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Do we suppose to tip the private ski instructor? - Page 3

post #61 of 86

Got stiffed once

We were skiing in Steamboat once and my wife decided to take a group snowboard lesson one day. After the day was done the group (I met up with them) decided to hit happy hour. Well happy hour lasted 3 hours with many beers/food. Once the bill arrives the instructor said he'll be right back he's going to the rest room. That was the last time we saw him, he bolted.
Totally classless thing to do, the group I"m sure would have picked up his part of the tab but to just bolt was unbelieveably rude. I had half a mind to call the resort but figured it was a waste of my time.
This whole tipping thing in the US has gotten WAY out of hand. Next thing you know the bank tellers will want tips.......
post #62 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayview
We were skiing in Steamboat once and my wife decided to take a group snowboard lesson one day. After the day was done the group (I met up with them) decided to hit happy hour. Well happy hour lasted 3 hours with many beers/food. Once the bill arrives the instructor said he'll be right back he's going to the rest room. That was the last time we saw him, he bolted.
Totally classless thing to do, the group I"m sure would have picked up his part of the tab but to just bolt was unbelieveably rude. I had half a mind to call the resort but figured it was a waste of my time.
This whole tipping thing in the US has gotten WAY out of hand. Next thing you know the bank tellers will want tips.......
That was a cool move! I'm sure the group would have paid. Yeah right! HAHAHA, that was all part of the lesson how to be a snowboarder. You should have reported him to the ski school. If I was his supervisor, I would have thrown a few more privates his way!
post #63 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Dunn
That's brilliant lshull. Just because I don't overpay for a lesson doesn't mean I can't rip circles around you. I do just fine. I've also never taken a golf lesson and can consistently shoot in the mid 70's. Part of the challenge of both sports, to me, is to get better on my own.
But Do You Have Room For Improvement? Yes or No.

I never said I was beter than you either. All I'm saying is that EVERYONE can benifit from some sort of coaching. EVERYONE can get better. So what if you shoot in the 70's playing golf. Are you on the PGA tour? If not well, then you can still improve your golf game. And I'm still willing to bet your fastest way to improvement is with a coach, weather or not you want or even think you need their help or not. If you think you doing OK, great, keep doing what your doing. If you REALLY want to get better, find a coach.

L
post #64 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayview
Once the bill arrives the instructor said he'll be right back he's going to the rest room. That was the last time we saw him, he bolted.
Totally classless thing to do, the group I"m sure would have picked up his part of the tab but to just bolt was unbelieveably rude.......
The saddest part of that story is that the instructor missed the opportunity to feel the thanks of his students. I measure the tip not by the dead president on the paper but by the heartfelt appreciation of the person saying thanks. Believe it or not a fiver from the parent whose kid has just scored their first black diamond is more warmly appreciated than the c-note from some RB that was just glad to palm their kid off for a few hours so they could go play.
post #65 of 86
A friend of mine got a huge tray of lasagne today! man, she was stoked. She'll eat for a week on that. Now THAT is a tip!
post #66 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman
Spoken as if you've never read a history book. :
Wow, how much of my post did you read?
Did you miss the reference to the Craft Guilds of the Middle Ages and Renaissance?
Or the compliment of the Unions when they really did offer a superior value employee through training, testing, and certification, circa 1930s?
Maybe because I spoke from first hand knowledge of Modern 21st century history and the total dessication of the city of Schenectady, NY by the electrical workers unions bringing GE to it's knees until they, GE, found standing room down south and offshore and the Schenectady workers now have ??? to show for all those union dues and days on the picket line?
post #67 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by lshull
But Do You Have Room For Improvement? Yes or No.

I never said I was beter than you either. All I'm saying is that EVERYONE can benifit from some sort of coaching. EVERYONE can get better. So what if you shoot in the 70's playing golf. Are you on the PGA tour? If not well, then you can still improve your golf game. And I'm still willing to bet your fastest way to improvement is with a coach, weather or not you want or even think you need their help or not. If you think you doing OK, great, keep doing what your doing. If you REALLY want to get better, find a coach.

L
Apparently you missed my comment about the challenge being that I try to get better on my own. I'm not into paying too much money for a lesson. I've done just fine so far, and I'm pretty sure I can improve on my own accord. That's just my philosophy though.
post #68 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Dunn
Apparently you missed my comment about the challenge being that I try to get better on my own. I'm not into paying too much money for a lesson. I've done just fine so far, and I'm pretty sure I can improve on my own accord. That's just my philosophy though.
Apparently you didn't read the part were I said "If you think you doing OK, great, keep doing what your doing." And if read carefully I never said "Run out to ski school and take a bunch of lessons." I said "Find a coach". That can be ANY knowlegable person who can help you learn what in our skiing (or golf game) that we can improve and how to make it better. That's all. I help folks I ski with all the time, not just folks that pay me. That includes family memebers, and other instructors I ski with. Harry, I'm not buying your argument that you can improve just fine on your own. It's sounds like you just don't want to improve (or just don't want to pay to do it.) I'll never understand why people (not necessarily Harry) will spend litterally THOUSANDS of dollars on this sport and flat out refuse to spend just a little more to make it more enjoyable. It's a mystery...

L
post #69 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by lshull
Harry, I'm not buying your argument that you can improve just fine on your own. It's sounds like you just don't want to improve (or just don't want to pay to do it.) I'll never understand why people (not necessarily Harry) will spend litterally THOUSANDS of dollars on this sport and flat out refuse to spend just a little more to make it more enjoyable. It's a mystery...

L
Like I said a few times, lschull, I like the challenge of learning by myself. If I venture into the BC in the future, then I'll be taking a lesson for sure... otherwise, I don't see it in the future. I've got plenty of time to improve.
post #70 of 86
Then good luck with that.
post #71 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arby
The past couple years I have been taking a 3 hour private lesson from the same guy at a major western resort. The price for this lesson is $325. I think over $100 per hour is plenty to spend to learn how to slide down a snow covered hill. Now I'm supposed to slip him another 30 or 40 bucks? Gimme a break. When the three hours is up, he bolts for the base and I barely have time to say thanks.

If I was an instructor and my guests were paying $325 bucks to ski with me for a couple hours, I would not expect a tip.

that instructor probably mad around 30 - 40 dollars for that 3 hours; the resort pocketed the rest. Additionally, most instructors only get paid for time actually spent teaching, not the additional hours they are REQUIRED to be on the job.
post #72 of 86
This topic has been done, re-done, and done again...

Check these threads....

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=19196

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=19422
post #73 of 86
People: If you want to tip a ski instructor 15%-25%, go ahead but I wouldn't tip them at all. Especially for the reason a lot of you seem to: Pity*. Let me explain...
I've worked as a porter, a waiter, host, bartender, etc. I've also worked as an Art teacher (in an art centre, not within a school) and an ESL teacher.

I wasn't paid much in any of the teaching positions, but I would have been crestfallen if someone had tipped me. To me the teacher-student relationship precludes tipping, the waiter/porter/bartender positions are SERVICE postions. That is, you are there do eat and drink and they are there to assist, in the most discreet role possible.
In many places waitstaff get a "special" minimum wage that is LOWER than regualr minimum wage - that is because there is an assumption, on the government's behalf, that customers will tip, thereby supplementing their income. Clearly, even the government sees these positions as tip-dependent.

Ski instructors are a different matter. Like teachers and professors they are EXPERTS in their field. When you employ a ski instructor it is NOT the same thing as using the services of a waiter. In the restaurant you are Supreme and every whim is catered to. On the mountain, the instructor is Supreme and you are lucky to be in her company, you have paid to be in her company - to watch and listen and learn. As soon as you see the instructor ski there is no doubt: you are the students, they are the experts.

To me, tipping a teacher borders on rude. Did you drop a $5 in the prof's hat on the way out of English Lit class? That apple you brought to Ms. Suzy the Grade One teacher - was that a token of affection -or a tip? Tipping teachers of any sort degrades the relationship.

Also: ANYONE who asks for a tip should not get a tip - If there are any vets of the service industry who disagree, let me know why.

Asking for a tip is similar to tipping a teacher: wrong because it degrades the relationship by switching power positions.
With a teacher you are always the student, therefore you cannot tip because you assuming the position of power, and that belongs to the teacher.
With a customer, a waiter, etc cannot ask for a tip because the waiter then assumes the postion of power, which is rightfully the customer's.

Now, a teacher or ski instructor asking for a tip - that's really tacky. If you feel you're not paid enough tell management you're forced to beg customers for tips - that should change your situation.


* "they don't get paid what they're worth" (Neither do school teachers. Start you're pity-tipping there...if you dare.)
post #74 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchool
* "they don't get paid what they're worth" (Neither do school teachers. Start you're pity-tipping there...if you dare.)
I could not agree more. I feel every classroom teacher who is face to face with the students should get a doubling of their salary. Then four of every five parasite vice principles, counselors, and other bureaucratic BS positions should be eliminated. However, this is the end result of a powerful union (as discussed above). Those that deserve get little of what they deserve, and a bunch of parasite do nothings get the lions share while the customer is forced to pay more and more for less and less.
post #75 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchool
Ski instructors are a different matter. Like teachers and professors they are EXPERTS in their field. When you employ a ski instructor it is NOT the same thing as using the services of a waiter.
That's not true at all. I know plenty of people who take private lessons because they want someone to show them around the mountain. Basically they want an expensive guide service.
post #76 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stache
I could not agree more. I feel every classroom teacher who is face to face with the students should get a doubling of their salary. Then four of every five parasite vice principles, counselors, and other bureaucratic BS positions should be eliminated. However, this is the end result of a powerful union (as discussed above). Those that deserve get little of what they deserve, and a bunch of parasite do nothings get the lions share while the customer is forced to pay more and more for less and less.
What you fail to realize Stache is that this country was built into a global economic powerhouse largely through the ingenuity of management. You seem to think that all managers are worthless and that only the front line worker is contributing.
post #77 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjb
... through the ingenuity of management.
YES, the bureaucratic overload and deadwood NO!

I only said eliminate four out of five not all. Streamline the sucker and get back to that ingenuity that comes from the need to be more effective not more colossal.
post #78 of 86
Originally Posted by OldSchool
Ski instructors are a different matter. Like teachers and professors they are EXPERTS in their field. When you employ a ski instructor it is NOT the same thing as using the services of a waiter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vinn
That's not true at all. I know plenty of people who take private lessons because they want someone to show them around the mountain. Basically they want an expensive guide service.
So are they hiring an expert for her knowledge, or hiring someone to do up their buckles, pour hot chocolate, etc?
They're hiring her for her knowledge, so it is the same.
post #79 of 86
Wait a minute!!!!!!

You mean I'm NOT supposed to be buckling boots and pouring hot chocolate?

Oh , damn... Am I in trouble.......!
post #80 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stache
Wow, how much of my post did you read?
Did you miss the reference to the Craft Guilds of the Middle Ages and Renaissance?
Or the compliment of the Unions when they really did offer a superior value employee through training, testing, and certification, circa 1930s?
Maybe because I spoke from first hand knowledge of Modern 21st century history and the total dessication of the city of Schenectady, NY by the electrical workers unions bringing GE to it's knees until they, GE, found standing room down south and offshore and the Schenectady workers now have ??? to show for all those union dues and days on the picket line?
If you are talking solely about the failures of unions during the latter half of the 20th century and beyond, yes, I'd agree with what you've said to an extent.

However, I would note that the very best Wal Mart employee is still going to make less than the average Albertson's employee. And why is that?
post #81 of 86
For the exact same reason ski areas are having to "import" cheap college kid labor from overseas. Government handout programs make it impossible for the ski areas to employ off season farmers and construction people at minimum wage jobs when those folks can sit home and collect 26 weeks of unemployment or other gov't freebies rather than have to work. Wal-Mart actually conducts "employee training" on how to fill out the paperwork for food stamps and gov't healthcare because the wages they pay are so low their workers qualify.
post #82 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stache
For the exact same reason ski areas are having to "import" cheap college kid labor from overseas. Government handout programs make it impossible for the ski areas to employ off season farmers and construction people at minimum wage jobs when those folks can sit home and collect 26 weeks of unemployment or other gov't freebies rather than have to work.
Farmers should work for ski areas for minimum wage?

That doesn't make any sense. No one, with the possible exception of high school students, should be making the minimum wage.

Quote:
Wal-Mart actually conducts "employee training" on how to fill out the paperwork for food stamps and gov't healthcare because the wages they pay are so low their workers qualify.
Perhaps they should pay their workers a more reasonable wage.


And BTW, you completely dodged the question. Your response has zero to do with why employees of one retail giant are paid far less than employees of another retail giant, which is the question I posed.
post #83 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stache
I could not agree more. I feel every classroom teacher who is face to face with the students should get a doubling of their salary.
Even the English teacher that inspired the TITLE to this thread???
post #84 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman
And BTW, you completely dodged the question. Your response has zero to do with why employees of one retail giant are paid far less than employees of another retail giant, which is the question I posed.
I accept your BTW only because I did not clearly spell it out for you.

Albertsons pays more because they have to (union). Shop Rite used to pay more because they had to (union). Shop Rite has vanished from my market area. Can't say much about Albertsons as there are none in the Northeast.
Wal-Mart doen't pay more because they don't have to and they sneakily get around it by "helping" their employees get the gov't to subsidise their substandard pay. Perhaps if there were not the gov't givaways the Wal-mart workers would find a job elsewhere or Wal-mart might have to pony up enough to get people to come to work for them.

At the risk of sounding tlike the old fart that I am...
Farmer's, farm helpers, carpenter's, mason's, and guys like myself who twenty years ago owned and operated a landscaping business in the summer and worked in the ski industry winters, if anyone can take five months off work because they "made hay while the sun shined" then saved and/or budgeted wisely GREAT! If they desire to do something in the winter to keep busy and want to catch chairs or blow snow for minimum wage or whatever the mountains are paying just to keep a little cash flow going Ok too.

I am very pro-customer and not exactly anti-union except when the union does nothing to show their members deserve a better wage except getting everyone to agree to not work. This does not serve the customer well.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/s...29-strike.html


Ronald Regan will always be remembered by me for his answer to the PATCO workers. "You don't like $70 grand a year?? Ok I'll go see if somebody else does." Lee Iacocca to the UAW circa 1980 "I have NO jobs that pay $27.50 an hour. I have thousands of jobs that pay $15 an hour. Do we close the plants or do we make cars?"

I just believe that the free market system brings out the best for the customer and union or gov't forced intervention does not bring better value to the marketplace.

If the Instructor does or gives something more than the customer expected then that should be recognized, if it is mandated by the Instructor or school asking or by union rules forcing a tip then the customer's appreciation is circumvented and the recognition for a job well done is totally Lost!
post #85 of 86
Great moments in unfair labour practices:
Wonder what you guys think of this - what Wal-Mart does if it's employees have the wherewithal to form a union:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/business/nat...rt-050209.html

Maybe we can drive them out of Canada!
Quote:
Wal-Mart...is facing certification applications at about a dozen other locations in Quebec, Saskatchewan and British Columbia – including applications representing workers at seven Wal-Mart Tire & Lube Express departments in B.C.
post #86 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stache
Perhaps if there were not the gov't givaways the Wal-mart workers would find a job elsewhere or Wal-mart might have to pony up enough to get people to come to work for them.
Perhaps. Of course, you have zero evidence to substantiate that claim, and finding said evidence may prove quite difficult.

On the other hand, its very easy to point out that workers for unionized retail giants make more money doing the same job as workers for non unionized giants.
Quote:
At the risk of sounding tlike the old fart that I am...
Farmer's, farm helpers, carpenter's, mason's, and guys like myself who twenty years ago owned and operated a landscaping business in the summer and worked in the ski industry winters, if anyone can take five months off work because they "made hay while the sun shined" then saved and/or budgeted wisely GREAT! If they desire to do something in the winter to keep busy and want to catch chairs or blow snow for minimum wage or whatever the mountains are paying just to keep a little cash flow going Ok too.
"Or whatever the mountains are paying" is an important caveat. If mountains were unable to import their workforce, do you think that amount would increase? Or do you think they'd simply stop offering the profitable services that they enjoy tremendously low labor costs for?

Quote:
I am very pro-customer and not exactly anti-union except when the union does nothing to show their members deserve a better wage except getting everyone to agree to not work. This does not serve the customer well.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/s...29-strike.html
So in your mind, it is automatically the union's fault for the labor talks failing. What possible alternate method of negotiation do you have to suggest? In the Von's case, the workers were offered massive pay and benefits cuts (ironically due to Wal Mart's arrival) and the management refused to budge.

When you finally see a strike, it is because many hundreds of man hours of negotiations have been fruitless. This can certainly be due to a stubborn workforce (note that I don't say union, the workers elect their representatives) or it can be due to stubborn management. In some cases, a mixture of both.

Quote:
Ronald Regan will always be remembered by me for his answer to the PATCO workers. "You don't like $70 grand a year?? Ok I'll go see if somebody else does."
Oddly, I tend to remember him for crippling air traffic control and leaving our skies less safe. Of all the things, no idea why that stands out in my mind.

Quote:
I just believe that the free market system brings out the best for the customer and union or gov't forced intervention does not bring better value to the marketplace.
The people making your goods in inhumane and criminal conditions overseas certainly bring you better value. I suppose its a good thing they don't unionize, eh?

Government intervention in exporting hazardous materials, or importing cheap labor don't bring you better value. Government be damned.

Why are the southern/western states so soft on border security and immigration law? No one wants their cheap workforce deported.
Quote:
If the Instructor does or gives something more than the customer expected then that should be recognized, if it is mandated by the Instructor or school asking or by union rules forcing a tip then the customer's appreciation is circumvented and the recognition for a job well done is totally Lost!
If you noticed a recent rather high profile and local case, you'd know that gratuities cannot be mandatory. The law does not support the idea of a mandatory gratuity, restaurant owners be damned. A mandatory service charge, however, is just dandy.

If the industry decides it should be more upfront about which pockets their hard earned money is going into, I would suppose they've been provided a better value.
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