that. There are similar problems with "move the CM into the turn" When there are well defined and simple movements that cause this to happen and facillitate it.

On the issue of carving both edges: It depends. Sometimes it is best to have a strong early transfer (most slalom turns are in this category) and sometimes it is best to not transfer at all until a long way into the turn (read Von G's GS turns here). Rather than a general rule, I think the choice is a stategic issue of when/if one decides to transfer weight from one ski to the other for particular purposes.
post #46 of 52
Ski-S

I would concur with most if not all you have said. But White's inference that Olle Larsson is talking about correcting a mistake is just not in this article!

A-man!
post #47 of 52
Heading into a steep pitch Tescari’s forward position makes his skis bend from the tip to the tail (photo 3). For the skier to advance forward it is essential to hold the inside foot back. Notice that his left foot is leading well ahead of his right foot (downhill foot) in photo 4.
The angle of his two lower legs (tibias) is clearly different while in photos 2 and 3 the tibias have almost parallel angles. To acquire a forward body position correctly positioning the uphill foot is very important. If Tescari had started his turn with his uphill foot positioned ahead of the downhill foot, as demonstrated in photo 4, it would have been difficult to generate pressure on the front of the downhill ski. At the start of the turn, the combination of the uphill foot far ahead of the downhill foot and pressure on the uphill ski will stop the skier from getting a forward position.

— Olle LARSSON - March 2000
looks like it to me
post #48 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White
Heading into a steep pitch Tescari’s forward position makes his skis bend from the tip to the tail (photo 3). For the skier to advance forward it is essential to hold the inside foot back. Notice that his left foot is leading well ahead of his right foot (downhill foot) in photo 4.
The angle of his two lower legs (tibias) is clearly different while in photos 2 and 3 the tibias have almost parallel angles. To acquire a forward body position correctly positioning the uphill foot is very important. If Tescari had started his turn with his uphill foot positioned ahead of the downhill foot, as demonstrated in photo 4, it would have been difficult to generate pressure on the front of the downhill ski. At the start of the turn, the combination of the uphill foot far ahead of the downhill foot and pressure on the uphill ski will stop the skier from getting a forward position.

— Olle LARSSON - March 2000
looks like it to me
What are you talking about?

He is saying in order ot ski correctly into this pitch and get forward the skier should be holding his inside footback. In this example he is pointing out that too much lead change is a mistake, not saying he is correcting by holding his footback! He is not holding his footback & that is a problem!

FABRIZIO TESCARI, Italy

Heading into a steep pitch Tescari’s forward position makes his skis bend from the tip to the tail (photo 3). For the skier to advance forward it is essential to hold the inside foot back. (Hello???He is not doing this) Notice that his left foot is leading well ahead of his right foot (downhill foot) in photo 4.

Wow, that is interesting, trying to support your pposition with a statement that supports mine. Quite a strategy!
post #49 of 52
Slalom skiers are not forward all the time. In fact they are usually quite far aft at the end of their turns as seen here. First the left foot MOVED forward then the right (as seen in the last picture).
As SkierSynergy points out it's MOVEMENT. If you showed every frame of a video clip, as Ron LeMaster does in his presentations, no two would be the same.
LeMaster says "good skiers MOVE their feet back and forth under themselves to adjust balance". When I first read that in The Nuts and Bolts of Skiing, almost 10 years ago, it was a real breakthrough for me.
post #50 of 52
Quote:
He is saying in order ot ski correctly into this pitch and get forward the skier should be holding his inside footback. In this example he is pointing out that too much lead change is a mistake, not saying he is correcting by holding his footback! He is not holding his footback & that is a problem!
Atomicman, now I think we agree. Holding it back and pulling it back are 2 different things.
Ron
post #51 of 52
Ok!
post #52 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White
Atomicman, now I think we agree. Holding it back and pulling it back are 2 different things.
Ron
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Ok!
Boy am I glad you two finally made peace, wanna give the middle east a shot next??
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Technical Question re: Pulling Back Inside Foot